(Orthodox) Who are our brothers in Christ?

I keep things simple. My "brothers and sisters in Christ" are those who would be accepted in the Church by Chrismation alone.

Christians are those who would, without reservation, accept all statements of the Creed with or without filioque but without any other qualifications or conditionals. That would include, then, a baptism and at least in principle the acceptance that there "should" be a One Church and that Apostolic succession is at least "a thing" even if their church might not have it.

Everything else is a Christian-inspired religion. That doesn't mean that the individuals cannot be, in good faith, believers or loved by Christ and I cannot, would not make any statements of their ability to be saved outside the Church. I think the Church is a gift, something to be grateful for rather than proud of. In fact, I recall being told as a little kid to always try replace to pride with gratefulness in all things (harder than it sounds). And (I hope it doesn't sound too heretical), a hieromonk at the monastery I spent some time in childhood told me something to the effect "Orthodoxy is Salvation on easy mode". Think about it before you knee jerk "but Orthodoxy is hard!" because we might just be judged harsher for that easy mode. This stayed with me forever. It's best to be grateful and a little humble that you got to be Orthodox rather than proud and condescending of others.

Andrei D said:

because we might just be judged harsher for that easy mode. This stayed with me forever. It's best to be grateful and a little humble that you got to be Orthodox rather than proud and condescending of others.

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This is kind of something I've been thinking about for a while. It became quickly obvious to me when I first became Orthodox that it was something to be grateful for, and certainly I had no cause to be proud.

But lately I've been thinking of how we are told that those who are given much have more required of them. I still wouldn't call Orthodoxy "easy" with my background, but it certainly provides MUCH more in the way of tools and support for following Christ. So being that we have such a treasury of riches ... are we not that much more responsible for what we do with them compared to someone who is seeking God and simply doing the best they can with a more limited understanding or within the boundaries of confusing and competing doctrines?

I'll weigh in on the issue of who is a Christian. Self-identification isn't enough. They could believe in a monster and call him "Jesus", or nice man who isn't really God who told us to be nice to each other.

The Symbol of Faith. The Nicene Creed. Do they accept that? Yes or no? If they are, they are Christian, and you don't need to worry abut how you feel about it.

Others have already pointed out that they need the fullness of the Church.

rusmeister said:

I'll weigh in on the issue of who is a Christian. Self-identification isn't enough. They could believe in a monster and call him "Jesus", or nice man who isn't really God who told us to be nice to each other.

The Symbol of Faith. The Nicene Creed. Do they accept that? Yes or no? If they are, they are Christian, and you don't need to worry abut how you feel about it.

Others have already pointed out that they need the fullness of the Church.

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Why is the Nicene Creed the definition of a Christian?
There are a lot of people who deny what the Nicene Creed says or change the original meaning like baptism for remission of sins, One Holy Catholic Church and the filioque.

David Cabrera said:

Why is the Nicene Creed the definition of a Christian?
There are a lot of people who deny what the Nicene Creed says or change the original meaning like baptism for remission of sins, One Holy Catholic Church and the filioque.

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The Creed is what we believe to define God according to His revelation.

I would think a deep problem like the filioque damages, but not destroys, the definition of our faith. We must also avoid being Pharisees to other Christians.

Lastly, we are not in communion with the non Orthodox Christians but we must discern so we do not outright reject Orthodoxy in examples like the Apostles Creed.

Lukaris said:

The Creed is what we believe to define God according to His revelation.

I would think a deep problem like the filioque damages, but not destroys, the definition of our faith. We must also avoid being Pharisees to other Christians.

Lastly, we are not in communion with the non Orthodox Christians but we must discern so we do not outright reject Orthodoxy in examples like the Apostles Creed.

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I always hear that the filioque is a distinction in the Trinity. I believe that is something serious.
I am not trying to be a Pharisee to other Christians but if we don't call non-Trinitarians "Christians", then how others see God is important.

David Cabrera said:

I always hear that the filioque is a distinction in the Trinity. I believe that is something serious.
I am not trying to be a Pharisee to other Christians but if we don't call non-Trinitarians "Christians", then how others see God is important.

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The way I understand is that non Trinitarians ( like Jehova Witness etc.) are not Christians.

Roman Catholics, most Protestants, are certainly Trinitarian Christians but the filioque, among other things, clearly prevents communion.

Personally I feel any formal ecumenism in today’s climate would be a false Gospel perpetrated from elements internal & external to our church. Unless a Catholic or Protestant want to be Orthodox, I feel the Holy Spirit will work among them (like traditional Methodists, Lutherans etc.)where He knows better than we do.

A really interesting question I wrestle with. I was in a Baptist church for a while. The Faith Alone thing is pounded so hard it's silly. And it's like when they ask - Do you know for certain you are going to Heaven? - if you don't say YES! there is something wrong with you, you are not saved yet.

So it's like you decide when you are saved.

In the same group it's totally acceptable to use whatever birth control you want.

And baptism isn't necessary - it's just an extra you do to show everyone your faith.

These points are so out of line with the Bible, and historical Christianity, and almost put man above God. I don't know what to do with them.

Markie Boy said:

A really interesting question I wrestle with. I was in a Baptist church for a while. The Faith Alone thing is pounded so hard it's silly. And it's like when they ask - Do you know for certain you are going to Heaven? - if you don't say YES! there is something wrong with you, you are not saved yet.

So it's like you decide when you are saved.

In the same group it's totally acceptable to use whatever birth control you want.

And baptism isn't necessary - it's just an extra you do to show everyone your faith.

These points are so out of line with the Bible, and historical Christianity, and almost put man above God. I don't know what to do with them.

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The ironic thing is that "faith" is elevated to the position of a salvific "work" in some cases, and when it is, they don't realize it.

It was really driven home to me when I read a short story in a college lit class. I think it was called "The Bridegroom". I want to find it for reference because it so well illustrates a belief that became prevalent - namely that it was the strength of a person's conviction without wavering or doubt that determined whether Christ would meet them at death. It is a belief that really has worked it's way into some evangelical (and some other Protestant) understanding.

And so ironic that they don't see it as a "human work" based on self and not on God.

But many have this sort of thing drummed into them their whole lives. I've met many who fear examining their beliefs critically because they are afraid it constitutes "doubt" to do so, and that they will perhaps lose their "saving faith" or fall from grace. Even sometimes those who believe one is certainly saved from the point of conversion. It's amazing that they can refuse to see the contradictions there.

And some of the same ones will criticize those who look to Holy Tradition because they consider us to simply accept what we are told. The fact is, every denomination out there has its "tradition" through which they interpret Scripture. Even if it is invented by the individual.

Anyway. Forgive me. I think a lot about how and why beliefs "evolve" and the effects that has on believers. And it's true that what has happened especially since the radical reformation has caused some real errors and crises in believers. And to be honest, this newest "reformation" which I don't think has an accepted title or boundaries yet is the worst of all.

My brother and sister still attend church - finally. But it's still the one that meets in a public hall, serves coffee and snacks before and during, uses secular music, and basically preaches "how to be happy" and is completely centered on self and sometimes doesn't even mention God during a service - I've attended. It has more in common with a club centered around a motivational speaker than a Church. But what I am glad to see is that even so, there are a few lay leaders who are somewhat spiritually mature and are providing real help not too unlike one could find in our own Church. God can work wherever He chooses, of course, and desires the salvation of all men. That's the hope I cling to for the sakes of all who remain in such fringe camps.

This discussion verges on serious judgment of others and has some statements that are not beneficial. God works where He will, and is not limited by where we say He can work.

Honestly, at the end of days when we stand before God, I’d rather be someone who isn’t Orthodox who tries to follow God always in the best way I know, as opposed to a baptized Orthodox where I do not follow the faith or do not live out my life for God. I’m grateful to have seen the fullness of faith (and that fullness of faith is key), but I have a long way to go myself.

To whom much is given, much will be required.

Just because we are baptized and chrismated doesn’t make us “Christian”.

All4Christ said:

This discussion verges on serious judgment of others and has some statements that are not beneficial. God works where He will, and is not limited by where we say He can work.

Honestly, at the end of days when we stand before God, I’d rather be someone who isn’t Orthodox who tries to follow God always in the best way I know, as opposed to a baptized Orthodox where I do not follow the faith or do not live out my life for God. I’m grateful to have seen the fullness of faith (and that fullness of faith is key), but I have a long way to go myself.

To whom much is given, much will be required.

Just because we are baptized and chrismated doesn’t make us “Christian”.

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I agree and like that perspective.

What do we make of Cyprian's No Salvation Outside the Church then?

Markie Boy said:

I agree and like that perspective.

What do we make of Cyprian's No Salvation Outside the Church then?

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There is No Salvation Outside the Church because the Orthodox Church has the Truth and valid Sacraments.

St. John of Damascus quotes John 5:24-30 & it is read at the end of our funeral service. The Lord says those who have done good will be saved & those who did not. It is His Church so, I believe, His Word is clear.

Markie Boy said:

I agree and like that perspective.

What do we make of Cyprian's No Salvation Outside the Church then?

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Remember the situation of the Church at that time. You were either in the church, or leaving the Church / knowingly rejecting the Church. There wasn’t a concept like the various Christian groups we have today. We know that the fullness of the truth is in Orthodox, as are the sacraments, etc, but we don’t limit where God will work. Non-Orthodox Christians have a Savior who desires the salvation of every human being - and he will take care of them. Knowingly rejecting truth though - that’s another matter altogether.

St Theophan the Recluse said this:

You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.

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St. Philaret of New York: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?

David Cabrera said:

There is No Salvation Outside the Church because the Orthodox Church has the Truth and valid Sacraments.

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while true, many souls will join the Orthodox Church at death or even Judgment Day.

ArmyMatt said:

while true, many souls will join the Orthodox Church at death or even Judgment Day.

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I think you've said that before, but I don't recall - what is the source?

Andrei D said:

I think you've said that before, but I don't recall - what is the source?

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one of St Mark of Ephesus' works talks about it as a counter to purgatory.

Should we think that is right for us to be in the Orthodox Church, and that everyone ought to be in the Orthodox Church? Yes.

Should we think that only people who are formally members of the Orthodox Church will be saved? Absolutely not.

Should we think that people outside of the Church can desire to follow Christ, take up their crosses and fulfill His commandments? Yes.

Should we think that such people are nevertheless lacking something in terms of what their church is? Yes.

Should we think they are more worthy of being saved than we are? Yes.

Is it wrong to think that all of the above is right and true? No.

Should we think of them as brothers and sisters in Christ? Yes and no. No in that we do not share one Cup and a single unified Faith. Yes in that God loves them fully as much as He loves us, and aims to make all of us brothers and sisters in a divine sense that we can’t fully grasp. That they strive to love Him as we do makes it necessary that we grant that.

rusmeister said:

Should we think that is right for us to be in the Orthodox Church, and that everyone ought to be in the Orthodox Church? Yes.

Should we think that only people who are formally members of the Orthodox Church will be saved? Absolutely not.

Should we think that people outside of the Church can desire to follow Christ, take up their crosses and fulfill His commandments? Yes.

Should we think that such people are nevertheless lacking something in terms of what their church is? Yes.

Should we think they are more worthy of being saved than we are? Yes.

Is it wrong to think that all of the above is right and true? No.

Should we think of them as brothers and sisters in Christ? Yes and no. No in that we do not share one Cup and a single unified Faith. Yes in that God loves them fully as much as He loves us, and aims to make all of us brothers and sisters in a divine sense that we can’t fully grasp. That they strive to love Him as we do makes it necessary that we grant that.

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I think what you said here is about as good and true as what can be said on this.

My parents were raised Catholic at a time it was commonly said that if you weren't Catholic you were going to hell. Many, many people of their generation will tell you this is what was said.

I still run into this thought pattern in the ultra-Traditional Catholic group it seems, and it's used as a fear tactic.

Whenever I mention the word we get "Church" from means a people, not an institution, not many seem to like that idea.

rusmeister said:

Should we think that is right for us to be in the Orthodox Church, and that everyone ought to be in the Orthodox Church? Yes.

Should we think that only people who are formally members of the Orthodox Church will be saved? Absolutely not.

Should we think that people outside of the Church can desire to follow Christ, take up their crosses and fulfill His commandments? Yes.

Should we think that such people are nevertheless lacking something in terms of what their church is? Yes.

Should we think they are more worthy of being saved than we are? Yes.

Is it wrong to think that all of the above is right and true? No.

Should we think of them as brothers and sisters in Christ? Yes and no. No in that we do not share one Cup and a single unified Faith. Yes in that God loves them fully as much as He loves us, and aims to make all of us brothers and sisters in a divine sense that we can’t fully grasp. That they strive to love Him as we do makes it necessary that we grant that.

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Great explanation!