Catholic?

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
So there are 4 suppose Biblical Principles that prove Purgatory. Numbers 1 and 2 don't do anything to prove Purgatory but deal instead with other ideas--such as God
punishing people ON EARTH after they have been forgiven some sin. Quite obviously, this does not prove that there is a place or state in the afterlife which the church says is Purgatory exists. It isn't the same thing at all.

Principle 4 doesn't do anything but make the claim again! There isn't even an attempt to prove or demonstrate the truth of anything there.

So we come to point 3.

Yes, its the judgment!!! We all believe, do we not, that we will be judged after death? Well, that is what is happening, with good being rewarded and wrong being "burned up...as through fire."

You may say that the rewarding of good is not controversial, but the burning up with fire part must refer to Purgatory. Not so.

First, the verse clearly says that the fire exists in order to test the works, not to torment the person.,

Second, it says that that the person will suffer loss because those acts will be destroyed, not that he will be punished indefinitely for having done wrong. You simply assumed that. There is no mention of punishment there at all.

But even if it were a place of punishment, that is not all that Purgatory is! According to the church that created Purgatory, the workings of the place are complex and diverse, with all sorts of interworkings and explanations...to which you offer us almost nothing but the word fire and say, in effect, ”There you go; that proves Purgatory.” In reality, it doesn't even come close.

I see it VERY differently my friend. You are 'bound' to disagree, just like major1 as you dont truly understand Catholicism and dont agree to scriptures put forward to support Catholic beliefs!

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
People in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive with The Lord and still in the body of Christ.

I agree. The soul lives on. Our 'spirit'. Heaven is real. Those worthy of heaven go there in 'spirit'.

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and the Apostles. They were very much 'alive.'

PoppyB · Jul 1, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
People in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive with The Lord and still in the body of Christ.

People in heaven have died. Where in the bible does it clearly tell us to pray to people who have died and gone to heaven?

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

PoppyB said:
People in heaven have died. Where in the bible does it clearly tell us to pray to people who have died and gone to heaven?

The body has died. The soul lives on.

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

Praying to the dead:

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead
Among other proofs, the Bible casually assumes that great prophets like Moses and Samuel would be praying for those on earth after they died
Dave Armstrong
1) Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus

A) The rich man in Jesus’ story (known in tradition as “Dives”) asks Abraham to intercede, making two requests: a) relief from his suffering in the “bad” part of Hades / Sheol (Lk 16:24), and 2) to send Lazarus to earth to warn his five brothers to repent, so as not to end up in the same place and state (Lk 16:27-28). In Luke 16:27 in the King James Version has him even using the words, “I pray thee.”

B) Whether this is a parable or not (many Protestant commentators say it is not, because parables don’t include proper names), Jesus couldn’t possibly teach doctrinal error by means of the story.

C) Abraham’s refusal to answer the prayer does not prove that he shouldn’t have been prayed to in the first place. Prayers can be refused. He never said, “You can’t pray to me!!!!! Pray only to God!”

D) Nor does his refusal prove that he lacks the power to fulfill the prayer (ultimately due to God’s power, of course). He said no in the first instances, because Dives’ punishment in the afterlife was already determined by God. He refused in the second instance because the “proposal” wasn’t going to work, anyway. He didn’t say, “I don’t have the power to send Lazarus and it’s blasphemous for you to think so.” He said, rather, that if he did send him, it wouldn’t make any difference as to the result Abraham hoped for (Lk 16:21: “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead” [RSV]).

E) Thus we can only conclude that human beings in the afterlife can be prayed to, and that they have the power (delegated through God, using them as vessels or intermediaries) to fulfill the requests: in other words, exactly what the Catholic communion of saints / invocation of saints holds. And it is straight from our Lord Jesus.

F) Had Abraham fulfilled the request it would also be another instance of permitted communication between those in heaven or the afterlife (in this case, Hades) and those on earth, since the dead Lazarus would have returned to earth, to talk to the five brothers. Protestants tell us this is unbiblical and against God’s will (and is the equivalent of necromancy), yet there it is, right in Scripture, from Jesus.

2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death

1 Samuel 28:15-16 (RSV) Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?”

The principle / scenario here is the same as in #1: Samuel could properly be petitioned or, in effect, “prayed to” but he also could refuse the request, and he did so. As Samuel explained, he didn’t question the asking as wrong and sinful, but rather, refused because the request to save Saul was against God’s expressed will: which Samuel also knew about, as a departed saint. Moreover, Samuel knew (after his death) that Saul was to be defeated in battle the next day and would die (1 Sam 28:18-19).

The Bible casually assumes that great prophets like Moses and Samuel would be praying for those on earth after they died:

Jeremiah 15:1 Then the LORD said to me, “Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go! (cf. Heb 12:1; Rev 6:9-10)

Again, it’s not that they couldn’t or shouldn’t pray; rather, even their great prayers (as powerful intercessors: Ex 32:11-12; 1 Sam 7:9; Ps 99:6; Jer 15:1) couldn’t accomplish something if it was already against the will of God. If they in fact weren’t praying to God after their deaths, or shouldn’t have, then God wouldn’t have said that they did so; and/or would have condemned it, having brought it up at all in inspired revelation.

The “bystanders” at Jesus’ crucifixion provide another similar instance. They assumed that He could ask (pray to) the prophet Elijah to save Him from the agony of the cross (Mt 27:46-50). They’re presented as allies of Jesus (not enemies), since one of them gave Him a drink (Mt 27:48). Matthew 27:49 shows that this type of petition was commonly believed at the time.

3) The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead

2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. (cf. 4:19)

4) Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead

Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41. She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life.

Our Lord Jesus does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus (a dead man: John 11:41-42) and then speaks directly to a dead man (in effect, “praying” to him): “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43).

Source: 4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Prayers of supplication are mentioned several times throughout the scriptures. There’s nothing to indicate that prayers to those in heaven are not beneficial and certainly not forbidden. Those who are in heaven are still in the body of Christ.

Wow. Talk about having misread the text. You think that this verse is talking about praying to the people you assume are in heaven now in spirit form.

You are so familiar with using the word saint to mean people who have passed on and ‭ are believed by the church to be in heaven, that you forgot that the word in scripture refers to members of the Church Militant, true believers, Christians still alive on Earth.

And, it is praying FOR the saints, not TO the saints.

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
I see it VERY differently my friend. You are 'bound' to disagree, just like major1 as you dont truly understand Catholicism and don't agree to scriptures put forward to support Catholic beliefs!

Please stop with the personal attacks. If you have proof or a sound argument to offer here, that is all you need.

BNR32FAN · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
So there are 4 suppose Biblical Principles that prove Purgatory. Numbers 1 and 2 don't do anything to prove Purgatory but deal instead with other ideas--such as God
punishing people ON EARTH after they have been forgiven some sin. Quite obviously, this does not prove that there is a place or state in the afterlife which the church says is Purgatory exists. It isn't the same thing at all.

Principle 4 doesn't do anything but make the claim again! There isn't even an attempt to prove or demonstrate the truth of anything there.

So we come to point 3.

Yes, its the judgment!!! We all believe, do we not, that we will be judged after death? Well, that is what is happening, with good being rewarded and wrong being "burned up...as through fire."

You may say that the rewarding of good is not controversial, but the burning up with fire part must refer to Purgatory. Not so.

First, the verse clearly says that the fire exists in order to test the works, not to torment the person.,

Second, it says that that the person will suffer loss because those acts will be destroyed, not that he will be punished indefinitely for having done wrong. You simply assumed that. There is no mention of punishment there at all.

But even if it were a place of punishment, that is not all that Purgatory is! According to the church that created Purgatory, the workings of the place are complex and diverse, with all sorts of interworkings and explanations...to which you offer us almost nothing but the word fire and say, in effect, ”There you go; that proves Purgatory.” In reality, it doesn't even come close.

I agree with you here friend. Purgatory is a very dangerous and false doctrine that is based on nothing but assumptions. It was never taught in the early church. Furthermore I believe it was instituted for nothing more than another way to solicit indulgences since it wasn’t until 1439AD at the council of Florence when the doctrine first appeared. Coincidentally this was during the time when indulgences were being abused and also during the inquisitions which is what led to the reformation. So the leadership of the Roman church during this time was very questionable.

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
People in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive with The Lord and still in the body of Christ.

We get that a lot. We all know that dead as it was used there means a person has come to the end of his physical life and passed into the afterlife. We should not have to write all that out just to avoid being accused of something no one seriously thinks we believe anyway--that there is no life after death.

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
Please stop with the personal attacks. If you have proof or a sound argument to offer here, that is all you need.

We Catholics do provide proof but you and others ALWAYS refuse the proof. No matter what is submitted as proof, you ALWAYS reject it. 'You' must be right. 'Catholicism' must be wrong! According to those that are against the Catholic teachings.

If you see what i have said as a personal attack then i apologise as all i am doing is pointing to your view against Catholicism.

PoppyB · Jul 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
The body has died. The soul lives on.

Where in the bible does it clearly tell us to pray to people who have died and gone to heaven?

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

PoppyB said:
Where in the bible does it clearly tell us to pray to people who have died and gone to heaven?

Read post above no:365

BNR32FAN · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
Wow. Talk about having misread the text. You think that this verse is talking about praying to the people you assume are in heaven now in spirit form.

You are so familiar with using the word saint to mean people who have passed on and ‭ are believed by the church to be in heaven, that you forgot that the word in scripture refers to members of the Church Militant, true believers, Christians still alive on Earth.

And, it is praying FOR the saints, not TO the saints.

No I never said that at all. I said it supports prayers of supplication. You have to put 1+1 together to get 2. Just like the Bible never specifically states that The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit make up the Trinity. The church had to deduce the doctrine of the Trinity by adding up the context of several verses to come to that conclusion. In the same manner the benefit of prayers of supplication in conjunction with those who are believers being absent from the body and present with The Lord having eternal life are still in the body of Christ which is His Church. Hence prayers to the saints can be beneficial since they’re not dead and very much alive and still active members in the church.

BNR32FAN · Jul 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
I agree. The soul lives on. Our 'spirit'. Heaven is real. Those worthy of heaven go there in 'spirit'.

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and the Apostles. They were very much 'alive.'

Yes excellent point I forgot about that one.

BNR32FAN · Jul 1, 2019

PoppyB said:
People in heaven have died. Where in the bible does it clearly tell us to pray to people who have died and gone to heaven?

Like lost4words said Moses and Elijah were certainly not dead when they appeared before Jesus and His apostles. Do you not believe what Jesus said in a John 6:26-58?

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
We Catholics do provide proof but you and others ALWAYS refuse the proof. No matter what is submitted as proof, you ALWAYS reject it. 'You' must be right. 'Catholicism' must be wrong! According to those that are against the Catholic teachings.

First, we do not disagree with everything. There is much that Catholics and Protestants agree on, and for sure there is more that Catholics and Anglicans agree on than they disagree about.

So move on to something other than those doctrines that fractured the church in the past and which today only one church out of 30,000 (yours) believes in, such as Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Papal Supremacy, and Transubstantiation, and we would be largely in harmony.

If you see what i have said as a personal attack then i apologise as all i am doing is pointing to your view against Catholicism.

No, you have been resorting to the 'You don't understand Catholicism' line. That is uncalled for.

concretecamper · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
please stop with the insults. You have no idea what the sum of my knowledge is or what my background is; .

The only thing we all here have to go on is your posts. If that paints you in a certain light, we can't help that.

Lost4words · Jul 1, 2019

Albion said:
First, we do not disagree with everything. There is much that Catholics and Protestants agree on, and for sure there is more that Catholics and Anglicans agree on than they disagree about.

So move on to something other than those doctrines that fractured the church in the past and which today only one church out of 30,000 (yours) believes in, such as Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Papal Supremacy, and Transubstantiation, and we would be largely in harmony.

No, you have been resorting to the 'You don't understand Catholicism' line. That is uncalled for.

Then, if we are the only church that believes in those things then thats fine with me. I see the proofs in the scriptures, as quoted above in my posts. You dont see the evidence. Thats fine.

Its not uncalled for to say that someone doesnt understand Catholicism. It is very much called for when people clearly disregard 'Catholic' evidence for their beliefs.

Catholicism is the most attacked 'faith' on these forums. And clearly, it is mostly from people who do not understand the Catholic church or its teachings fully or properly.

God bless you my friend

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No I never said that at all. I said it supports prayers of supplication.[/quote
Very well, but it doesn't support prayers of supplication TO THE SPIRITS of those who once were mortal and now are though probably to be in heaven.

[qutoe Hence prayers to the saints can be beneficial since they’re not dead and very much alive and still active members in the church.

Assuming that they can hear you and that the object of your prayer is in heaven after all. Those are quite some assumptions, aren't they?

But the main issue here is whether the practice is scriptural or not. You tried earlier to argue that it couldn't hurt, but that doesn't hold up when the churches which favor such prayer encourage it. They are not saying that it is harmless; they are saying it is right
and effective!

Albion · Jul 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
Then, if we are the only church that believes in those things then thats fine with me. I see the proofs in the scriptures, as quoted above in my posts. You dont see the evidence. Thats fine.

It is not that I don't agree. I disproved your claims.

If you can show that I was incorrect there, I don't mind the attempt.

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