Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)

Grip Docility

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I think there are some logical/philosophical errors in your OP. You think that some thing means some other thing, but it is not so.

For example, predetermination (and foreknowledge) of all events by God does not make Him limited or responsible for our evils.

If we are not forced to act in a specific way, then we are responsible, no matter how probable our choice was.

I appreciate the feedback. I most definitely agree that it is the creation and not the Creator that is responsible for Evil.

As for “Pre Determinism”... that’s an even sharper form of Determination.

Foreknowledge? I would say that binding that “Foreknowledge” to traintracks Of one Dimensional Omniscience is a slippery slope towards limiting the Almighty.

The debate portion of me wants to point something out... but the ... awwww... I’ll follow through...

The term Determinism and Pre Determinism are both logical inconsistencies that misinterpret portions of scripture while conflating God’s Omni-Dimentional Mind with mans Finite Mind.

I reckon I’m saying the quoted posit actually has a logical inconsistency within it... as well as uses the words logical/philosophical errors. Was this pre determined? :)
 
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trophy33

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I appreciate the feedback. I most definitely agree that it is the creation and not the Creator that is responsible for Evil.

As for “Pre Determinism”... that’s an even sharper form of Determination.

Foreknowledge? I would say that binding that “Foreknowledge” to traintracks Of one Dimensional Omniscience is a slippery slope towards limiting the Almighty.

The debate portion of me wants to point something out... but the ... awwww... I’ll follow through...

The term Determinism and Pre Determinism are both logical inconsistencies that misinterpret portions of scripture while conflating God’s Omni-Dimentional Mind with mans Finite Mind.

I reckon I’m saying the quoted posit actually has a logical inconsistency within it... as well as uses the words logical/philosophical errors. Was this pre determined? :)
I am not sure what you are saying :)

Maybe, for the start, you can formulate logical or moral problems with predetermination and foreknowledge you see.
 
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Grip Docility

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I am not sure what you are saying :)

Maybe, for the start, you can formulate logical or moral problems with predetermination and foreknowledge you see.

Foreknowledge is a biblical word...

15 Bible verses about God's Foreknowledge

It is written to us, in scripture.... from our perspective to reveal God’s Divine knowledge of all things.

When we examine its actual use, we find it is abused and misconstrued from many perspectives of known theology.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Here.... we see that God is speaking of Prophecy... through Isaiah.... and uses the phrase “I will accomplish” verses what could have been “I have accomplished”...

This is a clue...

Isaiah 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

Here... this supports God speaking prophecy and God proclaiming new things... before they spring forth.

Daniel 2:8 "However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Here, again, Prophecy... with the addition of “musterion”... mystery.

Now, I’ll re-emphasize a verse...that takes some dragonology <~ conjured that word from thin air.... to comprehend. We know Satan was attempting to appear towards God as His right hand man in the OT (Zechariah 3:1 Joshua is the English way of saying Jesus) and wasn’t expelled from heavenly authority until Christ’s ascension. (Revelation 12:1-12)

Knowing this... Hebrews 2:14 assists in the why of the matter... in conjunction with Genesis 3:14-15 and Genesis 3:5... and lastly 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 with Romans 7:8

This is important because Satan is seen having linear access to timeless knowledge in Luke... Luke 4:5 ... Satan was showing all major kingdoms to come and possibly that had been... to emphasize his legitimate lordship over the souls and kingdoms of the earth... we see here... Ezekiel 28:14-15 that Satan was granted the position of a Guardian over Humanity at some point and hadn’t been removed from the position yet. It is quite possible that during Satan’s heavenly time, he was granted heavenly access to a linear form of foreknowledge.

Knowing this and recounting Luke 4:5... consider this passage, now... 1 Corinthians 2:6-10 but especially 1 Corinthians 2:8

“If they had known”... which implies that God has a strategic Omni-Dimensional Omniscience That allowed Him to thwart Satan’s plan... and further assert His Divine Authority over the angelic rebellion... beyond the abilities the pre-fall Angels had been granted.

God’s foreknowledge is not a linear wisdom of an Author that has written a book, but in the view Of Responding to His created Autonomous beings... a series of events with infinite Possibilities... where His intercession reshapes the flow of all things. In other words... God relates to Humanity and Angels with wisdom of all possible outcomes... of an infinite possibility... to bring about His Desire... (1 Peter 3:9)... and because we see that there will be losses of souls... in scripture... we know God is relating to Autonomous beings, that He granted Autonomy to.

My point is that the word foreknowledge and the word predestination need to be separated from a linear flow that reads our existence as a Divinely Determined Book... and be more understood as the manifestation of Our Creators Relational workings with Autonomous creatures... to bring about the most positive outcome possible.

This is to say that scripture reveals that God Willed it to be so... that rather than create a blind Play, or Choo Choo train on tracks where salvation is predetermined... we are experiencing genuine relation to God that is dependent on our Autonomous relation to reality and especially to God, as He Lovingly relates to all humanity... (towards us).

To be more precise... God set it up so our experience is genuine and Relationship orientated with Him... with His Omniscience fully intact and put to a use beyond our finite minds comprehension.
 
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trophy33

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Foreknowledge is a biblical word...

15 Bible verses about God's Foreknowledge

It is written to us, in scripture.... from our perspective to reveal God’s Divine knowledge of all things.

When we examine its actual use, we find it is abused and misconstrued from many perspectives of known theology.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Here.... we see that God is speaking of Prophecy... through Isaiah.... and uses the phrase “I will accomplish” verses what could have been “I have accomplished”...

This is a clue...

Isaiah 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

Here... this supports God speaking prophecy and God proclaiming new things... before they spring forth.

Daniel 2:8 "However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Here, again, Prophecy... with the addition of “musterion”... mystery.

Now, I’ll re-emphasize a verse...that takes some dragonology <~ conjured that word from thin air.... to comprehend. We know Satan was attempting to appear towards God as His right hand man in the OT (Zechariah 3:1 Joshua is the English way of saying Jesus) and wasn’t expelled from heavenly authority until Christ’s ascension. (Revelation 12:1-12)

Knowing this... Hebrews 2:14 assists in the why of the matter... in conjunction with Genesis 3:14-15 and Genesis 3:5... and lastly 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 with Romans 7:8

This is important because Satan is seen having linear access to timeless knowledge in Luke... Luke 4:5 ... Satan was showing all major kingdoms to come and possibly that had been... to emphasize his legitimate lordship over the souls and kingdoms of the earth... we see here... Ezekiel 28:14-15 that Satan was granted the position of a Guardian over Humanity at some point and hadn’t been removed from the position yet. It is quite possible that during Satan’s heavenly time, he was granted heavenly access to a linear form of foreknowledge.

Knowing this and recounting Luke 4:5... consider this passage, now... 1 Corinthians 2:6-10 but especially 1 Corinthians 2:8

“If they had known”... which implies that God has a strategic Omni-Dimensional Omniscience That allowed Him to thwart Satan’s plan... and further assert His Divine Authority over the angelic rebellion... beyond the abilities the pre-fall Angels had been granted.

God’s foreknowledge is not a linear wisdom of an Author that has written a book, but in the view Of Responding to His created Autonomous beings... a series of events with infinite Possibilities... where His intercession reshapes the flow of all things. In other words... God relates to Humanity and Angels with wisdom of all possible outcomes... of an infinite possibility... to bring about His Desire... (1 Peter 3:9)... and because we see that there will be losses of souls... in scripture... we know God is relating to Autonomous beings, that He granted Autonomy to.

My point is that the word foreknowledge and the word predestination need to be separated from a linear flow that reads our existence as a Divinely Determined Book... and be more understood as the manifestation of Our Creators Relational workings with Autonomous creatures... to bring about the most positive outcome possible.

This is to say that scripture reveals that God Willed it to be so... that rather than create a blind Play, or Choo Choo train on tracks where salvation is predetermined... we are experiencing genuine relation to God that is dependent on our Autonomous relation to reality and especially to God, as He Lovingly relates to all humanity... (towards us).

To be more precise... God set it up so our experience is genuine and Relationship orientated with Him... with His Omniscience fully intact and put to a use beyond our finite minds comprehension.

Can you please say it in one or two sentences? :) When I read your end I have no idea what you said in the beginning. I am too dumb for long multitopic texts.

I would need some elegant simple claims/formulas/definitions, it would help me understand your case on atomic levels.
 
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Grip Docility

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Can you please say it in one or two sentences? :) When I read your end I have no idea what you said in the beginning. I am too dumb for long multitopic texts.

I would need some elegant simple claims/formulas/definitions, it would help me understand your case on atomic levels.

I'm the same way. I appreciate your candid expression.

God endowed His Creatures with genuine Autonomy and thusly sees and works according to the infinite possibilities of His Creations genuine decisions out of relational Love, not Deterministic control.

Just because God knows it all, doesn't make it pre-determined. It's sincerely unfolding as He desired it to sincerely unfold, via principles of Loving Relationship.

God doesn't know existence as an author that writes a book, in a linear fashion... but in the way that knows all possible outcomes of all infinite possibilities within creation, and relationally intercedes accordingly.

As said earlier, if I, personally, intercede in a friends heroine addiction, that he developed on his own, it doesn't mean his heroine addiction was predestined.

Better?
 
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Grip Docility

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I’m beginning to believe Determinism is selected by many because it takes fewer words to say... God Predetermined it all... than to look into how God Willed Genuine Autonomy and responded sincerely relationally to His Autonomous Creations.

^_^
 
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trophy33

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God endowed His Creatures with genuine Autonomy
What is your source for this?

Just because God knows it all, doesn't make it pre-determined.
Can you explain how something can be certain to happen, but not predetermined?

God doesn't know existence as an author that writes a book, in a linear fashion... but in the way that knows all possible outcomes of all infinite possibilities within creation, and relationally intercedes accordingly.
He knew all infinite possibilities and created one - the best one. He predetermined it, chose it, from all possibilities. He did not create all possibilities.

As said earlier, if I, personally, intercede in a friends heroine addiction, that he developed on his own, it doesn't mean his heroine addiction was predestined.
I do not know how to grasp this example. You and your friend are two same level beings, both very limited. God is creator of every atom, in Him we move, breath and exist, from Him we have our substance. So, not sure how to apply your example.

A little, but there were still 4 ideas in one post :) Just one would be ideal.
 
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Grip Docility

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What is your source for this?

Romans 13:2

You can’t rebel against something if you don’t Will and act in a fashion opposite of what you are rebelling Against.

Genesis 2:16-17

Adam and Eve were endowed to even choose failure, but were warned of its consequences.

CHOOSE ye this day... and on and on.

Can you explain how something can be certain to happen, but not predetermined?

God’s foreknowledge is not a linear wisdom of an Author that has written a book, but in the view Of Responding to His created Autonomous beings... a series of events with infinite Possibilities... where His intercession reshapes the flow of all things. In other words... God relates to Humanity and Angels with wisdom of all possible outcomes... of an infinite possibility... to bring about His Desire... (1 Peter 3:9)... and because we see that there will be losses of souls... in scripture... we know God is relating to Autonomous beings, that He granted Autonomy to.

My point is that the word foreknowledge and the word predestination need to be separated from a linear flow that reads our existence as a Divinely Determined Book... and be more understood as the manifestation of Our Creators Relational workings with Autonomous creatures... to bring about the most positive outcome possible.

This is to say that scripture reveals that God Willed it to be so... that rather than create a blind Play, or Choo Choo train on tracks where salvation is predetermined... we are experiencing genuine relation to God that is dependent on our Autonomous relation to reality and especially to God, as He Lovingly relates to all humanity... (towards us).

To be more precise... God set it up so our experience is genuine and Relationship orientated with Him... with His Omniscience fully intact and put to a use beyond our finite minds comprehension.

He knew all infinite possibilities and created one - the best one. He predetermined it, chose it, from all possibilities. He did not create all possibilities.

He did not predetermine the Best one as the best one would be where He received His Desire (1 Peter 3:9).

He did not predetermine anything except for Jesus Christ.

Does scripture reveal God relating to man in a predetermined fashion at any point where God is responding to the choices of man, by Hods very own choice of verbiage?

How much stock should we Theologically put into God’s choice of phrasing matters?

Rationalizing that God can’t accomplish the feat of relating to creation in real time that defies human predetermination Logic is like rationalizing that God Can’t be the Trinity that He is.

I do not know how to grasp this example. You and your friend are two same level beings, both very limited. God is creator of every atom, in Him we move, breath and exist, from Him we have our substance. So, not sure how to apply your example.

Your ignoring the implications of Philippians 2 that speak of the very Incarnate Son Who Perfectly reveals His Father.

A little, but there were still 4 ideas in one post :) Just one would be ideal.

4 ways of conveying 1 idea towards someone who is asking to understand an idea, but is having difficulty grasping the idea is 4 different approaches to conveying 1 idea. :)

I know you’re looking for an easy way to proof your posit, but if you’re going to attempt to undermine my posit, it would be wise to take the time to revisit my posit and diatribe on Post Number 23 at the very least.

It is impossible to claim logical inconsistency of a topic when you self admittedly are having difficulty grasping the material. :)

IMO, Me thinks you’re attempting to avoid air tight arguments, to reduce the verbiage to Simple sentences that you can imply illogical ideas towards, by ignoring the diatribe that supports the validity of what I am positing, but you happen to disagree with.
 
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Grip Docility

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trophy33

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Romans 13:2

You can’t rebel against something if you don’t Will and act in a fashion opposite of what you are rebelling Against.

Genesis 2:16-17

Adam and Eve were endowed to even choose failure, but were warned of its consequences.

CHOOSE ye this day... and on and on.



God’s foreknowledge is not a linear wisdom of an Author that has written a book, but in the view Of Responding to His created Autonomous beings... a series of events with infinite Possibilities... where His intercession reshapes the flow of all things. In other words... God relates to Humanity and Angels with wisdom of all possible outcomes... of an infinite possibility... to bring about His Desire... (1 Peter 3:9)... and because we see that there will be losses of souls... in scripture... we know God is relating to Autonomous beings, that He granted Autonomy to.

My point is that the word foreknowledge and the word predestination need to be separated from a linear flow that reads our existence as a Divinely Determined Book... and be more understood as the manifestation of Our Creators Relational workings with Autonomous creatures... to bring about the most positive outcome possible.

This is to say that scripture reveals that God Willed it to be so... that rather than create a blind Play, or Choo Choo train on tracks where salvation is predetermined... we are experiencing genuine relation to God that is dependent on our Autonomous relation to reality and especially to God, as He Lovingly relates to all humanity... (towards us).

To be more precise... God set it up so our experience is genuine and Relationship orientated with Him... with His Omniscience fully intact and put to a use beyond our finite minds comprehension.



He did not predetermine the Best one as the best one would be where He received His Desire (1 Peter 3:9).

He did not predetermine anything except for Jesus Christ.

Does scripture reveal God relating to man in a predetermined fashion at any point where God is responding to the choices of man, by Hods very own choice of verbiage?

How much stock should we Theologically put into God’s choice of phrasing matters?

Rationalizing that God can’t accomplish the feat of relating to creation in real time that defies human predetermination Logic is like rationalizing that God Can’t be the Trinity that He is.



Your ignoring the implications of Philippians 2 that speak of the very Incarnate Son Who Perfectly reveals His Father.



4 ways of conveying 1 idea towards someone who is asking to understand an idea, but is having difficulty grasping the idea is 4 different approaches to conveying 1 idea. :)

I know you’re looking for an easy way to proof your posit, but if you’re going to attempt to undermine my posit, it would be wise to take the time to revisit my posit and diatribe on Post Number 23 at the very least.

It is impossible to claim logical inconsistency of a topic when you self admittedly are having difficulty grasping the material. :)

IMO, Me thinks you’re attempting to avoid air tight arguments, to reduce the verbiage to Simple sentences that you can imply illogical ideas towards, by ignoring the diatribe that supports the validity of what I am positing, but you happen to disagree with.

"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
R 13:2
- this does not constitute a philosophical autonomy of creation from God, neither does Gen 2:16

What you are talking about is just the existence of our will. But to say that our will is totally independent on other things is a quite a jump that is impossible to even imagine.
 
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Grip Docility

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"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
R 13:2
- this does not constitute a philosophical autonomy of creation from God, neither does Gen 2:16

What you are talking about is just the existence of our will. But to say that our will is totally independent on other things is a quite a jump that is impossible to even imagine.

It is only a jump to a person that believes in a God that condescends upon His creation.

Jesus Christ took up the Lowest Job a servant could take up to display God’s Glory.

Foot Washing was the most humiliating job a servant could do, in Jesus’ time. It was the ultimate class dividing act.

It is Theological understanding, through Christology, that brings the light bulb to the on position, that illuminates the TRUTH that God endowed us with a will that was in His image.

The difference? It was not His Will That we be Simple mirrors of His Will that we could Love and be Loved, out of our own Autonomous Will. Only He is perfectly selfless. We have proven time and time again that the presence of privation is something that we respond poorly to.

We do not have the ability to provide where there is no provision and that single matter challenges our Will towards failure.

You say God Did not give man Autonomy, because that would put man on Level with God. I say God have man Autonomy, Because He is God.

He died as we die. He ate as we ate. He Loved more than we can ever Love. He humbled Himself beyond any humility we can humble ourselves to. He knew NO sin, though we are perpetually marked and scared by it, only saved by His marks and scars...

He made us to be His eternal companion! Why is it so preposterous to you that He gave us genuine autonomy, again?
 
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trophy33

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It is only a jump to a person that believes in a God that condescends upon His creation.

Jesus Christ took up the Lowest Job a servant could take up to display God’s Glory.

Foot Washing was the most humiliating job a servant could do, in Jesus’ time. It was the ultimate class dividing act.

It is Theological understanding, through Christology, that brings the light bulb to the on position that God endowed us with a will that was in His image.

The difference? It was not His Will and only He is perfectly selfless. We have proven time and time again that the presence of privation is something that we respond poorly to.

We do not have the ability to provide where there is no provision and that single matter challenges our Will towards failure.

You say God Did not give man Autonomy, because that would put man on Level with God. I say God have man Autonomy, Because He is God.

He died as we die. He ate as we ate. He Loved more than we can ever Love. He humbled Himself beyond any humility we can humble ourselves to. He knew NO sin, though we are perpetually marked and scared by it, only saved by His marks and scars...

He made us to be His eternal companion! Why is it so preposterous to you that He gave us genuine autonomy, again?
The fact that Jesus washed feet of his apostles to show them that they should serve each other does not constitute any philosphical claim that our will is independent and is not influenced by our bodies, predispositions, environment etc., in the end, by the Creator.
 
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Grip Docility

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The fact that Jesus washed feet of his apostles to show them that they should serve each other does not constitute any philosphical claim that our will is independent and is not influenced by our bodies, predispositions, environment etc., in the end, by the Creator.

You are puting the horse before the cart. We have Autonomous Will. The Universe we Autonomously dwell in displays this.

You are conflating environment and Intercession with Determination!

Again, but with your spin in the Analogy... Just because God intercedes in a Heroine Addicts life, does not mean God Predestined the Heroine addiction!

This should be an elementary concept!
 
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trophy33

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You are outing the horse before the cart. We have Autonomous Will. The Universe we Autonomously dwell in displays this.

You are conflating environment and Intercession with Determination!

Again, but with your spin in the Analogy... Just because God intercedes in a Heroine Addicts life, does not mean God Predestined the Heroine addiction!

This should be an elementary concept!


Lets start by your precise definition of an autonomous will. What is it, exactly?

a) define "will"
b) define "autonomous"
c) define "autonomous will"
 
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Grip Docility

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Lets start by your precise definition of an autonomous will. What is it, exactly?

Can I “Will” matter into existence? No

Can I choose how I respond to the Universe? Yes

Can I choose where I was conceived? No

Can I choose where I was born? No

Can I choose to accept or reject the Gospel? Yes

Is Choice a predetermined illusion? No

Are there an infinite number of possibilities before me every moment of my life? Yes

Can I choose to be Immortal? Yes

Can I choose to not physically die? No

Can I choose to Love or Hate? Yes

Can I choose to forgive? Yes

Can I choose my fate? Yes
 
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trophy33

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Can I “Will” matter into existence? No

Can I choose how I respond to the Universe? Yes

Can I choose where I was conceived? No

Can I choose where I was born? No

Can I choose to accept or reject the Gospel? Yes

Is Choice a predetermined illusion? No

Are there an infinite number of possibilities before me every moment of my life? Yes

Can I choose to be Immortal? Yes

Can I choose to not physically die? No

Can I choose to Love or Hate? Yes

Can I choose to forgive? Yes

Can I choose my fate? Yes

The fact that you can choose between some things and cannot choose between others does not constitute anything new. And it does not constitute that predetermination does not exist or that our will is autonomous(independent).
 
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Grip Docility

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The fact that you can choose between some things and cannot choose between others does not constitute anything new. And it does not constitute that predetermination does not exist or that our will is autonomous(independent).

Making an unsubstantiated claim with zero support, while comprehending what I am saying serves as no valid counter point.

Autonomy remains unchallenged by the very unsubstantiated claim that you “CHOSE” to “Employ”. :)

Perhaps digging in and discussing matters beyond phrases that are kin to “My idea is more better than your idea”... would provide some enjoyable discussion.
 
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