“We have met the enemy and he is us.” Walt Kelly via Pogo

zephcom

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Hah! If my superiority bothers you maybe it's because you are trying to be as good as me. And when that happens you already admit you are not. The difference is I have a promise, and hope and a chance. The very best you've got coming is six feet of dirt in your face. Sorry, but I'll take my choices and you can have yours.
Actually, that isn't the reason. I don't find you as being better than me. I don't find you as being worse than me. You simply aren't better than me. That is all.

Your 'promise and hope and a chance' is just a figment of your mind as promoted by your religion. The reality is that no one has a clue what happens after dying because everything we know about dying comes from people who haven't yet died.

That you use information from people who had not died about what happens after death is a sure sign that it is you who is grasping at straws in a vain attempt to survive death. That is the snake oil of religion. It hands you the belief in life after death while KNOWING that you won't be back to denounce the religion as false once you have died.

Lot's of people fall for that. -I- fell for that once too. I got over it.
 
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section9+1

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I'm reluctant to say I'm better than you. I will say I'm better off than you. God says my spirit will not strive with man forever. I think a person can get to be satisfied with his place and that is God's gift to him. God stops being real and ends his involvement. In the end you get what you chase after. If you do not see God at work in his creation, specifically Christianity, then for you he most certainly is not there and never will be. I find that unfortunate, but I know it's all for the best.
 
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Hieronymus

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The boomers were the first generation to be brainwashed by media and entertainment industry.
According to this article:

The Boomers Ruined Everything

virtually all the problems in America are a direct result of the Boomer Generation...my generation. At this point the author doesn't include the destruction of life as we know it on the planet, but I'm confident that will follow in subsequent versions of the story.

I wonder what it is that allows an entire generation of people to stop the collective advancement of their children and grandchildren. If one were to be honest, the Boomer generation is the first generation of Americans who will leave their nation and the planet in worse condition than it was when they were born.
 
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Pommer

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zephcom

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I'm reluctant to say I'm better than you. I will say I'm better off than you. God says my spirit will not strive with man forever. I think a person can get to be satisfied with his place and that is God's gift to him. God stops being real and ends his involvement. In the end you get what you chase after. If you do not see God at work in his creation, specifically Christianity, then for you he most certainly is not there and never will be. I find that unfortunate, but I know it's all for the best.

You are aware that the Bible says universal salvation is real, right? God's gift does not have to be 'chased after'.

References:

1 Corinthians 15
Romans 5
 
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section9+1

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You are aware that the Bible says universal salvation is real, right? God's gift does not have to be 'chased after'.

References:

1 Corinthians 15
Romans 5
I see nothing here about universal salvation. There's a universal opportunity, but it very often does not get realized or wanted. I thought the content of the bible was off limits.
 
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zephcom

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I see nothing here about universal salvation. There's a universal opportunity, but it very often does not get realized or wanted. I thought the content of the bible was off limits.
Being returned to the state Adam was in before the 'Fall' certainly is universal. And Adam was not condemned before the Fall. If Adam was not condemned before the Fall, then none of us are either according to those passages.

I didn't say the Bible was off limits. I only said it represented the thoughts of humans about God and not God's thoughts. In the case of the two passages I cited, it is the thoughts of Paul...the guy who's teachings most of modern Christianity is based on. And, given the chronology of the New Testament, Paul's authentic writings (which both passages are considered by nearly every single Bible scholar) they pre-date all of the rest of the New Testament books.

That means those passages represent the earliest understanding of what Jesus accomplished with His death and resurrection. And the understandings of an event that are closest in time to the event are generally accepted as more accurate than those found later in time.
 
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zephcom

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Was there even a Jesus as a member of a triune God or is this all fiction?
There most likely was a Jesus. Religions don't just spring up out of thin air for no reason at all. Even though secular history doesn't record a Jesus at that time, there most likely was.

The triune God was created out of thin air sometime in the late Second Century or early Third Century. It was then adopted as a statement of faith when the Holy Roman Catholic Church was formed in the Fourth Century.
 
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zephcom

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Was there even a Jesus as a member of a triune God or is this all fiction? I don't see how anyone is going to be returned to the state before the fall. The effects of the fall are permanent.

According to the Bible, the effects of the Fall are NOT permanent. That is what those two passages say.
 
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SimplyMe

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Boomers are dying off; Trump is a old man. It won't be long before an entirely new generation will be at the wheel. Then the restraints on the new Sodom will be removed and the world can continue on unabated.

You know, I somewhat agree with this... though I suspect not in the way you meant it. Instead, “‘The sin of your sister Sodom was this: She lived with her daughters in the lap of luxury—proud, gluttonous, and lazy. They ignored the oppressed and the poor. They put on airs and lived obscene live Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16:49)

I'm amazed on a Christian Forum, particularly from people who "live in the lap of luxury" yet have no empathy or compassion for the poor and oppressed among us. Instead, I see a lot of people blaming the poor and that greed (and riches) is the right of people that work hard (and should be celebrated).
 
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section9+1

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You know, I somewhat agree with this... though I suspect not in the way you meant it. Instead, “‘The sin of your sister Sodom was this: She lived with her daughters in the lap of luxury—proud, gluttonous, and lazy. They ignored the oppressed and the poor. They put on airs and lived obscene live Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16:49)

I'm amazed on a Christian Forum, particularly from people who "live in the lap of luxury" yet have no empathy or compassion for the poor and oppressed among us. Instead, I see a lot of people blaming the poor and that greed (and riches) is the right of people that work hard (and should be celebrated).
Now move on to 16:50
 
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Speedwell

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Now move on to 16:50
Ah, yes. The Abomination of Sodom--something that straight men and women sometimes do together and that not all gay men engage in. What would your point be here?
 
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SimplyMe

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Now move on to 16:50

The first part, the haughty, fits nicely into the previous verse -- and definitely seems to fit many in the US, including a huge number of Christians. As to the second part, abominations, are you referring to Red Lobster?

Too many Christians seem to get hung up on the idea that "abominations" must be sexual -- when in fact, there were a huge number of other things the Lord called abominations. Also, I suspect there is a reason far more is made of the lack of charity in the first verse, with "abomination" almost an afterthought -- there is a reason "Love thy Neighbor as thyself" was named by Christ as the Second Commandment, after loving the Lord.
 
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section9+1

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The first part, the haughty, fits nicely into the previous verse -- and definitely seems to fit many in the US, including a huge number of Christians. As to the second part, abominations, are you referring to Red Lobster?

Too many Christians seem to get hung up on the idea that "abominations" must be sexual -- when in fact, there were a huge number of other things the Lord called abominations. Also, I suspect there is a reason far more is made of the lack of charity in the first verse, with "abomination" almost an afterthought -- there is a reason "Love thy Neighbor as thyself" was named by Christ as the Second Commandment, after loving the Lord.
I think I'll pass on your version. Sodom is well known for its abominations.
 
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section9+1

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According to the Bible, the effects of the Fall are NOT permanent. That is what those two passages say.
I Cor. 15 is arguing for a resurrection. He is talking to Christians and about Christians. He says brothers. He says we. If the fall is undone, then no one will know the difference between good and evil and we can all run around naked again.
Romans 5 is just about the universal offer of forgiveness and righteousness. Christ has defeated sin and death. There is a universal opportunity, but not a universal application. Paul writes to Christians, not the world.
Besides isn't Adam supposed to be just another myth.
 
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zephcom

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I Cor. 15 is arguing for a resurrection. He is talking to Christians and about Christians. He says brothers. He says we. If the fall is undone, then no one will know the difference between good and evil and we can all run around naked again.
Romans 5 is just about the universal offer of forgiveness and righteousness. Christ has defeated sin and death. There is a universal opportunity, but not a universal application. Paul writes to Christians, not the world.
Besides isn't Adam supposed to be just another myth.

I include context with my Bible citations and there is a lot of context in 1 Corinthians 15. But the operative verse for this discussion is verse 22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." I think it is impossible to weasel out of the meaning of that.

In Romans 5, Paul goes into more detail about the connection between Adam and Jesus. The bottom line in Paul's discussion is in verse 18: "18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

In the real world Adam and the Garden of Eden -is- a myth. But the entire creation story can also be viewed as a spiritual teaching. IOWs it is not a description of actual, real world happening. Rather it is a spiritual depiction of why we are here and what we are to learn.

Within the concept of Adam being a spiritual story of humanity, the connection of Jesus with Adam and Jesus' ability to reverse the damage to our spiritual existence caused by Adam, Paul's teachings in these two books makes perfect sense.
 
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