Questions about the timing of the thousand years

DavidPT said:

And I thought my writing style was bad. I can't make out half of what those notes are even saying. I have never owned nor read a Geneva Bible. I don't think I'm missing out on much if it has notes like that throughout.

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You need to dig deep and see what the Church believes about these matters. The current wave of false prophecy is dangerous.

DavidPT said:

Is this implying there would be believers during the millennium who are not yet immortal?

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Hi DavidPT! Thanks for the reply. I believe there will be some believers, both Jew and Gentile, who will survive the tribulation without taking the mark and enter the Kingdom in their mortal bodies. Isaiah 65:20 makes it clear that some people in the Kingdom will die, indicating that they are still in their mortal bodies (also the fact that they will have children, Isaiah 65:23).

DavidPT said:

Maybe so, yet I don't find the Geneva Bible notes being all that helpful if I can't make out half of what it is saying.

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If you begin with Jesus' description of the Kingdom (it is spiritual and not physical like the Pharisees taught), and make the OT conform to this, it is easier to grasp the meaning of the OT prophecies.

DavidPT said:

I fully agree there will be mortals during the millennium. I don't know if I agree some of them will be believers though. If they were already believers before the millennium began, why didn't they simply get caught up together in the clouds with the rest of the saints who are still alive and remain when Christ returns? Let me guess, keeping in mind, only a guess here, which means I could be wrong. Perhaps you feel the rapture isn't the 2nd coming, but is the coming for the church before the trib begins?

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You are correct, sir. From my study of the Bible, I think that view resolves more problems than it creates, and it makes the most sense to me.

DavidPT said:

5----does satan still act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not?

I asked this question in the OP. If the thousand years have already been in progress for the past 2000 years, Amils have to undeniably agree satan continues to act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not.

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How are you reasoning that? Why would we have to agree that satan continues to act as god of this world? Because there's evil here? The passage isn't speaking to evil - in general - the text states that satan is bound against deceiving the nations (only). I'll have to look it up where I read this - but the chains can represent the Word of God that hinder satan (and the Gospel was preached to all the nations - which was specifically referring to the Gospel going out to the Gentiles).

Just because there's disbelief in this world doesn't automatically mean that's credited to satan. We have free will (I believe, anyway).

Quoting from the linked article:
In this concluding section of the Apocalypse, the doom of Satan and his retinue and the renewal of creation are depicted. It begins with Satan's binding. How was Satan bound during the time of Christ's first advent? On this question much confusion has arisen. On first glance, one could easily get the impression that Christ's Second Coming is being spoken of in these first three verses of Revelation twenty. Nonetheless, upon deeper reflection, these verses can be seen as clearly illustrating in symbolic form what occurred at Christ's first coming. On this question, many authors have added their valuable insights.

The coming of Christ brought also the coming of the proclamation of the Gospel: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the Kingdom of God is being preached" (Luke 16:16, NIV).

When Christ sent His disciples out, they returned saying:

"Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He [Christ] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:17b-20)
Author G. R. Beasley-Murray (pp. 284-285) ties this all together by saying:

Admittedly a great chain is used to bind the powerful enemy, but the chain is a symbol for the word of God, which reduces Satan to impotence. As with the hosts of evil (19:19ff) so with their leader: 'A word shall quickly slay him' (Luther)
The crucial question also arises: "If Satan has been bound all this time since Christ's first coming because of the preaching of the Gospel, why is there so much deception still evident in the world today?" There is more than one possible answer to this observation.

Chapter III: A.2.
What does the binding of Satan entail? First, we need to be sure we understand the context of the statement. Siegbert W. Becker (p. 298) has this to say on the matter:

The context tells us that it is a chain which prevents the devil from deceiving the nations any longer, that is, it prevents, or hinders, the devil in his attempts to lead men astray into eternal damnation. From the Bible we know of only one thing that can do this. It is the preaching of the gospel, the 'Good News" that the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (I Jn 3:8). This is to be proclaimed to 'every creature' (Mk 16:15) and to 'all nations' (Mt 28:19). What John said in his description of the sequel to the 'war in heaven' (cp 12:7-12) is surely apropos here, namely, 'They won the victory over him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony' (12:11). So long as the gospel is preached to the nations, the devil will be hindered in his attempt to deceive the nations. The more widely and the more purely the gospel is proclaimed, the shorter Satan's chain becomes.

Second, it is needful to note that the word translated "nations" in Revelation 20:3 is ethna, the Greek word used for the non-Jewish peoples, that is, the Gentiles. Here the thought is that now has come a time when the Gentiles would also be given the Word of God freely. Such a time commenced at the time when Christ began the New Testament Church and it began to understand and fulfill Christ's directive in Matthew 28 to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel.

Philip Edgcumbe Hughes' comments are helpful here:

Prior to the incarnation, the nations had been permitted to remain in the darkness and ignorance induced by Satan's deception. They had 'walked in their own ways' (Acts 14:16). In striking contrast to this, Israel alone of all the peoples on earth had been entrusted with the oracles of God (Rom. 3:2); they had the knowledge and the enlightenment that God's revelation brings. . . . No longer, then, are the nations left in the shadows of superstition; for God's salvation has been 'prepared in the presence of all peoples' and Christ is the light of divine revelation to the nations as well as the glory of God's people Israel (Luke 2:30-32). And no longer are the people of God to keep themselves separate; for their commission is now to proclaim the gospel message to the farthest parts of the earth so that the fullness of the nations may be brought in (Mt. 24:14; 28:19f.; Rom. 10:12f.; 11:25).
When St. Paul went to Athens and stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus, after pointing to their altar TO AN UNKNOWN GOD, he makes this amazing statement: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, BUT NOW HE COMMANDS ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT" (Acts 17:30, NIV)

And in like manner to the Gentiles encountered by Paul and Barnabas at Lystra (who thought that Paul and Barnabas were gods come down in human form), the apostles told them: "In the past, He [God] let all nations [the ethna the Gentiles] go their own way" (Acts 14:16)

St. Paul also goes into great depth in Romans eleven showing how God grafted the Gentiles in the "cultivated olive tree" (Rom. 11:24, NIV), after part of Israel proved itself unfaithful due to unbelief. ~ The 1000 Years - What Does That Mean?

DavidPT said:

Let's examine this portion of the passage.

Let's start with verse 3----But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost

Is that still applicable even today? Or assuming satan was bound 2000 years ago, should we then conclude this can no longer happen anymore, because satan is now bound?

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The power of satan to deceive has been overtaken and limited now that God has manifested Himself in Jesus and the gospel has been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews. IOW - God is MORE powerful than satan.

So - no, I don't believe this is applicable today (but that doesn't mean we can't draw lessons from it). That also doesn't mean that once a person hears the Gospel they automatically accept it. I don't believe that's what these passages refer to. I believe you're placing this (or trying to, anyway) into a different framework than what it was written in.

(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

DavidPT said:

Here's some of my reasoning then.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Let's examine this portion of the passage.

Let's start with verse 3----But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost

Is that still applicable even today? Or assuming satan was bound 2000 years ago, should we then conclude this can no longer happen anymore, because satan is now bound?


Verse 4 is obviously referring to the lost meant in verse 3. Verse 4 then indicates---In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not


Since there are still lost people in this world, and that there has continually been lost people in this world for the past 2000 years, that would inicate verse 4 is still applicable, even today. We then end up with verse 4 being applicable during the period of time Amils are claiming the thousand years are taking place.

The only time when verse 4 can not be applicable is when satan is in the pit, and when satan has been cast into the LOF.

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When we look to the parable of the sower, we see that satan is responsible for only SOME of the kingdom not taking root. People can reject the kingdom perfectly on their own, without being deceived by satan. We see that those who face tribulation and those who care more about the world can reject God's kingdom all without being deceived by satan. So I would argue that just because Satan is bound during the millennium and cannot deceive, doesn't mean people won't reject the kingdom of God all on their own.


Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

If satan is out prowling to deceive and blind those as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4, it seems that this would be occurring after the millennium, as Paul sees satan's end coming soon.

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

To the point of people not believing or not grasping the Truth of Christ (totally independent of Satan's intervention of deception) is an example of the disciples recorded in Mark (after Jesus had performed the miracle of feeding the multitudes):


Mark 6:52 (NASB) for they had not gained any insight from the incident of the loaves, but their heart was hardened.

.....and from that same passage, Ray Stedman explains:

Do you Not Yet Understand?

This is why the number seven appears so often in the book of Revelation, because there God is manifesting himself, stepping out of the mystery of his being into full revelation before all of his creation.

What Jesus is saying here is, "If you want to know God this way, if your heart hungers as Paul's did -- "... that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death," (Philippians 3:10) -- the way to know him is to learn to feed upon him in daily satisfaction of your heart's need, and to reckon upon him. This involves the Word of God: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God," (Matthew 4:4 RSV). And then it means believing this Word, rejoicing in the One who gives it. This is feeding upon Christ.

Did these disciples learn this lesson? Unfortunately, they didn't. They were just like us. The account tells us what happened, Verse 10:

And he sent them away; and immediately he got into the boat with his disciples, and went to the district of Dalmanutha. (Marl 8:10 RSV)

Dalmanutha is across the lake, on the western side, near the present city of Tiberias.

The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven, to test him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and said, "Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation." (Mark 8:11-12 RSV)

What shall we make of this invasion of his ministry by the Pharisees again? It is obvious that they are totally blinded men. Here they come and ask him for a sign after they themselves had seen hundreds of signs he had done. But they are determined not to believe in him. And yet, to disguise this fact, by an apparent eagerness to know more of his ministry, they demand this sign. Now, it is true that the Old Testament says that any prophet must give a sign to people, to prove he is indeed a prophet. We need to know this today. When prophets speak, there ought to be some sign that they are from God. In the Old Testament the sign was that they could predict something which was going to happen in the near future, and it would be fulfilled exactly as predicted. Those whose predictions are not accurately fulfilled are giving clear evidence that they are not prophets from God.

But our Lord refused to give any sign, because he knew these men. He knew their hardened hearts, knew that they were beyond belief in a sign. Matthew says that he added the words, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," (Matthew 12:39-40 RSV). That is, the only sign that would be given them was the sign of the resurrection. Yet it is true that when the resurrection did occur, these Pharisees did not believe even this sign. So no sign would be given to them. Jesus refused to work a miracle. Leaving them in their blindness and stubborn determination to unbelief, he departed.

And he left them, and getting into the boat again he departed to the other side.

Now they[the disciples] had forgotten to bring bread; and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. And he cautioned them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of Herod." And they discussed it with one another, saying, "We have no bread." (Mark 8:13-16 RSV)

I do not know if you can, but I cannot understand why they said, "We have no bread," when he said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Herodians" -- except that it indicates the workings of a bad conscience. They had forgotten to buy bread, and they thought he was rebuking them for that. The moment he mentioned leaven, which is remotely connected with bread, they tied it in, due to their bad consciences, with their failure to bring enough bread for lunch. That is how dull and confused they were, how completely they failed to understand what he was saying.

It was very much like the husband who said to his wife, "Where did you get that dress?" To which she replied, "Well, it was 40% off!" There is no connection between the question and the answer, except a bad conscience. I think that was the case here.

Our Lord had intended to warn them of what produces dullness, what produces the condition they had just witnessed with the Pharisees. What in the world makes men so incredibly blind that, when One is standing before them doing all these wonderful signs and speaking these marvelous words, they should nevertheless insist upon another sign? He was warning them of what produces the condition because they were in danger of doing the same thing themselves. He put it in these graphic terms: "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of Herod." Leaven is a picture of evil doctrine or teaching. He was saying, "The reason the Pharisees are so blind is because of what they believe, what they teach. The reason Herod cannot recognize me is because of what he believes, what he teaches."

mkgal1 said:

Quoting from the linked article:
In this concluding section of the Apocalypse, the doom of Satan and his retinue and the renewal of creation are depicted. It begins with Satan's binding. How was Satan bound during the time of Christ's first advent? On this question much confusion has arisen. On first glance, one could easily get the impression that Christ's Second Coming is being spoken of in these first three verses of Revelation twenty. Nonetheless, upon deeper reflection, these verses can be seen as clearly illustrating in symbolic form what occurred at Christ's first coming. On this question, many authors have added their valuable insights.

The coming of Christ brought also the coming of the proclamation of the Gospel: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the Kingdom of God is being preached" (Luke 16:16, NIV).

When Christ sent His disciples out, they returned saying:

"Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He [Christ] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:17b-20)
Author G. R. Beasley-Murray (pp. 284-285) ties this all together by saying:

Admittedly a great chain is used to bind the powerful enemy, but the chain is a symbol for the word of God, which reduces Satan to impotence. As with the hosts of evil (19:19ff) so with their leader: 'A word shall quickly slay him' (Luther)
The crucial question also arises: "If Satan has been bound all this time since Christ's first coming because of the preaching of the Gospel, why is there so much deception still evident in the world today?" There is more than one possible answer to this observation.

Chapter III: A.2.
What does the binding of Satan entail? First, we need to be sure we understand the context of the statement. Siegbert W. Becker (p. 298) has this to say on the matter:

The context tells us that it is a chain which prevents the devil from deceiving the nations any longer, that is, it prevents, or hinders, the devil in his attempts to lead men astray into eternal damnation. From the Bible we know of only one thing that can do this. It is the preaching of the gospel, the 'Good News" that the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (I Jn 3:8). This is to be proclaimed to 'every creature' (Mk 16:15) and to 'all nations' (Mt 28:19). What John said in his description of the sequel to the 'war in heaven' (cp 12:7-12) is surely apropos here, namely, 'They won the victory over him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony' (12:11). So long as the gospel is preached to the nations, the devil will be hindered in his attempt to deceive the nations. The more widely and the more purely the gospel is proclaimed, the shorter Satan's chain becomes.

Second, it is needful to note that the word translated "nations" in Revelation 20:3 is ethna, the Greek word used for the non-Jewish peoples, that is, the Gentiles. Here the thought is that now has come a time when the Gentiles would also be given the Word of God freely. Such a time commenced at the time when Christ began the New Testament Church and it began to understand and fulfill Christ's directive in Matthew 28 to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel.

Philip Edgcumbe Hughes' comments are helpful here:

Prior to the incarnation, the nations had been permitted to remain in the darkness and ignorance induced by Satan's deception. They had 'walked in their own ways' (Acts 14:16). In striking contrast to this, Israel alone of all the peoples on earth had been entrusted with the oracles of God (Rom. 3:2); they had the knowledge and the enlightenment that God's revelation brings. . . . No longer, then, are the nations left in the shadows of superstition; for God's salvation has been 'prepared in the presence of all peoples' and Christ is the light of divine revelation to the nations as well as the glory of God's people Israel (Luke 2:30-32). And no longer are the people of God to keep themselves separate; for their commission is now to proclaim the gospel message to the farthest parts of the earth so that the fullness of the nations may be brought in (Mt. 24:14; 28:19f.; Rom. 10:12f.; 11:25).
When St. Paul went to Athens and stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus, after pointing to their altar TO AN UNKNOWN GOD, he makes this amazing statement: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, BUT NOW HE COMMANDS ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT" (Acts 17:30, NIV)

And in like manner to the Gentiles encountered by Paul and Barnabas at Lystra (who thought that Paul and Barnabas were gods come down in human form), the apostles told them: "In the past, He [God] let all nations [the ethna the Gentiles] go their own way" (Acts 14:16)

St. Paul also goes into great depth in Romans eleven showing how God grafted the Gentiles in the "cultivated olive tree" (Rom. 11:24, NIV), after part of Israel proved itself unfaithful due to unbelief. ~ The 1000 Years - What Does That Mean?

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That is all well and good, believable even... but what about the resurrection of the saints and the judgement given to those sitting on the thrones in Revelation 20:4? If the chain represents the word of God, what does the abyss mean? What about the seal? The wording in this passage says Satan will be bound, tossed in the abyss, and a seal will be placed upon it! It clearly indicates that Satan will be completely removed from any interference on Earth during the 1000 years, yet demonic activity continues to rear it's ugly head over and over again over the last 2000 years. Who was the angel that visited Muhammed? Who has, and continues to, inspire such hatred of the Jewish people? Who inspired the mass murders of the last century by Hitler, Stalin, etc.?

Also, why has God begun to regather the Jewish people into their ancient homeland? If God is done with dealing with literal Israel, this fact makes no sense. Yet if God is going to bring about a physical Kingdom centered in Jerusalem, in which He will literally fulfill His promises to literal Israel, this development makes perfect sense.

I just don't see how Satan is in any way bound, tossed into a sealed prison, and prevented from deceiving the ethnos (Nations, people, gentiles) over the last 2000 years... and this does not take into account the numerous Old Testament promises yet to be fulfilled. Yes, I believe there will be a future earthly kingdom ruled over by Jesus Christ Himself.

Maybe there are good answers to these questions, and if there are, I am very eager to hear them.

God bless, sister;
Michael

DavidPT said:

3----can saints be persecuted and killed during the thousand years?

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I don't see anything in Scripture that says that they can't be (nor won't be). The binding of satan is due to what Christ's death on the cross did to the Accuser's leverage (Jesus "took away the sin of this world"; He defeated death - removed it's sting).....but Christ hasn't taken away humanity's free will.

DavidPT said:

how can this persecution not involve satan's participation? If he is locked away in the pit though, how is he also participating in the persecution and killing of saints at the same time?

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For one thing: you seem to be thinking of satan as a physical entity. He is not. He is a spirit.

Secondly - as Claninja posted earlier (paraphrasing) people do evil well all by their own selves. They don't need Satan pulling their strings.

food4thought said:

yet demonic activity continues to rear it's ugly head over and over again over the last 2000 years.

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Evil is evil. That doesn't mean it's coming directly from satan or his influence.

food4thought said:

That is all well and good, believable even... but what about the resurrection of the saints and the judgement given to those sitting on the thrones in Revelation 20:4?

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What about it, specifically?

food4thought said:

and this does not take into account the numerous Old Testament promises yet to be fulfilled. Yes, I believe there will be a future earthly kingdom ruled over by Jesus Christ Himself.

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Is that the only promise you're waiting for - or can you name others? You may be waiting a LOOOOONG time (if not, forever).