Are we Saved from the Law or are we expected to keep it?

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

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Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.

Trying to keep it simple...

The Mosaic Law was external and imperfect and is replaced for the believer by the 'Law of the Spirit' in our hearts.

This was predicted by Jeremiah in these two prophesies.

Jer 31
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jer 32
38They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. 41“I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.

So we have a living law in our hearts that directs us to right action in all circumstances - something that the Mosaic Law never did.

Keeping to the Law of the Spirit requires our obedience and results in eternal rewards.
Breaking covenant is rendered impossible by the indwelling fear of Him.

The Law of the Spirit is referenced in Romans 8 as follows:

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Imagine that you designed and built automobiles. You produced millions of automobiles. But it turns out all the automobiles are defective. Whose fault is it?

Now someone comes along who actually reads and follows the instruction manual. His automobile is not defective. Now whose fault are all those defects?

Originally, all sin would fall on God. He designed man and screwed up because all have sinned. That would mean that he would have to wipe out everyone and start over. Jesus comes along and shows that the problem is not man's design. Now God does not have to wipe out everyone. Jesus literally saved us from being wiped out en masse. However, because of Jesus all sin moves from God to the individual. Now you can be judged individually.

You have to follow God's commandments.

Note:

Sending Jesus was not optional. Logically, it was required.

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

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Matthew 5
sure sounds like we should not consider Grace to be a license to not at least attempt to begin to make more and more and more aspects of the Ten Commandments and the other judgments of the Christian and Jewish Bible into a part of our lives.

Christian Forums

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Here is an example of a Jewish Bible scripture that I believe is obviously relevant to Christians and to church leaders.

Exodus 23:19

The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

I think that this means that the churches should be careful to not make their teaching so exaggerated that they drive away the vast majority of young people who are human...... and prone to making errors.

If Jesus hadn't expected us to put the will of the Father ahead of our own and love all as self, He wouldn't have said it. Man simply loves to skirt the fact and self justify our actions.

You never get a straight answer because the basis of the true answer is unthinkable to most Christians.

Your question is not unlike asking if you were saved from the Titanic. “But I was never on the Titanic - it sank decades before i was born.” It is the same thing with the “Law.”

It was not EVER given to you unless you are part of Ethnic Israel. (A Jew) Some. Claim there are various parts of the Law - ceremonial, civil and moral. The Bible never makes that distinction. In fact, James informs us that if we are trying to keep the Law, to err in just one point breaks EVERY point.

But what value does it have for gentile believers today? Much. It helps to understand the Hebrew word we translate as Law is Torah, which can better be rendered as instruction or teaching. It is instruction in how to live as a believer. (Not how to become a believer)

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

***

Trying to keep this brief ... and mostly in "laymen terms" ... certainly can provide supporting scripture.

The confusion comes from ... when reading scripture and sphering out what law or laws are being talked about/referenced in what scriptures one is reading about.

There are the 10 Commandments ... (eternal and everlasting law)

and there are the sacrificial/ceremonial laws, commonly referred to as Mosaic Laws (laws of Moses)

The Mosaic Laws were connected with the temple/sanctuary/sacrificial system and were put in place pointing the Israelites to Jesus (Messiah to come) and their need of a Savior. These are the laws that were nailed to the cross. They were and are no longer needed because Jesus was the final sacrifice for ALL (past, present & future) ... and they did in fact finally end.

Back to the 10 Commandments.

Yes, these laws are still in effect. BUT

Jesus did keep them (the 10) perfectly, and because of Him doing so and because of His sacrifice we are not condemned by them. That is ... Jesus took the penalty and punishment for us. The penalty and punishment for sin is death for eternity (cease to exist).

mankind has a sinful nature and we can not keep them (the 10) perfectly by ourselves.

When we receive Christ, He begins to help us to keep them (the 10) through the Holy Spirit and knowledge of His Word. This is a continuing process throughout one's life. We rely totally on Him to help us avoid temptation and help us overcome our sin. This is done by understanding His word and by the power of the Holy Spirit actively working in the believer. The Holy Spirit along with Gods Word will convict us (let us know when we are sinning and/or being tempted) and help us through it. Often it is a battle that can take time. We are in the middle of a war ... good verses evil. Jesus won the war ... but battles continue until His return.

We are all in different stages in our walk with the Lord, but He meets each of us where we are and begins His work in us. HIS WORK ... not ours. We respond to His work (teaching us) because of our Love for Him and for no other reasons.

If you Love me ... keep my commandments.

We will mess up here and there, this is why we are to continue a close relationship with Him at all times. When we do sin, we confess, repent (turn away from the sin) and receive forgiveness .... yet the battles continue.

The 10 Commandments are laws of LOVE. They are how we know how to have a relationship with the Lord and among mankind.

So do we need to keep the commandments? Yes ... but the motive to do so must be out of LOVE.

LOVE God and LOVE His Laws. The perfection of this relationship is seen clearly in Jesus Christ our Lord. Follow Him ;o)

We love Him because He loved us first.

Always rest in this:

Philippians 1:6; “being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Thank you Jesus for all you do and all you have done and I look forward to your return. AMEN!

God Bless all.

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:
1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,
2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.
i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

Hi Archarios, we weren't saved from the commandments, we've been saved from God's wrath (cf Romans 5:8-9) for not keeping the commandments. Being "forgiven" is hardly the same thing as 1. being inherently innocent and/or 2. being inherently righteous (like Jesus is), because when you have sinned (even once), you are no longer either, but have become instead, a transgressor of the law .. James 2:10-11. No one has/can "keep" the commandments which is why our salvation is based solely upon (merited for us by) what Jesus did for us (and not on anything that 'we' do).

Once we become a believer it becomes a matter of "wanting" (not "needing") to keep them, because our desires have changed from wanting to please ourselves, to wanting to please God instead. The law tells us what it means to be holy and righteous before God, and therefore how we can be pleasing in His sight (because it tells us how we must act/talk/think to become more like Jesus ).

There is also this, along with being saved from our past, present and future sins, and thereby from God's wrath, both in the Judgment and in the age to come, we are also saved from our desire to continue to sin in this life! So, if someone decides to become a Christian because they want a "get out of Hell for free" pass for the next life, but they have no desire to stop sinning and lead a holy, righteous life before Him in this life, then their "claim" of becoming a Christian should not be regarded as anything more than that

When non-Christians sin, they do so according to their nature. When true believers sin, we do so against our new nature/new self in Christ (e.g. Ephesians 4:22-24), because as Christians, we've been given the power not to sin (the problem is that our old nature/old self keeps rearing its ugly head, and sometimes we still succumb to it ).

--David
p.s. - remember that "keeping" the law, such that you can be saved by doing so, means keeping it perfectly in word, deed and thought .. just like Jesus did .. from birth to death. As Christians however, even though we know that we cannot "keep" the law (and are therefore in need of a Savior), we choose to obey the law to be pleasing to Him who loves us and saved us (the One who we now love and desire to please ).

And yet most European, British countries and and the US were built upon, not Christianity, but the principles of the 10 commandments, the reason why they are displayed in public places.

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

After reading the previous answers, I can see what you mean.
Instead of looking at it like "have" to keep the law, look at it as "been enabled" to keep the law.
By law, I don't mean the 400 something ordinances of Judaism, but the law of Christ...Love God above all else and your neighbor as you love yourself.
Everything the Jews taught is included in those words of Jesus.
If you love God, loving your neighbor is part of your reborn nature.

Consider this..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes!

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

As for free will, our will is enmity against God, so we would never of our will do God's will. As Christians, we do God's will by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, doing the good works through us as we submit to Him. As for salvation, the law cannot save or maintain salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." We should walk in good works. It does not say we lose our salvation if we don't always walk in them. We cannot lose our salvation because it was God who chose who is saved, from the foundation of the world.

Sound Doctrine said:

As for free will, our will is enmity against God, so we would never of our will do God's will.

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Only one side is enmity but we were made with both sides. That was the whole point. It's the Gospel of the Kingdom, God's will before our own. Hence the need to overcome our animal instincts for those of the spirit and become a perfect hybrid. If we were hybrids of say supposed life on Mars in order to survive there, would we expect the Martian ways to override our own?

timothyu said:

Only one side is enmity but we were made with both sides. That was the whole point. It's the Gospel of the Kingdom, God's will before our own. Hence the need to overcome our animal instincts for those of the spirit and become a perfect hybrid. If we were hybrids of say supposed life on Mars in order to survive there, would we expect the Martian ways to override our own?

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I disagree. Our deeds are called evil. It is written that none seeketh after God, not one does good, no, not one.

Sound Doctrine said:

Our deeds are called evil. It is written that none seeketh after God, not one does good, no, not one.

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We are imperfect until death but the side we take, the allegiance we show determines our future. Again, Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom. People either accepted this upside down world of His and it's ways or they remained loyal to the ways of man. One side strived to live under the kingdom/governance of God (usually the oppressed), the other side prefers the governance of man (usually the oppressors and their minion supporters).

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

We have been delivered totally from the law. Law is defined as “do”.

Now we are to live by faith. Faith in the power of God to actually fulfill the law in us, not by us.

For it is our one and one personal relationship with Christ, that is now our lives. And the stronger that relationship is, the closer and more will we walk in newness of life.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Sound Doctrine said:

I disagree. Our deeds are called evil. It is written that none seeketh after God, not one does good, no, not one.

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Your misapplication of a scripture Paul used to show the Jews that the law couldn't cut it either for salvation and they too needed Christ neglects the fact that Jesus did seek after God.
As One "did", it invalidates your POV.

timothyu said:

We are imperfect until death but the said we take, the allegiance we show determines our future. Again, Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom. People either accepted this upside down world of His and it's ways or they remained loyal to the ways of man. One side strived to live under the kingdom/governance of God (usually the oppressed), the other side prefers the governance of man (usually the oppressors and their minion supporters).

Click to expand...

It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment, (death); and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
Those who have been crucified with Christ are dead. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
We can be perfect now.

Not me said:

We have been delivered totally from the law. Law is defined as “do”.

Now we are to live by faith. Faith in the power of God to actually fulfill the law in us, not by us.

For it is our one and one personal relationship with Christ, that is now our lives. And the stronger that relationship is, the closer and more will we walk in newness of life.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

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I got my "newness of life" when I was raised with Christ...at my water baptism into Him and His death. (Rom 6:3-6)
Folks shouldn't wait around for something that is readily available.

archarios said:

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i'll hear these two assertions:

1) That we don't need to keep the commandments because we've been saved from them, and,

2) we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we've "been given" the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i'm not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists.

Click to expand...

We are no longer required to enter into the Old Contract to be part of the people of God. The New Contract requires us to love God and each other wholeheartedly.

This was taught to be the requirements of the Old as well, but there were parts of it that would help Israel to identify the Messiah so that they would not sin in rejecting Him. The Jews scoured Scripture looking for ways to have eternal life, but it pointed to Him, they needed to abide in the Christ. How would they abide in Him, if they did not know His attributes? And how would they know, if certain rules did not make it difficult for Jews to socialise with pagan nations, so the genealogy of Messiah could be traced?

Once Christ arrived, identifying characteristics, traceable genealogy and separation from Gentiles was no longer needed.