Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Douggg said:

It is during the second half of the 7 years, that the Jews, israel, will have become Christians.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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DavidPT said:

Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.


Who does one think thy people are meaning here? And what land is being inherited forever? And finally, when does one feel these things initially get fulfilled?

If we back up in the chapter, we do see this.

Isaiah 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

I would think thy people meant in verse 21 are the same ones God said this about in verse 10---for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

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BABerean2 said:

Your problem is that the text from Revelation 12 comes after "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18, which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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claninja said:

There are very good question DavidPT. I believe addressing them in a different orders helps.



'When' helps us the most. I would say the 'when' occurs with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

We see the restored nation of Israel corresponds to the New Jerusalem.

The nations will come to the light of Israel/New Jerusalem, and the gates of Israel/New Jerusalem will never be shut

Isaiah 60:3, 11 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession.

Revelation 20:24-25 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.

God is the light of Israel/New Jerusalem.

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more your light by day,nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light; but the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.c

Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.



There's no doubt it's prophesying about a future Israel.

Now who this future Israel is, is a whole different argument.

Is the future Israel being prophesied of only the biological descendants of Abraham? If so, that would make most people on the planet today, Israel, as Abraham's DNA is ubiquitous.

Is the future Israel being prophesied of the body of Christ? I would argue this one fits the bill more. Paul is very clear that those who belong to Christ, regardless of race, are Abraham's seed AND HEIRS.

Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

As shown above, using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the future restored Israel, as prophesied in Isaiah matches, the New Jerusalem. Upon further examination, we can confirm, using scripture to interpret scripture, that the New Jerusalem is the body of Christ. This is in agreement with Paul's words in galatians 3:29

1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb
Revelation 20:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.
Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God

Ephesians 2:21 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Based on Scripture evidenced above, I would argue the identity of the future restored Israel is the body of Christ, which consists of Jew and grafted in gentile.



From a futurist interpretation, it wouldn't be the same present physical land that was promised to Abraham. It would be land in the new heavens and new earth, which has no sea. This would be inherited by those who are not thrown in the lake of fire.

From a preterist perspective, it would be the same present land that Abraham saw. Jesus currently owns the land of Israel from heaven, thus believers are co heirs with Christ IN heaven.



I would agree. It was Israel who disobeyed the old covenant, which resulted in the curses of the law being poured out. It was then through Israel that Christ came and redeemed, not only them, but the world.

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keras said:

Yes, it was ancient Israel that God 'smote; by allowing the Assyrians to conquer and to exile them out of the Land. They are now scattered around the world, but are identifiable by the fact it is them who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus, the people He came to save, Matthew 15:24
The people of Judah, the current Jewish people, have had a different history and will have a different final outcome. Matthew 8:11

You ask: And what land is being inherited forever? And finally, when does one feel these things initially get fulfilled? Quote.
The Land given to the Patriarchs, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates.

When? I believe within the next few years. I base that on the 2000 year period of the Church age, the exact time between Jesus' 2 Advents.
Also on the current world situation; sinfulness abounding and how Iran will do what they have threatened to; attack Israel. That will be their doom and the changer of all the world.

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Douggg said:

Which will be all them of the dead in Christ, their bodies redeemed in the resurrection/rapture will have their lives judged in heaven for what they did for the cause of Christ - while the great tribulation takes place on earth.

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BABerean2 said:

The judgment of the dead occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than
Solomon is here.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

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Douggg said:

At the great white throne judgement after the 1000 years are finished, Revelation 20:11-15.

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claninja said:

I agree.



The law is a shadow of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

It points out what is sin.

Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

The law itself is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

The law could not, nor was ever meant to, correct our sinful nature. But that doesn't mean that God does not require perfect obedience to the law. God is holy, so therefore we must be holy.

Thus God, doing what the law could not do, sent his son to condemn sin in the flesh, thus ALL the righteous requirements of the law are now fulfilled in those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The old covenant was a contract between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel would obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would bless Israel (Deuteronomy 28: 1-14). If Israel would not obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would curse the nation of Israel (Deuteronomy 28:15-68), which included being uprooted from the land. But as we see throughout the OT, no one could keep ALL of the righteous requirements of the Law.

So God made this contract null and void by superseding it with the New Covenant. For those of us who put our faith in Christ and are born again, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled, despite are fleshly shortcomings ( I do not mean that it is now ok to sin), SO THAT we might obtain the resurrection from the dead.

The promises and the curses of the law were a part of the conditional contract (old covenant) that required full obedience. However, since this contract has been removed, the promises and curses have been removed as well. They have been replaced with better promises under the New covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-7 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.



I absolutely agree.



The promise of restoration to the land for the nation of Israel is a promise found in the old covenant. Is that old covenant still in effect?

As the Law was but a shadow, I would argue the promise of restoration following the Babylonian exile was a shadow (ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah), while the reconciliation of the world to God through Christ is the reality.




So you believe the old covenant is still contractually in effect between God and the nation of Israel?




So you believe David is the shepherd and not Jesus? I disagree. I believe Jesus is the "one shepherd". I believe David points to Jesus.

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd

John 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

If scripture could be read straight forward and understood from a literal interpretation, Jesus would not have had to open the minds of the disciples to understand the scriptures.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures



Official recognition as an independent country doesn't fulfill prophecy. When the nation of Israel returned from the Babylonian exile, as promised, they weren't recognized as an official independent country by the Persian empire.



God knows the difference between near and distant and He knows how to explain it to us.

The angel told Daniel to seal up the vision for it concerned for what would occur many days from now. There are typically 2 interpretations to Daniel 8: 1.) Antiochus Ephiphanes or 2.) the end times antichrist. If Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, then "many days from now" means a couple hundred years. If it is about the end times antichrist, then "many days from now" means + 2,500 years.

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns many days from now.”

John is told not to seal up the prophecy, as the time is near. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, that means "the time is near" in revelation should be less than a couple hundred years. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is the end times antichrist, then "the time is near" meaning +2,000 years contradicts the "many days from now" being +2,500 years because there's not really a difference between +2,500 years and +2,000 years in order to say one is near and the other is for the distant future.

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

Peter states that a day is like 1000 years AND 1000 years like a day. Peter does NOT ONLY say 1000 years is a day.

2 peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.


God could easily tell us Jesus' coming in judgment upon the nation of Israel would be many days or in a distant future. But he doesn't. He says soon and "this generation will not pass away".



John himself rejects your statement

John 21:23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”



I disagree, the disciples did live through wars and rumors of wars, persecution, false prophets, earthquakes, famines, and the gospel spreading across the known world. There is ample evidence in scripture and history to confirm these events happened in the 1st century.

James states the coming of the Lord is NEAR. he also states the judge IS STANDING ( present tense verb) at the door.
James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

The only way James could make that statement is if he was experiencing the signs of the olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door

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BABerean2 said:

And how did the above happen?

How many times does Jacob Rothschild give the credit to God in the interview below?

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Contenders Edge said:

The process explained about what led up to the restoration of Israel as a nation is informative but the Rothschild interview does not speak for all Jews in regards to whom they give credit for their being restored as a nation. There are in fact an adequate number of Jews who do give credit to God for the restoration of Israel, even from that generation and despite Israel’s present secular nature, the religious community of the nation still wields a lot of influence over Israel and its culture despite being a minority.

That minority, however, is destined to grow into a majority. The prophet Ezekiel foretold of the restoration of Israel as a nation thousands of years before it came to pass. (Ezek. 37:22) And who cares about what means God used to fulfill that prophecy? What matters is that it came to pass.

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BABerean2 said:

One verse taken out of its context does not prove your point.

That passage is about the future resurrection, and judgment of the dead, described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

It is also about the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The land that they inherit is found in Hebrews 11:15-16.

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (See John 5:27-30)
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. (See Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (See Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (See Matthew 1:1)
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
(See Matthew 1:1)
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
(See Hebrews 13:20 for the "everlasting" covenant.)
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Testament?)
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (How long is "forever"?)

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Contenders Edge said:

When Christ comes to the earth to reign, it is made clear that throughout various passages of scripture that He will be reigning from a temple where He carries out His role as both King over all the earth and as High Priest, but when the new heavens and new earth are created and the New Jerusalem descends from out of Heaven, there will be no temple because Christ and the Father will be that temple. (Rev. 21:22)

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Douggg said:

At the great white throne judgement after the 1000 years are finished, Revelation 20:11-15.

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BABerean2 said:

Your confusion seems to come from the belief that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.

However, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know this cannot be correct.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

The Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Peter also says the fire comes on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

When does the judgment of the dead come in Revelation chapter 20?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet after Matthew 25:31-46?

Are you saying a whole nation of people will be converted to Christ, based on bloodline, or geographic boundaries?
Are you attempting to promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?

Have you changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26?

“Your confusion seems to come from the belief that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.


However, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know this cannot be correct.”




The Book of Revelation does have a chronological order to it. After John finishes writing about the vials of God’s wrath entail, the last being just before Christ is set to return, in chapters 17 and 18, he then shifts his focus to the destruction of Babylon (both the metaphorical and literal Babylons) and then afterwards, the focus shifts back to the return of Christ and what will happen when He returns.


Shifts in focus to happen from time to time throughout the book of Revelation, but that does not take away from the fact that there is a chronological order to it; it presents itself accordingly.






“We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.”






That final judgment does not happen until the Great Whit Throne judgment which will take place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.






“The Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.”






When it comes to any given topic addressed in scripture there will be passages that will have more to say about that topic than others which is why it is only when we study the entirety of scripture on any given matter that we are given the clarity we need and this particular case is no different. Paul is simply giving a detail pertaining to the return of Christ that John does not and vice versa.






“Peter also says the fire comes on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.”






And yet there is a 1,000 year intermission between the return of Christ and the day that this present earth is destroyed by the fire of which Peter speaks.






“When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?
When does the judgment of the dead come in Revelation chapter 20?”





The fire that incinerates this present universe and the final judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 20:7-15. It is just that Peter tells us more about the destruction of this present earth by fire than John does.






“How many mortals are left alive on the planet after Matthew 25:31-46?”






The mortals left over are those people and nations that Christ welcomes into His Kingdom on earth.






“Are you saying a whole nation of people will be converted to Christ, based on bloodline, or geographic boundaries?”





It is about the fulfillment of promise. A specific set of promises were made to Israel which will be made manifest and completed in them who receive Jesus when He returns. And the promises to Israel do include land with geographical boundaries which are destined to expand.


If the promises made to them are not fulfilled, then we ourselves cannot have confidence in the promises made to us.



“Are you attempting to promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?”​

There is the children of God which are they who are in Christ and then there are the children of the promise who are not the children of God (Rom. 9:8) but because they are of the lineage of Abraham to whom the promises were first made, the promise of preservation is naturally extended yet the fulfillment of those promises (earthly and spiritual) will be made complete in the Jews who welcome Jesus as their Messiah when He returns.


“Have you changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26?”



Red herrings and semantics will not get you anywhere.

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Contenders Edge said:

The Book of Revelation does have a chronological order to it.

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