Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

BABerean2 said:

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

.

Click to expand...

Acts 11
Yes, I know of that verse. There are ONLY two occasions in scripture of which this kind of event happened.

1- Acts 2:1-5
2 - Acts 10 - Cornelius

None of those only two events, indicated that one had salvation, and didn't need baptism, as in immersion in water.

Cornelius was a special circumstance that allowed our Lord to show the Jews, that the Gentiles are also chosen people. That was the WHOLE purpose to Peter explaining Acts 11. He was telling the Jews that Gentiles are going to be part of the kingdom, the body of Christ, the church.

Notice in Acts 10, Cornelius (and household) STILL had to be baptized.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter received it that same way, in which they received "miraculous gifts". See Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Notice both times, it never leaves it as if they were saved, it only mentions that they get miraculous gifts "tongues", and the likes. Compare:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

They still needed baptism.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just as Peter told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You WILL NOT find any other scripture in the NT that has this event happen. Everyone else except the Apostles needed to have hands laid on them to receive miraculous gifts, I use Acts 8 as an example. The Apostles were chosen, so of course our Lord would bestow the gift supernaturally to them. Cornelius was a special event that allowed Jews to see first hand that they were chosen too. It never said they were saved by the Holy Spirit coming down on them as the apostles in Acts 2. But according to what Peter said in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-21, Cornelius was baptized just as the Philippian Jailer, the Ethiopian, Lydia, and all the others into water.

nolidad said:

YOu cannot take the book of acts to establish doctrine.

Click to expand...

This quote right here is why I will no longer discuss anything with you. This clearly shows you do not hold that the entire bible is an established authority. It shows you hold contempt for any scripture you pick and choose. You have no evidence. You brought no evidence as to why you think that way. You have to understand, I cannot take your word for it.

We are done. Thank you for your time.

Acts2:38 said:

Acts 11
Yes, I know of that verse. There are ONLY two occasions in scripture of which this kind of event happened.

1- Acts 2:1-5
2 - Acts 10 - Cornelius

None of those only two events, indicated that one had salvation, and didn't need baptism, as in immersion in water.

Cornelius was a special circumstance that allowed our Lord to show the Jews, that the Gentiles are also chosen people. That was the WHOLE purpose to Peter explaining Acts 11. He was telling the Jews that Gentiles are going to be part of the kingdom, the body of Christ, the church.

Notice in Acts 10, Cornelius (and household) STILL had to be baptized.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter received it that same way, in which they received "miraculous gifts". See Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Notice both times, it never leaves it as if they were saved, it only mentions that they get miraculous gifts "tongues", and the likes. Compare:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

They still needed baptism.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just as Peter told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You WILL NOT find any other scripture in the NT that has this event happen. Everyone else except the Apostles needed to have hands laid on them to receive miraculous gifts, I use Acts 8 as an example. The Apostles were chosen, so of course our Lord would bestow the gift supernaturally to them. Cornelius was a special event that allowed Jews to see first hand that they were chosen too. It never said they were saved by the Holy Spirit coming down on them as the apostles in Acts 2. But according to what Peter said in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-21, Cornelius was baptized just as the Philippian Jailer, the Ethiopian, Lydia, and all the others into water.

Click to expand...

You are ignoring what Peter said about baptism.
Notice the quote from Christ in Peter's words found in the passage below.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Does Christ baptize with water, or does He baptize with the Holy Spirit?
What did John the Baptist say below?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Compare the number of times the word "water" is found below, in comparison to the number of times the word "spirit" is found.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Nobody inherits the kingdom of God through water. However, we all enter this world through the amniotic fluid of our mother's womb. If you do not understand being "born of water" talk to a pregnant woman whose water has just burst.

A person can only inherit the kingdom of God by being "born-again" of the Spirit of God.

Based on Christ's words in John 3:10, Nicodemus was supposed to know this fact.

.

BABerean2 said:

You are ignoring what Peter said about baptism.
Notice the quote from Christ in Peter's words found in the passage below.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Does Christ baptize with water, or does He baptize with the Holy Spirit?
What did John the Baptist say below?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire

Click to expand...

No, I am not ignoring what he said. You are missing the key point. What {Happened} when the Holy Spirit fell on them this way?

They received power, they received miraculous gifts. It showed the Jews in Acts 11, Gentiles are a chosen people too.

Peter then told them in Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just like he told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Just like Peter AGAIN told us in 1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Every time here, Peter is talking about water. So, do you think maybe you misunderstood what exactly he was talking about in Acts 11:15-16? Peter is referring to Acts 1, when he "remembered what the Lord said", then you see that it happened in Acts 2:1-4.

Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-45 are the ONLY TWO times you see the Holy Ghost act this way. You will NOT find another like those. And, Cornelius STILL needed water, "can any man forbid them water?"" and he commanded them be baptized"

BABerean2 said:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Click to expand...

I know I separate quoted each of your scriptures here, but really I could sum them up here with these scriptures.

Acts 2:38 "repent, be baptized" = " for remission of sins; Holy Ghost"
Galatians 3:27 "baptized" = "you put on Christ"
Mark 16:16 "believe, be baptized" = "your saved"
1 Peter 3:20-21 "baptism with water saves" = "not that water saves, but the act of a good conscience toward God, for the remission of sins" Compare Titus 3:5

In every scripture you gave me, Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, 1st, 2nd, 3rd John even, they are all ALREADY CHRISTIANS.

That's why it states that they are "sealed with the Spirit of promise".

Why?

Because they were baptized in the fashion that Peter, and Paul, taught.
Examples:
Paul - Combine Romans 6:3-5 with 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Yes, the gospel means "good news" in Greek, but Paul further defined what that meant in 1 Corinthians 15, Death, burial, and resurrection. Then you look at what Paul said in Romans 6. We obey that gospel with baptism into death with Christ (verse 3), Buried with Christ by baptism (verse 4), then raised by Him to walk a "newness of life" (verse 4).

Nowhere does it define this baptism as the Holy Ghost falling on them like Acts 2 or 10.

Peter - Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:20-21

Even Ananias told Paul Acts 22:16 "Why tarry, arise, be baptized, washing away your sins". Kinda goes hand in hand with Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

BABerean2 said:

Nobody inherits the kingdom of God through water. However, we all enter this world through the amniotic fluid of our mother's womb. If you do not understand being "born of water" talk to a pregnant woman whose water has just burst.

A person can only inherit the kingdom of God by being "born-again" of the Spirit of God.

Based on Christ's words in John 3:10, Nicodemus was supposed to know this fact.

Click to expand...

It's like you acknowledged John 3:5, but then discard it when John 3:10 comes around. Just because Christ mentioned it once compared to mentioning the other more than once, does that mean we need to discard the one he said only once?

Example
Water = 1
Spirit = 4

Okay, lets discard the water, because he only said it one time.

If that's how people wanna do it, they can. But they are not going to like the end result.

Acts2:38 said:

Just like he told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Click to expand...

Which word in Acts 2:38 is related to salvation?
The answer is found below.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,


It is the word "repent" that is the most important.

Conversion comes from repentance, instead of from the water.
The word baptism, or the word water, is not found in the verse above.

If you were correct all babies should be water baptized before they leave the hospital, to make sure they get into heaven...

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Based on the verse above, either you are confused or John the Baptist was confused.
.

BABerean2 said:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Based on the verse above, either you are confused or John the Baptist was confused.
.

Click to expand...

Seems like you're the one confused here. You're not understanding what John was actually saying. No one can literally be baptized with fire and live.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Seville90210 said:

Seems like you're the one confused here. You're not understanding what John was actually saying. No one can literally be baptized with fire and live.

Click to expand...

The scripture found below proves otherwise.

Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

Copperhead said:

It would be ok if it was also confirmed by the OT. That is the Torah requirement of the testimony of two witnesses before a matter can be established. And the Bereans of Acts 17 showed us how this requirement is applied. Any position has to have equal support in both OT and NT or it doesn't meet the standard of evidence.

Click to expand...

Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

iamlamad said:

1. That the rapture is found in Rev. 4:1
ANY good bible student know that is JOHN caught up to heaven, around 95 AD.

Click to expand...

Yes, he was caught up in 95AD, but as Yeshua stated, to write down what would be "after these things". He was here writing down the things which had been and what were. It was only at the point when he would write down those things that are "after these things" that he was caught up to get a arena view of upcoming events.

John was told to write down the things that had been, what currently was, and what would come "after these things". What was is in Chapter 1. What is, the church age, is in chapters 2-3. The "after these things" of Revelation 4:1 refers to the subject that preceded it, the churches, following principled grammatical sentence structure. And since the "after these things" grammatically refers to the previous subject, it must be after the churches.

And of course, ANY good bible student also knows that the Lord uses some very creative writing techniques in scripture. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand these little grammatical examples in scripture, but it does require one to stay abreast of them and try to remember their grade school teaching on writing.

Copperhead said:

Yes, he was caught up in 95AD, but as Yeshua stated, to write down what would be "after these things". He was here writing down the things which had been and what were. It was only at the point when he would write down those things that are "after these things" that he was caught up to get a arena view of upcoming events.

John was told to write down the things that had been, what currently was, and what would come "after these things". What was is in Chapter 1. What is, the church age, is in chapters 2-3. The "after these things" of Revelation 4:1 refers to the subject that preceded it, the churches, following principled grammatical sentence structure. And since the "after these things" grammatically refers to the previous subject, it must be after the churches.

And of course, ANY good bible student also knows that the Lord uses some very creative writing techniques in scripture. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand these little grammatical examples in scripture, but it does require one to stay abreast of them and try to remember their grade school teaching on writing.

Click to expand...

Completely false reasoning. Perhaps the "preconceived glassed syndrome" strikes again.

Copperhead, can we be completely honest here?
Around 95 AD Jesus showed Himself to John and in the course of events dictated to John some messages to 7 churches. That is found in chapters 2 & 3. AT THE VERY SAME TIME - no gap between, God chose to show John, still in 95 AD a vision, so God called John up to heaven. Note carefully it was after NOTHING but God had showed John in chapter 1 and then after the dictation: 95 AD. Note carefully, Rev. 4:1 is still 95 AD.

Your theory that "after this" or "after these things" means "after the church age" fails any kind of exegesis. John used these words 5 more times in the book, and they never mean "after the church age." You uses them as a transition phrase when God changed the subjects.

It is STILL the church age (but in 32 AD) when Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. Seal 1 - the church sent out - STILL the church age.
Seals 2-4 - the devil's attempts to stop the church - STILL the church age.
Seal 5 - the martyrs of the church age: STILL the church age. But here we stop: They were told they must wait for the very last martyr before judgment would begin.

And that, my friend, is where the church has been all this time. We are STILL waiting on that last martyr.

iamlamad said:

Completely false reasoning. Perhaps the "preconceived glassed syndrome" strikes again.

Click to expand...

You just love to take those digs at others you don't agree with. I have your number. Isn't going to work.

BABerean2 said:

Which word in Acts 2:38 is related to salvation?
The answer is found below.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,


It is the word "repent" that is the most important.

Conversion comes from repentance, instead of from the water.
The word baptism, or the word water, is not found in the verse above.

Click to expand...

#1 - The word relating to salvation in Acts 2:38 is not just one word, but two.

Note:
*Repent....and
*be baptized

Both vitally important to salvation. You cannot refute Acts 2:38 which is why you have been steering clear of it as much as possible (Just my assumption/observation though)

#2 - Repent in Acts 3:19 was also followed up by another word sir. That word was "AND be converted. How is one converted? See Acts 8:36-39.

#3 - Since repent had an addition to it "AND" joining the word converted, I would hardly say it was the MOST important. The word "AND" joins the two words. Just like Mark 16:16 "Believe AND be baptized...you will be saved", The word Believe was not any more important than the word be baptized. They are BOTH required to be saved. Thus, repenting AND being baptized, are required (repent and be converted).

#4 - I would agree, that repentance would come before being baptized. Just as belief comes before repentance and confession. However, they are ALL needed for salvation. Just one of these by themselves is not enough, you need them all.

So, repent and be converted... what is converted? See Acts 2:38, 41, and 47

BABerean2 said:

If you were correct all babies should be water baptized before they leave the hospital, to make sure they get into heaven...

Click to expand...

No. Babies are not accountable for their actions. They are not held responsible. They have no need for baptism.

Why?

How do you teach a baby about Christ? The gospel? God?

You can't. They cannot be held accountable. They are beyond reasoning skills.
Maybe this will help you:
Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.

BABerean2 said:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Based on the verse above, either you are confused or John the Baptist was confused.

Click to expand...

I repeat myself again:
They received power, they received miraculous gifts. It showed the Jews in Acts 11, Gentiles are a chosen people too.

Peter then told them in Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just like he told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Just like Peter AGAIN told us in 1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Every time here, Peter is talking about water. So, do you think maybe you misunderstood what exactly he was talking about in Acts 11:15-16? Peter is referring to Acts 1, when he "remembered what the Lord said", then you see that it happened in Acts 2:1-4.

Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-45 are the ONLY TWO times you see the Holy Ghost act this way. You will NOT find another like those. And, Cornelius STILL needed water, "can any man forbid them water?"" and he commanded them be baptized"

Acts2:38 said:

#1 - The word relating to salvation in Acts 2:38 is not just one word, but two.

Note:
*Repent....and
*be baptized

Both vitally important to salvation. You cannot refute Acts 2:38 which is why you have been steering clear of it as much as possible (Just my assumption/observation though)

#2 - Repent in Acts 3:19 was also followed up by another word sir. That word was "AND be converted. How is one converted? See Acts 8:36-39.

#3 - Since repent had an addition to it "AND" joining the word converted, I would hardly say it was the MOST important. The word "AND" joins the two words. Just like Mark 16:16 "Believe AND be baptized...you will be saved", The word Believe was not any more important than the word be baptized. They are BOTH required to be saved. Thus, repenting AND being baptized, are required (repent and be converted).

#4 - I would agree, that repentance would come before being baptized. Just as belief comes before repentance and confession. However, they are ALL needed for salvation. Just one of these by themselves is not enough, you need them all.

So, repent and be converted... what is converted? See Acts 2:38, 41, and 47



No. Babies are not accountable for their actions. They are not held responsible. They have no need for baptism.

Why?

How do you teach a baby about Christ? The gospel? God?

You can't. They cannot be held accountable. They are beyond reasoning skills.
Maybe this will help you:
Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.



I repeat myself again:
They received power, they received miraculous gifts. It showed the Jews in Acts 11, Gentiles are a chosen people too.

Peter then told them in Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just like he told the Jews in Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Just like Peter AGAIN told us in 1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Every time here, Peter is talking about water. So, do you think maybe you misunderstood what exactly he was talking about in Acts 11:15-16? Peter is referring to Acts 1, when he "remembered what the Lord said", then you see that it happened in Acts 2:1-4.

Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-45 are the ONLY TWO times you see the Holy Ghost act this way. You will NOT find another like those. And, Cornelius STILL needed water, "can any man forbid them water?"" and he commanded them be baptized"

Click to expand...

Believers also commemorate the Lord's Supper.
Does that mean it is necessary for salvation?

Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

If Cornelius had been killed by a heart attack before he could be water baptized would it have effected his salvation?

Was the eunuch saved by his faith, which came first, or by his water baptism?

Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

The answer is found below?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


When did the repentance come in the passage below?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(They were circumcised in the heart when they realized they had murdered their Messiah.)


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


How about the thief on the cross, was he water baptized?

Are you saying a person is saved by faith, plus water baptism?

Are you a member of the denomination known as "The Church of Christ", which originated with Campbell?
.

BABerean2 said:

The scripture found below proves otherwise.

Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

Click to expand...

All the scriptures you posted are completely irrelevant, having nothing to do with Luke 3:16 whatsoever nor is it about Jesus baptizing anyone with the holy spirit and with fire.


Question:

Daniel 3 is not about Jesus baptizing anyone in fire. Where in the bible does it teaches Nebuchadnezzar is actually Jesus?

BABerean2 said:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Click to expand...

If you're trying to tell everyone 2 Thessalonian 1:7-8 is the same as Luke 3:16 in which Jesus baptizes people with fire, explain this to us all.

Question:

Why would Jesus baptize those with the holy spirit He plans to take vengeance upon, not knowing God nor obey the gospel as shown in 2Th 1:8?

BABerean2 said:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Click to expand...

Same thing here.

If you're trying to tell everyone 2 Peter 3:10 is the same as Luke 3:16 in which Jesus baptizes people with fire, explain this to us all.

Question:

Why would Jesus baptize those with the holy spirit He plans to destroy?


Seems like the scriptures you posted further proves one thing, you don't understand Luke 3:16 well enough to lecture others and is just faking your way through all this.

Seville90210 said:

All the scriptures you posted are completely irrelevant, having nothing to do with Luke 3:16 whatsoever nor is it about Jesus baptizing anyone with the holy spirit and with fire.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

Question:

Daniel 3 is not about Jesus baptizing anyone in fire. Where in the bible does it teaches Nebuchadnezzar is actually Jesus?





If you're trying to tell everyone 2 Thessalonian 1:7-8 is the same as Luke 3:16 in which Jesus baptizes people with fire, explain this to us all.

Question:

Why would Jesus baptize those with the holy spirit He plans to take vengeance upon, not knowing God nor obey the gospel as shown in 2Th 1:8?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

Same thing here.

If you're trying to tell everyone 2 Peter 3:10 is the same as Luke 3:16 in which Jesus baptizes people with fire, explain this to us all.

Question:

Why would Jesus baptize those with the holy spirit He plans to destroy?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

Seems like the scriptures you posted further proves one thing, you don't understand Luke 3:16 well enough to lecture others and is just faking your way through all this.

Click to expand...

You are ignoring the fact that the three Hebrew men were not destroyed by the fire, even though they were immersed in the fire, because they belonged to God.
Who was the fourth man in the fire with them?

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


Do you deny that Christ returns "in flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

Do you deny that this world is going to burn on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", based on 2 Peter 3:10-13?


.

BABerean2 said:

Believers also commemorate the Lord's Supper.
Does that mean it is necessary for salvation?

Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Click to expand...

Yes, actually. We are commanded to take it every first Sunday of the week. I assume you dont do that?

It is to "do this in remembrance". John 14:15; John 15:14. Why would you not want to obey scripture?

BABerean2 said:

If Cornelius had been killed by a heart attack before he could be water baptized would it have effected his salvation?

Click to expand...

Denominations play the "what if" game all the time. Do you realize how silly that is?
Numbers 14:18 and 2 Peter 3:9 should suffice to say that the Lord will not allow someone to have a heart attack 3 seconds before they get baptized into water.

Your analogy is so silly, I can use it against you too.

What if Cornelius died before he could repent?

What if Cornelius died before Peter got to him?

Don't play the "what if" game, you will lose every time.

BABerean2 said:

Was the eunuch saved by his faith, which came first, or by his water baptism?

Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Click to expand...

No. He was saved when he did ALL of the mentioned.

He heard the word
believed it
confessed it
obviously he understood repentance from sin
and he was baptized into water.

So, all those is what I see in Acts 8 there. He did all that, and then was in a saved state. When people are being baptized, we ask them if they believe. It's how one confesses sir Matthew 10:32-33. How else will you confess unless you say it?

Then He got baptized. Romans 6:3-4

BABerean2 said:

The answer is found below?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Click to expand...

Sir, this is a past tense verse usage. PAST TENSE.

These people were already saved, they already were baptized and saved. When you are baptized, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, see Acts 2:38 for explanation.

BABerean2 said:

When did the repentance come in the passage below?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

Just some provoking thought for you:
They asked "men and brethren what shall we do"

1- why did Peter have to say repent if they already repented? Silly right? They asked what they should do, and Peter told them.

2- They asked how to be saved really. Peter responded, "repent and be baptized" and once you do, you get "remission of sins and the Holy Ghost".

In verse 41, they gladly received Peters confession of Christ, and they obeyed it by being baptized. They were added unto them.

Once you are baptized, your added. What are you added to once your baptized?
The church/body/kingdom See verse 47.

BABerean2 said:

How about the thief on the cross, was he water baptized?

Click to expand...

I knew this would come up. It's one of those overused excuses, and a poor one at that.

Jesus didnt die on the cross yet, and therefore the New Covenant had not begun yet.

And if Jesus didnt die yet, and the new covenant didnt begin yet, then they must still have been under the OT covenant right?

Do you find any other example than this when people are being saved in the NT? I dont. I do see ALL KINDS of people being baptized though.

1. Jesus' Baptism Matthew 3:13-17
2. Day of Pentecost Acts 2:22 and 36-47
3. Samaria Acts 8:4-13
4. Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8:26-39
5. Paul(Saul) Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16
6. Cornelius Acts 101-48 and 11:1-18
7. Lydia Acts 16:13-15
8. Many Corinthians Acts 18:8
9. Philippian Jailer Acts 16:25-33

BABerean2 said:

Are you saying a person is saved by faith, plus water baptism?

Click to expand...

Yes. Its in scripture. The Ethiopian proved it. The Samaritans proved it. Paul and Peter proved it. Jesus proved it. What more proof do you need?

These are all part of salvation
Hearing the word
Believing
repenting
confessing
being baptized
remaining faithful

Its all in scripture. Its all part of salvation.

BABerean2 said:

Are you a member of the denomination known as "The Church of Christ", which originated with Campbell?

Click to expand...

Silly. Yes I am part of members of church of Christ.No sir it did not originate from Campbell.

You need to study your history a bit more. You can find churches of Christ LONG before Campbell came into the picture. He was merely just a popular, well known evangelist of the time. But if you do your studies, you can see that there have been churches of Christ LONG before him.

The name church of Christ is chosen because there is no authority to call yourself by another name like Baptist, methodist or hope church etc.

No authority whatsoever to do that.

Also, its Christs church sir. Matthew 16:18-19

Why are you going to call yourself any other name? Its his.

You would benefit from this:

Acts2:38 said:

Yes, actually. We are commanded to take it every first Sunday of the week. I assume you dont do that?

Click to expand...

I will get past the "first Sunday of the week" thing, that was obviously a mistake on your part.

But that it is commanded the first Sunday of any or every month, quarter, whatever is not scripture. It is the direction of one's particular fellowship. Actually, if one were to do a detailed study of this, the believers in the NT did this observance every time they met. For some, that would be daily. The directive from Yeshua was to do it as an observance that would proclaim His death for the redemption of mankind and the New Covenant until He comes again. No specific days, weeks, months, etc were commanded.

If one really wanted to be picky about this, then they should actually be promoting the idea that the observance be every time 2 or more believers are assembled. After all, Yeshua said that whenever two or more are assembled in His name, He is there with them. What better way to honor the Messiah than do the observance each time two or more are assembled in His name?

Acts2:38 said:

Jesus didnt die on the cross yet, and therefore the New Covenant had not begun yet.

And if Jesus didnt die yet, and the new covenant didnt begin yet, then they must still have been under the OT covenant right?

Click to expand...

Wrong.

Based on the text below from John chapter 19, Christ died before the thief.
(See Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13.)

Joh_19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh_19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:


Was the thief a part of the Church of Christ, if he was not water baptized?

.

Copperhead said:

I will get past the "first Sunday of the week" thing, that was obviously a mistake on your part.

But that it is commanded the first Sunday of any or every month, quarter, whatever is not scripture. It is the direction of one's particular fellowship. Actually, if one were to do a detailed study of this, the believers in the NT did this observance every time they met. For some, that would be daily. The directive from Yeshua was to do it as an observance that would proclaim His death for the redemption of mankind and the New Covenant until He comes again. No specific days, weeks, months, etc were commanded.

If one really wanted to be picky about this, then they should actually be promoting the idea that the observance be every time 2 or more believers are assembled. After all, Yeshua said that whenever two or more are assembled in His name, He is there with them. What better way to honor the Messiah than do the observance each time two or more are assembled in His name?

Click to expand...

Seeing as that you really wanted to attempt to refute this, you brought no evidence, just opinion.

Though I could bring up evidence in my own way, many people already did the foot work, and it really is not the title threads point to talk about. I was asked a question, I answered.

Even the other person I am talking with, we are both getting off topic of the OP. Some how we started focusing on baptism and not just "saints" in general, if they can be categorized as different groups.

So, here is the "foot work" someone else did. They not only have scriptural references (to which you will most likely ignore-I suppose Im being a pessimists about this forgive me), but they also have other authors and such cited on this subject.

Read it or not, here you go:
The Weekly Observance of the Lord's Supper

BABerean2 said:

Wrong.

Based on the text below from John chapter 19, Christ died before the thief.
(See Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13.)

Joh_19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh_19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs

Click to expand...

No, your wrong. Please follow your own question trail properly. Christ was alive when He was talking with the thief right?

Or was Christ a spirit already when He promised the Thief?

Also, can Christs promise to the thief be broken if Christ was to die first AFTER the promise was made?

Please try to follow logic sir. A dead person cannot speak with a living person (or vise versa) So when Christ made that promise to the thief, Christ was not dead yet, and therefore they were under the OT covenant still.

Luke 23
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So, please try to tell me again how the NT covenant was established before Christs death, and that the thief had to be baptized. I really am interested to know this.

BABerean2 said:

Was the thief a part of the Church of Christ, if he was not water baptized?

Click to expand...

You statement is moot. The church was not established till Acts 2, a little while after Christs death on the cross. There was no church then.