The Pagan Firefighter

If a pagan firefighter runs into a burning building and saves a child, are his actions sinful?


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Devin P

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All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
— 1 John 5:17
What is unrighteousness though? What is righteousness?

1 John 3:7-8
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Righteousness is something you practice, and sin is the opposite to righteousness. Well, as 1 John 3:4 says, sin, is the transgression of Torah. Therefore righteousness, would be the practicing of it.

Romans 2:13 - (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The hearer's of the law aren't just, but the doers are just. If you want to be free of sin, you have to read the first five books of the bible because in those five books God lays out what He desires His children to do. It is what Jesus came to show us. He condemned the pharisees and saducees for their traditions that did away with God's law, and taught perfect obedience to His law. It's not an overnight thing though, but in time you will be able to walk in righteousness with much prayer and seeking. It's not an overnight process, but it can be done with Jesus, prayer, and patience. If you are spiritually minded, because of the grace and kindness of God, you will desire to practice His law, but if you are carnally minded, you'll hate the law, and will want nothing to do with it.

Romans 8:6-8
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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Hammster

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Have you heard of argumentum ad absurdum? It's a way of drawing out sometimes hidden absurdities in a person's thinking and arguments. My examples/questions are offered in this vein. In arguing from 1 Corinthians 10:31 as you are, you're not acknowledging any limits to the verse's application or allowing any qualification of the verse and so are susceptible to argumentum absurdum. I don't think you actually would take the verse to the extremes I've pointed out, but your seeming rigid approach to the verse's meaning makes it appear that you might. And so I employ argumentum ad absurdum to draw this out
It was absurd as you seem to think you cannot glorify God in the mundane things of life.
 
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Grip Docility

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What is unrighteousness though? What is righteousness?

1 John 3:7-8
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Righteousness is something you practice, and sin is the opposite to righteousness. Well, as 1 John 3:4 says, sin, is the transgression of Torah. Therefore righteousness, would be the practicing of it.

Romans 2:13 - (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The hearer's of the law aren't just, but the doers are just. If you want to be free of sin, you have to read the first five books of the bible because in those five books God lays out what He desires His children to do. It is what Jesus came to show us. He condemned the pharisees and saducees for their traditions that did away with God's law, and taught perfect obedience to His law. It's not an overnight thing though, but in time you will be able to walk in righteousness with much prayer and seeking. It's not an overnight process, but it can be done with Jesus, prayer, and patience. If you are spiritually minded, because of the grace and kindness of God, you will desire to practice His law, but if you are carnally minded, you'll hate the law, and will want nothing to do with it.

Romans 8:6-8
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 10:3
Romans 4:1-4
Galatians 3:27

Gal 3:27 Cross References (20 Verses)

Christ is our Righteousness... there is no other Righteousness.
 
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Hammster

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This would be the case of the woman at the well if she did what was right and left the man she was with and went back to her first husband. Without having bowed the knee to Christ such a deed would mean nothing.
I don’t see that spelled out anywhere in John 4.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I don’t see that spelled out anywhere in John 4.
That would be the logical conclusion considering Isaiah telling us our deeds are filthy rags. Abiding by the laws of divorce and remarriage would get her nowhere. She would still need Christ.
 
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Hammster

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That would be the logical conclusion considering Isaiah telling us our deeds are filthy rags. Abiding by the laws of divorce and remarriage would get her nowhere. She would still need Christ.
Okie dokie.
 
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Devin P

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Romans 10:3
Romans 4:1-4
Galatians 3:27

Gal 3:27 Cross References (20 Verses)

Christ is our Righteousness... there is no other Righteousness.
Genesis 26:4-5 -
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham was justified by faith, but the fruit of that faith, the proof of it, was found in what he did. He kept God's law. God's law didn't just come about with Moses on mount sinai, it's always existed, and will always exist.

You can't have faith, without works. You have to have both, they go hand in hand.

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

You can't have faith, if you don't have works. They go hand in hand. The works aren't what saves you, your faith is, but faith, without works, isn't faith at all. It's one thing to say that you believe a chair can support your weight, but it's another to actually sit down in the chair. By your works, your faith is perfected. The works we're to have, are the works of God. The works of God, are found in the instructions He gave us in the first five books of the bible.
 
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GenemZ

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I voted no,

the sin of the unbeliever is them not repenting and bowing the knee to Christ as their Lord and savior.


Where is that found in scripture?

Here is one place.

Jesus when speaking about the Holy Spirit, said..

"When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the
wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
about sin, because people do not believe in me."

Jn 16:8-9
 
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Grip Docility

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Genesis 26:4-5 -
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham was justified by faith, but the fruit of that faith, the proof of it, was found in what he did. He kept God's law. God's law didn't just come about with Moses on mount sinai, it's always existed, and will always exist.

You can't have faith, without works. You have to have both, they go hand in hand.

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

You can't have faith, if you don't have works. They go hand in hand. The works aren't what saves you, your faith is, but faith, without works, isn't faith at all. It's one thing to say that you believe a chair can support your weight, but it's another to actually sit down in the chair. By your works, your faith is perfected. The works we're to have, are the works of God. The works of God, are found in the instructions He gave us in the first five books of the bible.

Hoy boy. James again.

Where does this lead us?

James is talking about works of Love that result from faith in Christ, Alone.

Read the opening of James 1 then follow through to the Royal Law.

Faith without Love is Dead, but Love is the result of Christ through us, that is born of Faith, Alone, which is Salvic.

James and Paul are both saying 1 Corinthians 13:2
 
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Devin P

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Hoy boy. James again.

Where does this lead us?

James is talking about works of Love that result from faith in Christ, Alone.

Read the opening of James 1 then follow through to the Royal Law.

Faith without Love is Dead, but Love is the result of Christ through us, that is born of Faith, Alone, which is Salvic.
So you are saying that we should ignore God's law? How can you know what sin is, without the law? You're told to stop sinning, and walk in righteousness. How can you stop sinning, and begin walking in righteousness if you don't know what God calls righteous and what He calls unrighteous?

Romans 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Actually, it's mandatory that we know what the first five books of the bible (the Torah/law) say, because Paul himself says this in romans:

Romans 7:1 - 1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

He went on to describe the law of the adulterous bride, showing how God fulfilled it as His role as a Husband to us, His wife, with us being the adulterous bride. But, you'd completely miss that had you not read what God's law says about adultery in a marriage.

That, and many try saying Paul did away with the law, but Peter himself refutes this:

2 Peter 3:16-17 -
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
 
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Grip Docility

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So you are saying that we should ignore God's law? How can you know what sin is, without the law? You're told to stop sinning, and walk in righteousness. How can you stop sinning, and begin walking in righteousness if you don't know what God calls righteous and what He calls unrighteous?

Romans 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Actually, it's mandatory that we know what the first five books of the bible (the Torah/law) say, because Paul himself says this in romans:

Romans 7:1 - 1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

He went on to describe the law of the adulterous bride, showing how God fulfilled it as His role as a Husband to us, His wife, with us being the adulterous bride. But, you'd completely miss that had you not read what God's law says about adultery in a marriage.

That, and many try saying Paul did away with the law, but Peter himself refutes this:

2 Peter 3:16-17 -
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

Paul said cast the Slave Woman and her son out. Christ is superior.
 
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Devin P

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Paul said cast the Slave Woman and her son out. Christ is superior.
No, he was quoting God, because God said that about Ishmael and his mother. There are two children, the chosen (children of the free woman) and those that won't accept Him (bond woman).

But the thing we are free from, is sin. You can't be free from sin without knowing what it is and knowing how to avoid it though. Like working on the Sabbath, we wouldn't even know what the Sabbath was if God didn't bless us with the opportunity to read about it in His instructions regarding the Sabbath being for all men, for all eternity.
 
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Grip Docility

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No, he was quoting God, because God said that about Ishmael and his mother. There are two children, the chosen (children of the free woman) and those that won't accept Him (bond woman).

But the thing we are free from, is sin. You can't be free from sin without knowing what it is and knowing how to avoid it though. Like working on the Sabbath, we wouldn't even know what the Sabbath was if God didn't bless us with the opportunity to read about it in His instructions regarding the Sabbath being for all men, for all eternity.

Born on Sinai, M8.
 
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aiki

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It was absurd as you seem to think you cannot glorify God in the mundane things of life.

Sure you can. But there are obvious limits. Failing to recognize this, one can become irrationally legalistic about Paul's command.
 
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Hammster

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Sure you can. But there are obvious limits. Failing to recognize this, one can become irrationally legalistic about Paul's command.
I don’t find that trying to give God glory in all things to be legalistic. I think He’s worthy.
 
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mindlight

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If a pagan firefighter runs into a burning building and saves a child, are his actions sinful?

The action in itself is not sinful and the courage and training that allow the man to take the risk are probably the primary motivation patterns.

WE should praise self sacrificial impulses towards good things rather than picking them apart to find the bugs,mildew and fungus even in the noblest of human impulses. BUt ultimately it is God who saves us rather than a pagan firefighter from the fires of hell.
 
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Devin P

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Born on Sinai, M8.
Then how did Abraham keep it? How did Noah know about clean and unclean animals and first fruit sacrifices? How did Abel know how to offer the proper burnt offering? The law and Jesus are one, as He is torah made flesh. Therefore it couldn't have been born on Mount Sinai, because like Jesus, it's eternal.
 
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zoidar

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Everyone knows God exists, so it’s pretty bad to pretend that He doesn’t.

How is this to be understood?

John 15:22
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin."
 
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