Earth, then light (Big Bang), Created on Day One; Sun, Moon and Stars Created on Day Four

Creation day 1 - 4 could have been very long, even millions of, 'present day years', long.

  • This concept is allowable for a Creationist.

    Votes: 14 42.4%
  • This concept is unallowable for a Creationist

    Votes: 19 57.6%
  • The biblical definition of 'day', is one dark, light, cycle; Not 24 hours, until Day Four

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33

StevenMerten

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Science already accepts that all matter, energy, and empty space, just popped into existence, on the head of a needle, 'in the first moment of time'. All we have to do is Time Dilate earth, to only days going by, as billions of years of star formation is occurring at a slower velocity, and science and Creationism, agree with one another. Six Day Creationism can thus be put right along side, atheist 13.8 billion year creation, as its equal, in our public schools.

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According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago.

The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe. Astrophysicists dubbed this titanic explosion the Big Bang.
Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium
 
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jerry kelso

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Ok, let me clarify. Big bang science is ok with the concept that the mass of one septillion stars, on the head of a needle, suddenly popped into existence, and then exploded in a bang.

stevenmerten,

1. Let me clarify.
The Big Bang doesn’t agree with the word of God concerning the context of the scriptures.
God spoke into existence the universe not creating a Big Bang to bring into existence.

2. The stars were ordained of God and were before the earth was created Job 38:7; When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
This was in reference to verse 6; Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone thereof.
Morning stars were singing and shouting at the beginning of the creation of earth.
This means there was already light.

2. According to the scriptures, obscuring of the sun and consequent darkness are always of judgement never of creation ( 6-8; Exodus 10:21; Jeremiah 4:23; Joel 2:31; Revelation 6:21; 8:12; 9:16; 10) note n Genesis 1:3 in Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible.
There was already light and it was obscured. The word “let” means to make appear or made invisible. Compare let in Genesis 13:8; 18:4; 24:14-18; Matthew 7:4; 13:30; 27:22; John 14:1; Phillipians 2:5 for the true sense of. 52 of notes on Genesis Let defines in Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible.
This shows a restoration of Adam’s creation.

3. The second day was the firmament which was called Heaven Genesis 1:8.

4. The third day the waters under the firmament God said to be gathered in one place and let the dry land appear which he called earth vs. 9-10.
Earth was not dry in vs. 2. It was completely submerged in water because of judgement.

5. The arguments between old and young earth positions comes down to hermeneutics but your position doesn’t really seem to fit at all according to any biblical context.
Time wise, the old earth position has always been with the atheist of the age of the earth being perhaps billions of years. That is why the persuasion of the young earth position would accuse the old earth of holding to an evolution position which wasn’t true at all.
The scripture doesn’t say billions of years or one day between original creation and restoration.
Your position can’t be true if there was no Big Bang.
The scripture doesn’t say or imply that God used a Big Bang.
You may not agree but where is your scriptural context to refute all that I have given?
I have seen no scriptural implication given.
If I have missed a scriptural implication or proof clarify for me one more time.
And if you can refute to the scriptures I have shown then I would appreciate it.
Jerry Kelso
 
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StevenMerten

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Ok, so we all agree that science has no problem with a Six Day Creation? Science sees all matter, energy and empty space, popping into existence, from nothing, at the beginning of physical time. Science will agree that, if God created earth first, and then God created everything else in the universe, this will put earth in a near light speed acceleration, due to gravity of everything else in the universe pulling on earth, which will cause Time Dilation. Thus, science will agree that you can have a six day created earth, among, billions of years old, stars, created in Six Days, in a Time Dilation situation like this.

Many Christians see Genesis suggesting Six Day Creation. From all the other Christians posting on my thread, it seems to be Christianity who oppose Six Day Creation, and not science. Do we all agree on this?
 
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dad

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stevenmerten,


2. The stars were ordained of God and were before the earth was created Job 38:7; When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Not the stars of this universe! They were created after the earth. The morning stars then, were not stars in this created firmament.

Jesus is called the Morning star. Obviously He was here before He created this universe.
 
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jerry kelso

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Not the stars of this universe! They were created after the earth. The morning stars then, were not stars in this created firmament.

Jesus is called the Morning star. Obviously He was here before He created this universe.

dad,

1. Yes, Jesus was here before he restored Heaven and Earth.

2. The original creation was made out of things that were not in existence Genesis 1:1.
1:16; he made the same as also.
Verse 1:7; the word made “Asah” Hebrew to make out of already existing material.
It’s the opposite of bara, to create.
When the scriptures read in six days the Lord made Heaven and earth. It refers to their restoration in the 6 days after the curse of Genesis 1:2 and not the original creation in the beginning Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17.
God did created whales v21 and man vs. 26.

3. The stars were from the original creation and were restored for Adams creation. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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dad,

1. Yes, Jesus was here before he restored Heaven and Earth.
I recall in the bible it talks about a time when things WILL be restored. Chapter and verse about how Genesis was a restoration project?!
2. The original creation was made out of things that were not in existence Genesis 1:1.
1:16; he made the same as also.
Verse 1:7; the word made “Asah” Hebrew to make out of already existing material.
It’s the opposite of bara, to create.

Such as Adam, whom He made using dust of earth. Such as Eve, whom He made using the bone of the created man (do you believe there was such a real woman?). Possibly a lot He made after things were started also included some bits of things already created. In no way can this be stretched and changed to mean that He did not also create all things, regardless of whether He may have used things already made. Your insinuation is that the context applies to some pre created universe that was only mentioned later.

Looking at Proverbs 8 we see an eyewitness to creation. It talks also of the earth being here before He prepared the heavens!
When the scriptures read in six days the Lord made Heaven and earth. It refers to their restoration in the 6 days after the curse of Genesis 1:2 and not the original creation in the beginning Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17.
God did created whales v21 and man vs. 26.
Creating the world and all things was actually not any curse! That is not indicated anywhere at all in Scripture. The curse was a result of things after creation. Just because there was some darkness involved in creating earth, (and you claim the sun was here already and hiding!!? ) does not mean it was some evil thing!
3. The stars were from the original creation and were restored for Adams creation. Jerry Kelso
The heavens were finished and God rested. It does not exclude the stars from what He had made in the days given. It was finished. God looked at all this, the stars the earth the sun, all that was mentioned in chapter one, and saw it was good.
 
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jerry kelso

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I recall in the bible it talks about a time when things WILL be restored. Chapter and verse about how Genesis was a restoration project?!


Such as Adam, whom He made using dust of earth. Such as Eve, whom He made using the bone of the created man (do you believe there was such a real woman?). Possibly a lot He made after things were started also included some bits of things already created. In no way can this be stretched and changed to mean that He did not also create all things, regardless of whether He may have used things already made. Your insinuation is that the context applies to some pre created universe that was only mentioned later.

Looking at Proverbs 8 we see an eyewitness to creation. It talks also of the earth being here before He prepared the heavens!
Creating the world and all things was actually not any curse! That is not indicated anywhere at all in Scripture. The curse was a result of things after creation. Just because there was some darkness involved in creating earth, (and you claim the sun was here already and hiding!!? ) does not mean it was some evil thing!
The heavens were finished and God rested. It does not exclude the stars from what He had made in the days given. It was finished. God looked at all this, the stars the earth the sun, all that was mentioned in chapter one, and saw it was good.

dad,

1. The New Earth and the New Heaven will be the final restoration Revelation 21.

2. Genesis 1:1 says: In the beginning God created the Heaven and Earth.
Hebrews 11:3 says: Through faith the world’s were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen are not made of things which do appear.
Another words God spoke everything into existence out of nothing which ever existed before.
That was not true in Adam’s creation. Whales and Man were said to be created and they were.

3. The words “let” and “make” do not mean create.
The morning stars show they were at the foundations of the earth singing Job 38:7.
If the earth came first the morning stars would not have been able to sing.

4. Lucifer ruled the Garden of Eden originally Ezekiel 28:15-19.
He ascended to Heaven and was kicked out of Heaven Isaiah 14:12-15.
Hell was made for the devil Matthew 25:41. It is located in lower parts of the earth Revelation 20 15.
Genesis 3 shows he was working through the serpent in Adam’s Garden of Eden.

5. Yes, I believe Adam and Eve are real people. How do you think we are considered the seed of the first Adam who sinned for the whole human race?

6. Year the original Heaven and Earth were created in Genesis 1:1 was created perfectly out of nothing.
Isaiah 45:18 says the earth was created perfect and not in vain.
Genesis 1:2; was a complete earthly flood full of judgement because of Lucifer’s sin. Whereas, he ruled the earth, after he and his angels sinned they have been residents of the air etc Ephesians 6:12.
Also, Noah’s flood was judgement.
So, the fact is that the flood in Genesis 1:2 was after the original creation of Genesis 1:1.

7. Proverbs 8:23; I (wisdom) was set up from everlasting, (dateless past) Genesis 1:9-10, from the beginning (original creation Genesis 1:1), or ever the earth was (recreation Genesis 1:6).

8. Yes, God saw all creation of Adam which was a recreation was good. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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dad,

1. The New Earth and the New Heaven will be the final restoration Revelation 21.
Great. Notice in Isa this is referred to as creating!

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
2. Genesis 1:1 says: In the beginning God created the Heaven and Earth.
Hebrews 11:3 says: Through faith the world’s were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen are not made of things which do appear.
Another words God spoke everything into existence out of nothing which ever existed before.
That was not true in Adam’s creation. Whales and Man were said to be created and they were.
Since He used the dust to form man the word 'made' is great. Think of the word as an adjective describing creation! 'He made Adam and created him using some created dust in the act'

3. The words “let” and “make” do not mean create.
The morning stars show they were at the foundations of the earth singing Job 38:7.
If the earth came first the morning stars would not have been able to sing.
Yes, stars existed before the universe we know did, just as the Morning Star who created it did.
4. Lucifer ruled the Garden of Eden originally Ezekiel 28:15-19.
That garden may not have been the earth garden!

He ascended to Heaven and was kicked out of Heaven Isaiah 14:12-15.

That is prophesy, of course. No question.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Anyone familiar with prophesy would recognize this immediately.
Genesis 3 shows he was working through the serpent in Adam’s Garden of Eden.
Of course he was .. also in that garden!
5. Yes, I believe Adam and Eve are real people. How do you think we are considered the seed of the first Adam who sinned for the whole human race?

OK So Eve was really taken from a bone in a created man...
Isaiah 45:18 says the earth was created perfect and not in vain.
He does have a plan and it was perfect...yes.

Genesis 1:2; was a complete earthly flood full of judgement because of Lucifer’s sin
Total fantasy and made up nonsense.

. Whereas, he ruled the earth, after he and his angels sinned they have been residents of the air etc Ephesians 6:12.
Some are locked up in the pit, some on earth and some in space that will fall in the end.


Also, Noah’s flood was judgement.
So, the fact is that the flood in Genesis 1:2 was after the original creation of Genesis 1:1.
7. Proverbs 8:23; I (wisdom) was set up from everlasting, (dateless past) Genesis 1:9-10, from the beginning (original creation Genesis 1:1), or ever the earth was (recreation Genesis 1:6).

The beginning, or...since the earth was...what about it?
8. Yes, God saw all creation of Adam which was a recreation was good. Jerry Kelso
You are adding to the bible and have zero support from it...or anywhere else.
 
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jerry kelso

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Great. Notice in Isa this is referred to as creating!

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Since He used the dust to form man the word 'made' is great. Think of the word as an adjective describing creation! 'He made Adam and created him using some created dust in the act'

Yes, stars existed before the universe we know did, just as the Morning Star who created it did.
That garden may not have been the earth garden!



That is prophesy, of course. No question.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Anyone familiar with prophesy would recognize this immediately.
Of course he was .. also in that garden!


OK So Eve was really taken from a bone in a created man...
He does have a plan and it was perfect...yes.

Total fantasy and made up nonsense.

Some are locked up in the pit, some on earth and some in space that will fall in the end.


Also, Noah’s flood was judgement.
So, the fact is that the flood in Genesis 1:2 was after the original creation of Genesis 1:1.


The beginning, or...since the earth was...what about it?
You are adding to the bible and have zero support from it...or anywhere else.

dad,

1. Your answers for the most part are opinion and conjecture.

2. Isaiah 65:17 is prophetic to the final restoration which is bringing into existence not annihilation and creating something out of nothing.
Revelation 21:1; And I saw a New Heaven and New Earth : for the first Heaven and the First Earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.
The Greek parerchomai means pass from one condition to another.

3. Their bodies were formed but their life was created. Compare Genesis 1:1 with Genesis 1:24-28.

4. I gave you the scriptures for the pre-adamite world that Lucifer ruled over Ezekiel 28:15-19. Matthew 25:41 shows that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels which is located in the lower parts of the earth Ephesians 4:9.
You can’t prove the scripture wrong.

5. Isaiah 14:12-15 is not prophetic. The King of Babylon is not Lucifer.
Lucifer was created perfect till he sinned Ezekiel 28:15. The King of Babylon was a mere man.
Not even the future Antichrist will be sinless.

6. Lucifer’s flood destroyed even the vegetation Genesis 2:5-6, Jeremiah 4:23-26 Noah’s flood did not Genesis 8:11, 22; 9:3.
Both Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 states the phrase without form and void.
Genesis 7-8 in Noah’s flood never used the term.

7. Yes Hell has the angels who sinned and left their first estate Jude 1:6-7.
They are the prince of the powers of the air Ephesians 6:12.
They do have regions that they control Daniel 12:13.

8. I gave the scripture and the progression was that wisdom was everlasting which is the the dateless past before Genesis 1:1.
Wisdom was in the beginning of Genesis 1:1.
Or ever was the earth wisdom was in the recreation after Genesis 1:2.
That is scripture. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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dad,

1. Your answers for the most part are opinion and conjecture.
Scripture and logic 101 actually.


2. Isaiah 65:17 is prophetic to the final restoration which is bringing into existence not annihilation and creating something out of nothing.
The new heaven and earth it speaks of (that is mentioned in other places like Revelation) is called creating.
Revelation 21:1; And I saw a New Heaven and New Earth : for the first Heaven and the First Earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.
The Greek parerchomai means pass from one condition to another.
Great, and yet is it also referred to as creation!
3. Their bodies were formed but their life was created. Compare Genesis 1:1 with Genesis 1:24-28.
4. I gave you the scriptures for the pre-adamite world that Lucifer ruled over Ezekiel 28:15-19.

The mere fact that the serpent was in Eden does not mean he ruled over it. Your insinuation is that there was some long ages before Adam lived that he was there. There is no support for the claim.


Matthew 25:41 shows that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels which is located in the lower parts of the earth Ephesians 4:9.
No. Jesus descended long ago. The devil is not cast into the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels till 1000 years after Christ returns to earth!

5. Isaiah 14:12-15 is not prophetic. The King of Babylon is not Lucifer.
Lucifer was created perfect till he sinned Ezekiel 28:15. The King of Babylon was a mere man.
Not even the future Antichrist will be sinless.
Apparently you did not notice that God was talking TO Satan via that wicked king in whom Satan also was!?

6. Lucifer’s flood destroyed even the vegetation Genesis 2:5-6, Jeremiah 4:23-26 Noah’s flood did not Genesis 8:11, 22; 9:3.

For lurkers, in case someone is bible illiterate, here is Gen 2:5,6

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

That explains how things were watered at that time on earth, before any rain existed. Calling that some demon flood is truly ridiculous.

Both Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 states the phrase without form and void.
Genesis 7-8 in Noah’s flood never used the term.
Jer 4 is God speaking and referring to creation week. Why would it mirror the flood He sent many many centuries later??
7. Yes Hell has the angels who sinned and left their first estate Jude 1:6-7.
They are the prince of the powers of the air Ephesians 6:12.
They do have regions that they control Daniel 12:13.

True. There is demonic influence here. There will be more once the pit is opened releasing them, and they are cast from space to earth of course, obviously. The holding places for demons is temporary, until they get cast into the lake of fire forever.


8. I gave the scripture and the progression was that wisdom was everlasting which is the the dateless past before Genesis 1:1.
Of course His wisdom predates earth.

Or ever was the earth wisdom was in the recreation after Genesis 1:2.
Why make stuff up? Worse yet why make stuff up contrary to Scripture and call it scripture?
 
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jerry kelso

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Scripture and logic 101 actually.


The new heaven and earth it speaks of (that is mentioned in other places like Revelation) is called creating.
Great, and yet is it also referred to as creation!



The mere fact that the serpent was in Eden does not mean he ruled over it. Your insinuation is that there was some long ages before Adam lived that he was there. There is no support for the claim.



No. Jesus descended long ago. The devil is not cast into the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels till 1000 years after Christ returns to earth!


Apparently you did not notice that God was talking TO Satan via that wicked king in whom Satan also was!?



For lurkers, in case someone is bible illiterate, here is Gen 2:5,6

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

That explains how things were watered at that time on earth, before any rain existed. Calling that some demon flood is truly ridiculous.

Jer 4 is God speaking and referring to creation week. Why would it mirror the flood He sent many many centuries later??


True. There is demonic influence here. There will be more once the pit is opened releasing them, and they are cast from space to earth of course, obviously. The holding places for demons is temporary, until they get cast into the lake of fire forever.


Of course His wisdom predates earth.

Why make stuff up? Worse yet why make stuff up contrary to Scripture and call it scripture?

dad,

1. Scriptural logic? You haven’t really shown none.

2. You are disagreeing but aren’t refuting with the scripture just your opinion and void of context.
I qualified about creating by the Hebrew and the context.
There are multiple meanings to a word at times whether Hebrew, Greek, or English, but the context will determine
which one is correct. Such is the case with the word creating.

3. You can argue about the serpent in the garden but I backed it up by Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28 where he ruled on earth. You gave no scriptural refutation.

4. I am glad you agree that Jesus descended a long time ago and that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire in the future. That will happen 1000 years after the beast Revelation 20:10 and false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire Revelation 19:20.

5. Both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are double reference such as Matthew 16:21-23.

6. Genesis 2:5-6 I didn’t say it was the flood. It shows what was destroyed in the flood of Genesis 1:2. Quit twisting my words and thwarting the context.

7. Jeremiah 4 is before the creation week of Adam. There was no flood during days 1-7.

8. I have given scripture and you can’t refute it and have twisted and gave your opinion. You are not rightly dividing the word. Show a little honesty and scriptural understanding. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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I qualified about creating by the Hebrew and the context.
You inserted stuff and ignored stuff, and did not offer any support in the rest of the bible.

There are multiple meanings to a word at times whether Hebrew, Greek, or English, but the context will determine
which one is correct. Such is the case with the word creating.
No need to rely on mental perturbations since we have the whole of Scripture to go to. When your contrived idea of what something means flies in the face of the usual and bible wide statements on the issue, you can consider yourself corrected and proceed accordingly.
3. You can argue about the serpent in the garden but I backed it up by Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28 where he ruled on earth. You gave no scriptural refutation.
If you really do not understand how prophesy works and how God can talk to someone while also really talking to Satan influencing that person, then you are bound to be confused. God was speaking to Satan through kings in the chapters you cite of course. Jesus showed the same thing as He spoke to Satan via Peter! He also showed how prophesy works by stopping mid verse in a prophesy about Himself, because the rest of the verse lept far into the future to His return to earth!

4. I am glad you agree that Jesus descended a long time ago and that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire in the future. That will happen 1000 years after the beast Revelation 20:10 and false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire Revelation 19:20.
Right.
5. Both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are double reference such as Matthew 16:21-23.
No. Part of what was spoken about Satan in Isa 14, for example had to do with his influence on nations. That is not after he is thrown in the lake. Nor is the bit where he was in Eden.
6. Genesis 2:5-6 I didn’t say it was the flood. It shows what was destroyed in the flood of Genesis 1:2. Quit twisting my words and thwarting the context.
Of course you did not say it was THE oof Noah that was from God. You indicated some hell caused flood right there in the creation itself! I am sorry, but you seem to think Satan has some sort of power against God!? Ha. He is like an ant when it comes to any ability to fight against the Almighty! The devil can do nothing at all without permission.
7. Jeremiah 4 is before the creation week of Adam. There was no flood during days 1-7.
I looked at Jer 4 just now. I see it is prophesy about the end time and last days. The signiture events through the bile for this time are even noted, the sun going dark, earth shaking etc etc.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

This cannot be before plants were created, since it is AFTER they grew and became desolate! This is not before birds were created, it is obviously AFTER they fled from something awful! This is not before man and cities on earth but after when they are broken and destroyed! This is not creation week, that was goo, this is the time of His anger spoken of by the prophets through Scripture! This is not before mountains exist but after they are brought down low! This is not before the sun and stars existed, but after when they are prophesied to go dark in the end days.

Wow.
8. I have given scripture and you can’t refute it and have twisted and gave your opinion.
It is totally absolutely unequivocally refuted. You were not even close.

You might ask yourself why that is.
 
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jerry kelso

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You inserted stuff and ignored stuff, and did not offer any support in the rest of the bible.

No need to rely on mental perturbations since we have the whole of Scripture to go to. When your contrived idea of what something means flies in the face of the usual and bible wide statements on the issue, you can consider yourself corrected and proceed accordingly.

If you really do not understand how prophesy works and how God can talk to someone while also really talking to Satan influencing that person, then you are bound to be confused. God was speaking to Satan through kings in the chapters you cite of course. Jesus showed the same thing as He spoke to Satan via Peter! He also showed how prophesy works by stopping mid verse in a prophesy about Himself, because the rest of the verse lept far into the future to His return to earth!


Right.
No. Part of what was spoken about Satan in Isa 14, for example had to do with his influence on nations. That is not after he is thrown in the lake. Nor is the bit where he was in Eden.
Of course you did not say it was THE oof Noah that was from God. You indicated some hell caused flood right there in the creation itself! I am sorry, but you seem to think Satan has some sort of power against God!? Ha. He is like an ant when it comes to any ability to fight against the Almighty! The devil can do nothing at all without permission.
I looked at Jer 4 just now. I see it is prophesy about the end time and last days. The signiture events through the bile for this time are even noted, the sun going dark, earth shaking etc etc.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

This cannot be before plants were created, since it is AFTER they grew and became desolate! This is not before birds were created, it is obviously AFTER they fled from something awful! This is not before man and cities on earth but after when they are broken and destroyed! This is not creation week, that was goo, this is the time of His anger spoken of by the prophets through Scripture! This is not before mountains exist but after they are brought down low! This is not before the sun and stars existed, but after when they are prophesied to go dark in the end days.

Wow.
It is totally absolutely unequivocally refuted. You were not even close.

You might ask yourself why that is.[/QUOTE

dad,

1. You know I have offered scriptural support in the Old and New Testaments, so quit telling untruths.
You may not agree with the assessment and I that is your choice but you should not tell outright untruths.
Inserting and ignoring stuff is a general statement of accusation and is not specifically shown.
Mental perturbations and being contrived? That is like the pot caught in the kettle black.
Corrected? That is laughable seeing that you want to argue your opinion instead of soundness of scripture. Try being honest for a change instead of merely hurling insults.

2. We agree with a double reference such as in the case of Satan using Peter when Jesus rebuked Peter.
Isaiah 14 is prophetic basically about the Antichrist and verses 8-11 is the taunt of hell to the Antichrist and verses 12:15 is the taunt of Lucifer.
Lucifer rebelled and weakened the nations and the Antichrist will weaken the nations but, the Antichrist will not be Lucifer and since he is future he was never at the original angelic rebellion in Heaven.
Ezekiel 28:1-6; The prince of Tyrus was earthly: Ithobalas 11.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 is the angelic King of Tyrus.
Verse 15 shows he was sinless till the day iniquity was found in him. This could not fit any earthly king or the Antichrist.
Do you disagree with this scriptural truth?

3. I did not say or imply Satan caused a flood. It was because of his sin we see the earth covered in water in Genesis 1:2. God gives judgement to sin. God has been and is and will always have control over all.
Either you don’t have ability to comprehend or you are twisting what I am saying on purpose? Which one?

4. You believe that Jeremiah is about the last days and shows it by the sun going dark and the earth being shaken etc. That is a superficial reading and reasoning of verses 23-26.
The only time the earth was without form and void was in Genesis 1:2.
Isaiah 24:1,3 says the Lord will make the earth empty and the land utterly emptied. But this is talking more in line with Judah.
Verse 4 is about judgement on earth where it mourns and fades away is not a full state of without form and void otherwise Christ and his heavenly armies would not be fighting anyone at Armageddon.

5. To say my position according to the scriptures is totally, absolutely, unequivocally refuted and not even close is nothing short of ignorance and probably willful at that. It also shows that you are not willing to be fair in proper debate and rebuttal and rightly dividing the scriptures.
You can disagree but quit being unfair. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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The clear signature signs in prophesy regarding the last days are well known, and deal with specific events of that time such as the darkened universe, mountains leveled, islands moved, birds eating flesh of man etc etc etc. To try and pawn off a heavily prophetic passage as if it were about some never never time not mentioned in the bible before creation is cultish and displays a deadness of comprehension of basic Scripture.
 
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jerry kelso

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The clear signature signs in prophesy regarding the last days are well known, and deal with specific events of that time such as the darkened universe, mountains leveled, islands moved, birds eating flesh of man etc etc etc. To try and pawn off a heavily prophetic passage as if it were about some never never time not mentioned in the bible before creation is cultish and displays a deadness of comprehension of basic Scripture.

dad,

1. You obviously, didn’t read my post above about proper context.

2. Jeremiah 4:7,9 is about the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar in the past and continues to v22.

3. Vs.23-26 had to be in Genesis 1 for this state of the earth has never been since.
There had been light after Genesis 1:2 and since verse 3. The darkness was between Genesis 1:1-1:2.
Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at the time as proved in vs. 31-35-36, Genesis 1:14-19;Psalm 72:5; 17:89:35-37.
It couldn’t be Noah’s flood because there was still lights etc.

4. The point is that the land of Judah would be made desolate was a comparison between the two time. The original creation was without form and void desolate where as Judah will not be in the future. Verse 27, God would not make a full end to Judah as he did to the original earth.
So cultish and deadness of comprehension would be closer to your wrong assessment. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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dad,

1. You obviously, didn’t read my post above about proper context.

2. Jeremiah 4:7,9 is about the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar in the past and continues to v22.
It was also for Satan, to whom God talked directly through the king.
3. Vs.23-26 had to be in Genesis 1 for this state of the earth has never been since.
It could not have been pre creation earth, since we see there is also ruined cities, which mean man's cities, there are birds, and etc. All who exist because they were once created. then there are multiple references to the period of time in the very end that is well known in prophesy through the bible. It talks about the time the earth will morn, and the Lord's anger, and bible students will know what that is. The chapter even ends with the phrase Jesus used to describe the time 'woman in travail'! That time is not creation week, to put it mildly.

There had been light after Genesis 1:2 and since verse 3. The darkness was between Genesis 1:1-1:2.
Yes there was a time of darkness in the creating of earth. The light did exist, but He also divided the light from the darkness. So when we see some darkness over earth that does not mean there was not also light somewhere.

Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at the time as proved in vs. 31-35-36, Genesis 1:14-19;Psalm 72:5; 17:89:35-37.
NO laws or anything else was given to the stars or sun UNTIL He first created them, obviously.
It couldn’t be Noah’s flood because there was still lights etc.
Of course creation week had nothing to do with a flood some 1600 years later.
4. The point is that the land of Judah would be made desolate was a comparison between the two time.
No, since that land is central in end time prophesy, and it is a prophetic chapter in Jer, you cannot grab the reference to Israel in the time of the fierce anger of the Lord and insert that into creation week!!

The original creation was without form and void desolate where as Judah will not be in the future.
Great, so there is some similarity with the wrath of God on earth, and what it maybe looked like in an early stage of creation. So what?
Verse 27, God would not make a full end to Judah as he did to the original earth.
You made that up. The prophetic term not making a full end has to do with saving a remnant of people, rather than having them all kill themselves or be killed. That is basic prophesy.

But I see you do not seem willing to give up your gross misunderstanding of creation and prophesy and the bible in general, so I guess we will disagree. I think our positions have been laid out clearly.

Cheers.
 
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jerry kelso

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It was also for Satan, to whom God talked directly through the king.
It could not have been pre creation earth, since we see there is also ruined cities, which mean man's cities, there are birds, and etc. All who exist because they were once created. then there are multiple references to the period of time in the very end that is well known in prophesy through the bible. It talks about the time the earth will morn, and the Lord's anger, and bible students will know what that is. The chapter even ends with the phrase Jesus used to describe the time 'woman in travail'! That time is not creation week, to put it mildly.

Yes there was a time of darkness in the creating of earth. The light did exist, but He also divided the light from the darkness. So when we see some darkness over earth that does not mean there was not also light somewhere.

NO laws or anything else was given to the stars or sun UNTIL He first created them, obviously.
Of course creation week had nothing to do with a flood some 1600 years later.
No, since that land is central in end time prophesy, and it is a prophetic chapter in Jer, you cannot grab the reference to Israel in the time of the fierce anger of the Lord and insert that into creation week!!

Great, so there is some similarity with the wrath of God on earth, and what it maybe looked like in an early stage of creation. So what?
You made that up. The prophetic term not making a full end has to do with saving a remnant of people, rather than having them all kill themselves or be killed. That is basic prophesy.

But I see you do not seem willing to give up your gross misunderstanding of creation and prophesy and the bible in general, so I guess we will disagree. I think our positions have been laid out clearly.

Cheers.

dad,

1. The Heaven and the earth was created perfect Isaiah 45:18 and created out of nothing that was in existence by the word of his mouth Hebrew 11:3 in the beginning Genesis 1:1.

2. Without form and void in Genesis 1:2 is judgement.The Hebrew is tohu va bohu meaning waste and empty Jeremiah 4:23. The earth was not created tohu in the beginning Isaiah 45:18. It became tohu because of sin.
Obscuring the sun and consequent darkness are always a result of judgement, never of creation Genesis 6-8; Exodus 10:21; Jeremiah 4:23; Joel 2:31; Revelation 6:12; 8:12; 9:6-10. Dakes notes m and n on Genesis 1:1-1:2.
The cities, wilderness, man etc as expressed in Jeremiah 4:23 is the basic understanding of a society ruled by Lucifer over his subjects Ezekiel 28:15-19.
Lucifer defiled those sanctuaries by his many sins in the pre-adamite world where they worshipped God
Verse 18 he put forth his greatest efforts to make his subjects rebel against God.
Man in the pre-adamite world is from the sanctuaries as goyim meaning gentiles.
This goes in line with Genesis 1:28 God telling Adam to replenish the earth which shows a social system compare Genesis 9:1; Isaiah 2:6, 23:2, Jeremiah 31:25, Ezekiel 26:2, 27:25.

3. So going back to Jeremiah 4:23-26 is the original earth chaos Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 14:12-14; and 2 Peter 3:5-8.

4. 2 Peter 3:5-8; that by the word of God, the Heaven’s were of old, standing out of the water and in the water.
Whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water perished. This was the pre-adamite world
But the Heaven’s and the earth which are now v 7, Genesis 1:3-2:25.
Verse 13; the New Heaven’s and the New Earth, Isaiah 65:17, 66:22-24,Revelation 21-22.

5. I never said anything about the travail of a woman being in creation week. And it doesn’t mean without form and void which happened in Genesis 1:2.

6. Not making a full end means that the whole of Judah he would not destroy Genesis 1:2 was a full end of life.
They were both made desolate and empty but he would not or will not in the future make a full or complete end as in Genesis 1:2.

7. You are the one trying to match up the wording to make them the same equal condition.
Keep your view and confusion you will always be wrong and confused. Jerry Kelso
 
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dad

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dad,

1. The Heaven and the earth was created perfect Isaiah 45:18 and created out of nothing that was in existence by the word of his mouth Hebrew 11:3 in the beginning Genesis 1:1.

2. Without form and void in Genesis 1:2 is judgement.The Hebrew is tohu va bohu meaning waste and empty Jeremiah 4:23. The earth was not created tohu in the beginning Isaiah 45:18. It became tohu because of sin.
Well, empty does not mean birds and cities, and disturbed mountains and etc etc.

Obscuring the sun and consequent darkness are always a result of judgement, never of creation Genesis 6-8; Exodus 10:21; Jeremiah 4:23; Joel 2:31; Revelation 6:12; 8:12; 9:6-10. Dakes notes m and n on Genesis 1:1-1:2.
Not in creation week. You are inserting judgment onto a beautiful good event.

The cities, wilderness, man etc as expressed in Jeremiah 4:23 is the basic understanding of a society ruled by Lucifer over his subjects Ezekiel 28:15-19.

A society on earth that had cities filled with what, if not men? Aliens?
Lucifer defiled those sanctuaries by his many sins in the pre-adamite world where they worshipped God
Whatever he defiled before the earth was created was not here. He did not appear to Eve wearing those jewels and instruments talked about that he was created. We also know he was later thrown down to earth. There was also no mention of any mountain of Gd in Eden. Satan also was perfect when he was created and certainly was not perfect in the garden on earth!

Verse 18 he put forth his greatest efforts to make his subjects rebel against God.
Man in the pre-adamite world is from the sanctuaries as goyim meaning gentiles.
Adam was the FIRST man, Scripture plainly says.

This goes in line with Genesis 1:28 God telling Adam to replenish the earth which shows a social system

False.


The word replenish actually means this in Hebrew.

"
to fill, be full
  1. (Qal)
    1. to be full 1a
  2. fulness, abundance (participle) 1a
  3. to be full, be accomplished, be ended
    1. to consecrate, fill the hand
  4. (Niphal)
    1. to be filled, be armed, be satisfied
    2. to be accomplished, be ended
  5. (Piel)
    1. to fill
    2. to satisfy
    3. to fulfil, accomplish, complete
    4. to confirm"
So forget trying to compare other places in the bible where the meaning is not the same.
3. So going back to Jeremiah 4:23-26 is the original earth chaos
Jerimiah 4 is a prophetic chapter about the end time. Clearly.

4. 2 Peter 3:5-8; that by the word of God, the Heaven’s were of old, standing out of the water and in the water.
Whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water perished. This was the pre-adamite world

The created world (that did involve water) was later flooded in the time of Noah. Nothing to do with uncreated people living with the devil on earth before the earth was created. Sorry.


5. I never said anything about the travail of a woman being in creation week. And it doesn’t mean without form and void which happened in Genesis 1:2.
The chapter you cited was prophestic even including the phrase about travail. You tried to say that it referred to your imaginary world of cities and devils before Adam and the earth was created.
6. Not making a full end means that the whole of Judah he would not destroy Genesis 1:2 was a full end of life.
What you strain at nats looking for any verse that has full or life in it to try and fit your imaginary pre creation world!!?

They were both made desolate and empty but he would not or will not in the future make a full or complete end as in Genesis 1:2.
The early earth not yet having the rich life and features that it would have days later, does not mean judgment, it means that is what it was like early in the week of creation.
 
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2. The stars were ordained of God and were before the earth was created Job 38:7; When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
This was in reference to verse 6; Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone thereof.
Morning stars were singing and shouting at the beginning of the creation of earth.
This means there was already light.

The stars were angels.
 
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Whatever he defiled before the earth was created was not here. He did not appear to Eve wearing those jewels and instruments talked about that he was created. We also know he was later thrown down to earth. There was also no mention of any mountain of Gd in Eden. Satan also was perfect when he was created and certainly was not perfect in the garden on earth!

Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.


From what I see "You were in Eden" refers to the pre-fallen Satan. I believe Satan fell after Eden was created.
 
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