During Tribulation, is it still Faith only for salvation?

Swan7

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During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?

God gave us free will and if one chooses not to follow Him and take the Mark of the Beast, then that one is condemned by one's own choice. Jesus Christ warns us about this so that we do not take it and because He loves us. If one believes in God and in all He has taught in His Word then we are saved, being saved and are sealed for the day of redemption. This means also believing in His miracles.
In the letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus Christ gives specific instruction to each one. Some of these were not following Him as they ought, but God did not forsake them and gave them correction to correct their behavior so that they be saved and not condemned. This is why we must always seek His counsel.
 
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timtams

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You're assuming that the Revelation is about some time in a future "tribulation"; that's a lot of assumption.

Scripture speaks a lot of tribulation, but never mentions some specific future period as "The Tribulation". Rather the Lord tells us that "in this world you will have tribulation". The closest we do get to a "The Tribulation" is in the Olivet Discourse, but this concerns the events that surround the destruction of Jerusalem. That specific sent of events is long passed.

But here and now we dwell in the tribulation of this world.

I don't read the Revelation as being about the future, I simply don't think the point of the text is to give us some kind of outline of some future period of time; but is instead intended to speak about events relevant to the time John wrote it. The Beast John mentions isn't a future Antichrist, but the Roman Emperor. The Revelation speaks of two kinds of marks, there is the "Mark of the Beast" but there is also the "Seal of God". The implication seems to be here that our allegiance cannot be divided; we cannot worship both Christ and Caesar. The mark, then, is allegiance to Caesar. Since the Revelation was written during the reign of Emperor Domitian, it is relevant to know that Domitian was one of the first to really push the Imperial Cult. Domitian erected temples dedicated to his father Vespasian and his brother Titus, and it was expected that citizens and residents of the Empire offer worship to Caesar. Christians refused to do this, and so were persecuted. That's why John was exiled to Patmos, that is why he wrote the Revelation to comfort the Christians in Asia Minor.
There are lots of assumptions here as well.

Such as that John was depicting a Roman emperor.
That it's about a contemporary tribulation.
That it doesn't speak of a specific tribulation, even though it delineates the period in which this would occur (42 months).

I will add:
There is no evidence that Christians couldn't buy or sell without involvement in a Caesar cult.
There is no evidence that Domitian pushed the imperial cult or had any direct influence on it. You speak of the temple of Vespasian, but this was in Rome, not Asia Minor.
There is no evidence of any widespread persecution in Domitian's reign.
It is debatable that Revelation was even written in his reign.

What your post represents is basically the opinions of a minority of scholars like Colin Hemer, that you have repackaged as your own and underlined with dogmatic certainty, while speaking of other posts as being full of "assumptions."
 
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JacksBratt

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I guess if you are able to include many requirements as part of "faith", then yes, its very easy to hold the view that salvation is by faith alone.
Yes, it is faith alone. Our faith, in Christ, leads us or allows us to accept Him as our savior, believe that He will forgive our sins and understand that acknowledgement of our being sinners and through Christs gift of salvation, we will have everlasting life.

The difference is, well, lets compare it to a movie..... You can "work" for a ticket by doing something, getting paid and buying a ticket... whatever money you use to buy the ticket.... was earned through work..

However, salvation is a free ticket.. you still have to request the ticket, but you did no "work" for it.


Work comes after the salvation. Things like servant-hood and giving of your time and resources... The change in your attitude, kindness, putting yourself last ... These are the things that are proof of your faith.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There are lots of assumptions here as well.

Such as that John was depicting a Roman emperor.
That it's about a contemporary tribulation.
That it doesn't speak of a specific tribulation, even though it delineates the period in which this would occur (42 months).

I will add:
There is no evidence that Christians couldn't buy or sell without involvement in a Caesar cult.
There is no evidence that Domitian pushed the imperial cult or had any direct influence on it. You speak of the temple of Vespasian, but this was in Rome, not Asia Minor.
There is no evidence of any widespread persecution in Domitian's reign.
It is debatable that Revelation was even written in his reign.

What your post represents is basically the opinions of a minority of scholars like Colin Hemer, that you have repackaged as your own and underlined with dogmatic certainty, while speaking of other posts as being full of "assumptions."

Did you notice that I prefaced my opinions by stating that they were what I believe, how I read the text, and not simply asserting these things as though they were unquestionably true?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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anna ~ grace

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During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?
It has never been faith only salvation.

Just so you know.
 
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Devin P

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During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?
There's a mark of God, that is in your right hand and your forehead:

Exodus 13:9 - And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 11:18 - Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

And a mark of the enemy, of satan, that is in your right hand, and forehead:
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The mark that leads to salvation, is whether or not you think on, and practice God's holy, just and righteous law.

The mark that leads to punishment, is thinking on, and practicing sin, as opposed to God's law.
 
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Guojing

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Yes, it is faith alone. Our faith, in Christ, leads us or allows us to accept Him as our savior, believe that He will forgive our sins and understand that acknowledgement of our being sinners and through Christs gift of salvation, we will have everlasting life.

The difference is, well, lets compare it to a movie..... You can "work" for a ticket by doing something, getting paid and buying a ticket... whatever money you use to buy the ticket.... was earned through work..

However, salvation is a free ticket.. you still have to request the ticket, but you did no "work" for it.


Work comes after the salvation. Things like servant-hood and giving of your time and resources... The change in your attitude, kindness, putting yourself last ... These are the things that are proof of your faith.

But if you agree that taking the mark of the beast, because you are hungry and you want to be able to buy food so as not to starve, will mean you are automatically condemned to damnation by God correct?

So salvation during the Tribulation, isn't it not faith AND works, like what Revelations 14:9-12 would suggest? Salvation cannot be a free gift if you can lose it thru any actions you do after you believe in Jesus.
 
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Guojing

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It has never been faith only salvation.

Just so you know.

Paul has several verses that made it clear, at least to me, that salvation is thru faith alone.

I am sure you know where they are, but of course, it is still possible you will choose to interpret them differently.
 
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Guojing

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Where do you get such a teaching from? I have never seen it in the Bible I read.

You have yet to encounter any Christian who believe that the church is delivered from the wrath to come? Paul explain that in a few of his letters, esp 1 Thess.
 
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Guojing

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God gave us free will and if one chooses not to follow Him and take the Mark of the Beast, then that one is condemned by one's own choice. Jesus Christ warns us about this so that we do not take it and because He loves us. If one believes in God and in all He has taught in His Word then we are saved, being saved and are sealed for the day of redemption. This means also believing in His miracles.
In the letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus Christ gives specific instruction to each one. Some of these were not following Him as they ought, but God did not forsake them and gave them correction to correct their behavior so that they be saved and not condemned. This is why we must always seek His counsel.

Would you then conclude that, during the Tribulation, salvation is once again thru faith AND works?
 
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JacksBratt

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But if you agree that taking the mark of the beast, because you are hungry and you want to be able to buy food so as not to starve, will mean you are automatically condemned to damnation by God correct?

I don't know what people will do if they don't take the mark... By the vary design, not taking the mark is death.. either a quick beheading or slow starvation, fugitive, stress around every corner..If it was me.. I'd walk up to the authorities and state "I refuse to bow to the beast. I refuse to take it's mark. I am a believer in the one true God and the Holy trinity." And end it quick. Unless God somehow had me doing His work and was providing protection.

So salvation during the Tribulation, isn't it not faith AND works, like what Revelations 14:9-12 would suggest? Salvation cannot be a free gift if you can lose it thru any actions you do after you believe in Jesus.

First, I don't know. It's just my guess. If your in the prophesied tribulation.. then you don't need much "Faith" to believe in God. Also, there is going to be a great deception that will come over those who did not accept Christ before this time period.. so believers will be rare.

Either way.. there is nothing humanly possible that can "earn" our salvation.. Only death will pay for the sins of any human. That death was Christ's. So salvation always comes through Christ's death and resurrection.. but how that works in the tribulation is beyond me.
 
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Guojing

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I don't know what people will do if they don't take the mark... By the vary design, not taking the mark is death.. either a quick beheading or slow starvation, fugitive, stress around every corner..If it was me.. I'd walk up to the authorities and state "I refuse to bow to the beast. I refuse to take it's mark. I am a believer in the one true God and the Holy trinity." And end it quick. Unless God somehow had me doing His work and was providing protection.



First, I don't know. It's just my guess. If your in the prophesied tribulation.. then you don't need much "Faith" to believe in God. Also, there is going to be a great deception that will come over those who did not accept Christ before this time period.. so believers will be rare.

Either way.. there is nothing humanly possible that can "earn" our salvation.. Only death will pay for the sins of any human. That death was Christ's. So salvation always comes through Christ's death and resurrection.. but how that works in the tribulation is beyond me.

But during this current period NOW, you do know how you are saved correct?
 
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Swan7

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Would you then conclude that, during the Tribulation, salvation is once again thru faith AND works?
Not the works you are probably thinking of. The word "believe" holds more meaning than what's on the surface. This requires seeking God for His understanding. :yellowheart:
 
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Guojing

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Not the works you are probably thinking of. The word "believe" holds more meaning than what's on the surface. This requires seeking God for His understanding. :yellowheart:

To me, rejecting the mark of the beast is a deliberate action you must do, over and above believing in your heart. Its like going for water baptism or attending church during this time period.

Doing so also runs the risk of being beheaded, or starving to death due to not being able to buy food.
 
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Swan7

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To me, rejecting the mark of the beast is a deliberate action you must do, over and above believing in your heart. Its like going for water baptism or attending church during this time period.

Doing so also runs the risk of being beheaded, or starving to death due to not being able to buy food.

Yes, I agree since Jesus Christ had warned us well in advance, but trusting in Him is what matters as He is the One that saves.
A lot of believers died for believing and trusting God in the OT as well as the NT. However, there are 3 destinations explained throughout the Bible:
1. Those who take up the sword will die by the sword
2. Captivity
3. Those who keep the faith, survive and endure until the end.

There are also miracles that still happen today where God is taking care of His people just like history shows us about Israel in captivity (Egypt) and in Exodus.
 
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Guojing

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Yes, I agree since Jesus Christ had warned us well in advance, but trusting in Him is what matters as He is the One that saves.
A lot of believers died for believing and trusting God in the OT as well as the NT. However, there are 3 destinations explained throughout the Bible:
1. Those who take up the sword will die by the sword
2. Captivity
3. Those who keep the faith, survive and endure until the end.

There are also miracles that still happen today where God is taking care of His people just like history shows us about Israel in captivity (Egypt) and in Exodus.

Well if I understood Matthew 24 and other scripture talking about the tribulation, the Jews, together with any remaining Gentiles, are to flee to the mountains during that time.

Even though they will not be able to buy or sell anything without the mark, God would feed a remnant of those people, using means similar to how Elijah was fed, thru food delivered by birds.
 
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Swan7

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Well if I understood Matthew 24 and other scripture talking about the tribulation, the Jews, together with any remaining Gentiles, are to flee to the mountains during that time.

Even though they will not be able to buy or sell anything without the mark, God would feed a remnant of those people, using means similar to how Elijah was fed, thru food delivered by birds.

Yes, I was more going over the Bible as a whole. I see you have understanding. :yellowheart:
 
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