Are we Saved from the Law or are we expected to keep it?

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i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

Well, it depends on what you mean by commandments. If you are referring to the Old Testament Commands as a whole, then... "no." We do not need to keep the Old Law (as a whole or package deal).

For Scripture suggests that the Old Law is no more; See: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, 2 Corinthians 3:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:16-17, Colossians 2:20-23, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:9-10, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 9:16-17, Hebrews 10:8-9, Matthew 26:27-28, Matthew 27:50-51, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

However, if you are referring to the New Testament Commands (or New Covenant Laws) that come from Jesus and His followers, then... "yes." We do need to keep them as a whole or package deal (as a part of the New Covenant). For Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said to the rich young ruler if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (This was the moral law like: Do not murder, do not lie, do not covet, etc.) (See: Matthew 19:17-19).

Some Christians have suggested that Jesus was teaching Old Covenant, and not New Covenant, but this is not true. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
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timothyu

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Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law
He simply condensed them to a version the people could easily understand and relate to and removed the need of the priests with their mumbo jumbo to have a hold over the masses.
 
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2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

Most Belief Alone Proponents will say that those who are saved, will automatically do good works and live holy as a part of the condition of being saved. But this is actually against what the Bible teaches. First, holiness and works is not a condition of the saved because the Bible teaches ...

We need to endure to the end as a part of salvation:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

Second, holiness and works is not a condition of the saved because Scripture is abundantly clear that believers can potentially fall away from the faith; Here several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)
You said:
i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. For...

#1. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#2. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).
 
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He simply condensed them to a version the people could easily understand and relate to and removed the need of the priests with their mumbo jumbo to have a hold over the masses.

God does not make mistakes. The Old Law was good and perfect for the intended covenant that it was for. But the New Law brought to fruition a more satisfying way in the fact that it focused more on shining forth the love of God, and His goodness.
 
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timothyu

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New Law brought to fruition a more satisfying way in the fact that it focused more on shining forth the love of God, and His goodness.
Well that was the purpose of Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom, the true gospel.
 
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Well that was the purpose of Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom, the true gospel.

I see the gospel of the Kingdom as an early form of the gospel that was later revealed in more detail. The gospel is believing in Christ's death and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel leads to holy living (Ephesians 5:25-27) (Titus 2:11-12). The gospel and works are tied together in the fact that the gospel will inevitably lead to righteous living or the Sanctification Process. Sanctification by the Spirit is a part of God choosing us to salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
 
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Not me

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I got my "newness of life" when I was raised with Christ...at my water baptism into Him and His death. (Rom 6:3-6)
Folks shouldn't wait around for something that is readily available.

I glad you are walking in your newness of life. May we all walk so, that we are pleasing to God in all things.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me
 
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tdidymas

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i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

These two assertions are both wrong in some sense. We are commanded by Christ to love one another, and that love "is the fulfillment of the law." 1 John 5 says "This is love for God, to obey His commands," so obeying God's commands is the proof or manifestation of our love for Him.

It is true that we are free from OT law, which does not mean we can do any evil thing and still be saved. If we are born again from God, we have a new spiritual nature that we must follow in order to have any peace in our relationship with God. Paul wrote (Rom. 4) that Jesus died for us which "condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

This means that we live by the faith that Jesus reconciled us to God, giving us the Spirit to guide our life. Therefore, we no longer keep the moral code to be saved. Instead, we follow the Spirit's leading because we are already saved by Christ. The apostle Paul wrote it this way: "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

It means that we no longer keep the law in order to become righteous. Rather, we keep the moral code because Christ has made us righteous. It is shown by a conversion of why we do what we do - a mindset. If we believe that God does the work of righteousness and love through our lives, then the 10 commandments are a no-brainer. Love fulfills the law.
TD:)
 
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Hammster

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Jesus said to the rich young ruler if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (This was the moral law like: Do not murder, do not lie, do not covet, etc.) (See: Matthew 19:17-19).
Jesus never gave him the gospel. He only gave him law since it was obvious that was what the man was after.
 
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timothyu

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I see the gospel of the Kingdom as an early form of the gospel that was later revealed in more detail.
Yes man has a habit of adding to things don't we. Common sense is often overwritten by mystification. Jesus said to follow the governance of God, not man, but man wants it both ways.
 
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timothyu

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I glad you are walking in your newness of life. May we all walk so, that we are pleasing to God in all things.
A simple step through the looking glass which reverses the ideals of man to match those of the Kingdom.
 
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Yes man has a habit of adding to things don't we. Common sense is often overwritten by mystification. Jesus said to follow the governance of God, not man, but man wants it both ways.

I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you agreeing with me, or are you disagreeing with me?
 
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Not me

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A simple step through the looking glass which reverses the ideals of man to match those of the Kingdom.

It is the depths of our personal relationship with Christ that we will be rewarded on.

Blessings as we pursue our relationship with Him.

Much love in Christ, Not me
 
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Does it matter?

Yes, it does. Preaching the truth of God's Word always matters.
For when we preach God's Word, it does not return void, my friend.
We may not always be able to see the results in this life all the time, but we will not definitely be able to witness our works for God when the Lord reveals all things.

Anyways, peace, and blessings to you in the Lord this fine day.
 
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timothyu

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but we will not definitely be able to witness our works for God when the Lord reveals all things.
I mirrored God's works in comparison to man's. The two are rarely compatible, for man prefers to serve self and use God to self justify.
 
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I mirrored God's works in comparison to man's. The two are rarely compatible, for man prefers to serve self and use God to self justify.

Again, not sure where you are talking about here.
Please check out 2 Corinthians 3:12 some time, brother.

May God bless you this fine day.
 
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