Love God...

Hammster

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I still stand on my view that this is a solid "False". We are flesh and even though we love God... should never be given the freedom to "do whatever you want".
Well, I want to be obedient. Hopefully I have been given the freedom to do that.
 
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Hammster

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Can you expand on this? I mean really, "no they aren't" without some support is kinda short, don't you think?
I have already. But, okay.

The reason we love is because God loves us. His love is the cause of our love. So love causes things to happen. In this instance, our lack of love for God results in our sinning because you can’t love God and sin at the same time. However, when we are loving God, we see that our sin causes grief, and we repent. So, love for God results in repentance.
 
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JacksBratt

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Well, I want to be obedient. Hopefully I have been given the freedom to do that.
You have the freedom to do that. Christ has set us free from sin...

I just wouldn't go telling Christians to "Love God and Do whatever you want".

I would say.. Love God and try, in every action, to be pleasing to Him and shine a light for others to see".
 
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JacksBratt

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I have already. But, okay.

The reason we love is because God loves us. His love is the cause of our love. So love causes things to happen. In this instance, our lack of love for God results in our sinning because you can’t love God and sin at the same time. However, when we are loving God, we see that our sin causes grief, and we repent. So, love for God results in repentance.
OK, thanks...

But it is not our "lack of Love for God" that results in sinning...

It is our flesh. Our fallen nature. We don't stop loving God when we sin. We fail, yes. We disrespect, yes. We disappoint, also yes....

But we never stop loving....
 
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Hammster

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You have the freedom to do that. Christ has set us free from sin...

I just wouldn't go telling Christians to "Love God and Do whatever you want".

I would say.. Love God and try, in every action, to be pleasing to Him and shine a light for others to see".
Same thing.
 
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Hammster

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OK, thanks...

But it is not our "lack of Love for God" that results in sinning...

It is our flesh. Our fallen nature. We don't stop loving God when we sin. We fail, yes. We disrespect, yes. We disappoint, also yes....

But we never stop loving....
When we sin, it’s because of indifference to what God wants. It’s certainly not out of love. Flesh? Yes. But it’s indifference.
 
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JacksBratt

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When we sin, it’s because of indifference to what God wants. It’s certainly not out of love. Flesh? Yes. But it’s indifference.
Obviously you believe that when you sin, you do not love God.

I, on the other hand, believe that I never stop loving God... I just make choices, sometimes, that are disobedient to Him.

So, I'll stop arguing when neither of us are going to change our opinion.

If you like saying "Love God and do whatever you want"... that's your choice... I disagree with that philosophy.
 
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aiki

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The primary aspect of God's glory is His love

I don't think this is borne out in Scripture. Holiness appears to be God's "primary aspect." The Bible speaks of God's holy hill, His holy tabernacle/temple, His holy angels, His holy throne, His holy word, His holy prophets, and so on. Scripture never describes these things in terms of God's love. God speaks in holiness (Psalms 60:6; Psalm 108:7); He swears by His holiness (Amos 4:2; Psalm 89:35); He is holy (or righteous) in all His works (Psalms 145:17). When Moses met with God, he was told to remove his sandals because he stood on holy ground, not loving ground. The cherubim around God's throne proclaim eternally, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty" (Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3) not "Love, love, love." In light of the Bible's emphasis on God's holiness, it doesn't appear to me that love is His pre-eminent quality.

that glory is expressed/radiated in love for his creation-for us-most fully demonstrated by His own willingness to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh on the cross at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to prove that love-in spite of our sin and even hatred of Him.

None of the redemptive work of Calvary that God accomplished through Christ on our behalf would have been necessary if God were not a perfectly holy God. That Jesus did what he did in atoning for our sin speaks, not only or primarily of God's love, but of the utterly inflexible demands of God's holy justice.

Do you think that when Jesus told us to love our neighbor as ourselves that He wanted us to hate and deny our neighbor?

No, I think the command acknowledges how naturally we love ourselves, which Paul noted in his letter to the Ephesian believers (Ephesians 5:29). The command is saying, essentially, "You love yourselves very well and very naturally and so, in the same way, love others."

Self-hatred is an evil that leads to harm of self and neighbor, spousal abuse, substance abuse, all kinds of ugly excesses.

Self-hatred is just Self-love in disguise. I talked once with a teenager who was suicidal because he was, he thought, unattractive, possessed of a dull personality, and not particularly intelligent - just generally drab and unappealing to others. And so, he had convinced himself that his future prospects for a mate and positive notoriety within his social sphere were zero. Why, then, should he continue to live? He hated who he was and so he should simply die. I suggested to him that he was suffering from the always and inevitably destructive consequence of pride. The young man laughed and said, "Proud? I'm not proud of myself! I hate myself!" To which I responded that if he truly hated himself, why did he care at all about his looks, or intelligence, or personality? Where, I asked him, was the upset over his personal attributes (or lack thereof) coming from? What part of him hated who he was and pined to be different? What part of him would rather die than be content with who he was? He hadn't thought about it, he admitted. He hated himself, I pointed out, because he loved himself. And his Self-love was so great, so exaggerated, that, ironically, death was preferable to enduring the wounds to his pride that his perceived lack of personal assets incurred. As we talked, he realized that his self-loathing, his hatred of himself, was indeed just a perverse expression of Self-love, of pride, of ego, that refused to be satisfied with mediocre looks, intelligence and personality.

This is not what Jesus meant by hating self. He meant to deny ourselves, to put our lives and needs beneath that of others.

I've never said that hating one's self involved spousal or substance abuse, or "ugly excesses." Not loving one's self does not equate to destructive self-hatred. Jesus described it as "denying one's self," sacrificing one's desires, goals and rights for Christ's sake and the sake of others. Living this way is particularly antagonistic to the idea of "doing what I want," but it does not entail drug use or beating one's spouse.

What fallen man does naturally is to love himself inordinately-it's to not truly love ourselves as we are, in recognition of our limitations, of our innate inferiority to God as created beings.

Actually, what I think should replace self-esteem and self-love is self-acceptance. God made us as we are physically and with the personality type and mental faculties we possess and so we ought to accept how He has made us and be content that He has done right and well in doing so.

So the only source of evil is to twist something good into something less good-out of alignment with God's will IOW.

It seems to me that what causes a thing to be twisted out of shape is the "source of evil," not the thing that is twisted. The former produces the latter and thus is its source. In any case, evil is, as Christian philosophers have said, the absence of good. It is what causes "twisting" to occur.

Pride has been classically referred to as "inordinate self-love", just as gluttony is an inordinate desire for food, or lust is an inordinate attraction to sex- desires which in themselves are good and serve their natural purpose as long as they aren't abused-becoming obsessions/idolatry.

And what is "inordinate," exactly? I don't see Scripture talking of pride in this way, making some pride okay so long as it isn't "inordinate." Scripture reminds us that we have nothing of which to boast, that all we have is given to us by God (1 Corinthians 4:7). It warns us, further, to avoid pride entirely - not just inordinate pride - and to adopt an attitude of humility instead. (James 4:7, 10; 1 Peter 5:5-6)
 
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Grip Docility

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For myself it wasn't a deflection so much as Christianity 101 to be honest. The primary aspect of God's glory is His love-and that glory is expressed/radiated in love for his creation-for us-most fully demonstrated by His own willingness to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh on the cross at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to prove that love-in spite of our sin and even hatred of Him.

Do you think that when Jesus told us to love our neighbor as ourselves that He wanted us to hate and deny our neighbor? Self-hatred is an evil that leads to harm of self and neighbor, spousal abuse, substance abuse, all kinds of ugly excesses. This is not what Jesus meant by hating self. He meant to deny ourselves, to put our lives and needs beneath that of others.

What fallen man does naturally is to love himself inordinately-it's to not truly love ourselves as we are, in recognition of our limitations, of our innate inferiority to God as created beings. Everything in creation is necessarily good-by virtue of its having been created by God. So the only source of evil is to twist something good into something less good-out of alignment with God's will IOW. Pride has been classically referred to as "inordinate self-love", just as gluttony is an inordinate desire for food, or lust is an inordinate attraction to sex- desires which in themselves are good and serve their natural purpose as long as they aren't abused-becoming obsessions/idolatry. But that abuse- of the good things God has given us -is a constant way of life for fallen man, and it all starts with the abuse of self love, i.e. "pride", which seeks to exalt man above even God Himself-bypassing His authority over our morality as we take on that authority for ourselves. It's to idolize the self.

I’m jumping in on this one. Count me in. Agree.
 
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fhansen

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I don't think this is borne out in Scripture. Holiness appears to be God's "primary aspect." The Bible speaks of God's holy hill, His holy tabernacle/temple, His holy angels, His holy throne, His holy word, His holy prophets, and so on. Scripture never describes these things in terms of God's love. God speaks in holiness (Psalms 60:6; Psalm 108:7); He swears by His holiness (Amos 4:2; Psalm 89:35); He is holy (or righteous) in all His works (Psalms 145:17). When Moses met with God, he was told to remove his sandals because he stood on holy ground, not loving ground. The cherubim around God's throne proclaim eternally, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty" (Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3) not "Love, love, love." In light of the Bible's emphasis on God's holiness, it doesn't appear to me that love is His pre-eminent quality.
Love is the only quality that Scripture appears to identify directly with His essence: “God is love”. And while God is certainly holy, what is holiness to begin with? We define it in terms of purity and perfection and being set apart, which God certainly is even if not all those concepts are readily comprehensible. How do we define and understand perfection or even purity? And are those the real reasons we'd be drawn to God anyway, to worship Him in spirit and truth, to recognize and value His beauty, to glorify Him? We love Him because He first loved us. And I’d submit that holiness is a part of and encompassed within love, and so God’s love is what His holiness consists of anyway.
None of the redemptive work of Calvary that God accomplished through Christ on our behalf would have been necessary if God were not a perfectly holy God. That Jesus did what he did in atoning for our sin speaks, not only or primarily of God's love, but of the utterly inflexible demands of God's holy justice.
It speaks primarily of God’s love-absolutely. Atonement theories and opinions and speculations vary (with some placing God’s love as the foci incidentally) but either way according to Jesus’ words: “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.” That was God, Himself, hanging on the cross, suffering an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh at the hands of His own creation if that’s what it takes to prove a love for man that has no bounds, in spite of our sin. In any case love is the very heart and apex of the Christian faith and the more we know God the more we love Him –and love Him because of His love. Glorification is a matter of the heart, not of rote obedience-just as even the rocks and stones would praise Jesus- if they were capable, if they knew what we should know-and can come to know.
No, I think the command acknowledges how naturally we love ourselves, which Paul noted in his letter to the Ephesian believers (Ephesians 5:29). The command is saying, essentially, "You love yourselves very well and very naturally and so, in the same way, love others."

Self-hatred is just Self-love in disguise. I talked once with a teenager who was suicidal because he was, he thought, unattractive, possessed of a dull personality, and not particularly intelligent - just generally drab and unappealing to others. And so, he had convinced himself that his future prospects for a mate and positive notoriety within his social sphere were zero. Why, then, should he continue to live? He hated who he was and so he should simply die. I suggested to him that he was suffering from the always and inevitably destructive consequence of pride. The young man laughed and said, "Proud? I'm not proud of myself! I hate myself!" To which I responded that if he truly hated himself, why did he care at all about his looks, or intelligence, or personality? Where, I asked him, was the upset over his personal attributes (or lack thereof) coming from? What part of him hated who he was and pined to be different? What part of him would rather die than be content with who he was? He hadn't thought about it, he admitted. He hated himself, I pointed out, because he loved himself. And his Self-love was so great, so exaggerated, that, ironically, death was preferable to enduring the wounds to his pride that his perceived lack of personal assets incurred. As we talked, he realized that his self-loathing, his hatred of himself, was indeed just a perverse expression of Self-love, of pride, of ego, that refused to be satisfied with mediocre looks, intelligence and personality.
Ok? But you made my point. Pride is exaggerated self-love, while self-hatred is not self-love by any means. And your observations were quite astute IMO. Pride and self-hatred or shame are just the flip side of the same coin; shame immediately followed Adam’s act of pride in fact, of his disobedience of God. Pride sets exaggerated standards. When we think we live up to them we feel superior, and this is one of the three-fold aspects of concupiscence “the pride of life” in this case as per 1 John 2. When we fail to live up to pride’s standards we feel shame, inferior. Either way we’re not on target; we’re still suffering at that point from our distance from God, from our fallen condition IOW where man’s will reigns, no longer subjugated to his Creator. So Aquinas, who recognized pride as “inordinate self-love” also described it thusly: “excessive desire for one's own excellence which rejects subjection to God”
I've never said that hating one's self involved spousal or substance abuse, or "ugly excesses." Not loving one's self does not equate to destructive self-hatred. Jesus described it as "denying one's self," sacrificing one's desires, goals and rights for Christ's sake and the sake of others. Living this way is particularly antagonistic to the idea of "doing what I want," but it does not entail drug use or beating one's spouse.
Yes, which was my point about Jesus’ words. But the self-hatred you described above appeared to me to speak otherwise.
Actually, what I think should replace self-esteem and self-love is self-acceptance. God made us as we are physically and with the personality type and mental faculties we possess and so we ought to accept how He has made us and be content that He has done right and well in doing so.
Some of this is just a matter of word-usage/semantics. Yes, self-acceptance is good; self-aggrandizement is not. But to dislike the self in any case is wrong-it’s to hate a part of God’s good creation-and actually reflects fallen man’s loss of innocence, and not humility as some may think.
It seems to me that what causes a thing to be twisted out of shape is the "source of evil," not the thing that is twisted. The former produces the latter and thus is its source. In any case, evil is, as Christian philosophers have said, the absence of good. It is what causes "twisting" to occur.
Ok, a Christian philosopher named Augustine made this statement, “The only possible source of evil is good”. If that sounds counter-intuitive at first we must recognize that nothing in God’s creation is evil; it’s literally all good. So evil has no reality of its own; it “exists” only in relation to good, just as darkness exists only in relation to light. When we detract from good in any way, by opting for a lesser good over a greater one, we sin. The source for this is a matter of the will rather than from anything innately evil. And the free will that makes that evil possible is a good, itself, as a gift of God given to certain rational created beings. But as that puts the will in charge, so to speak, evil originates from there, from the abuse of our freedom IOW, whether that of men or of angels.

Aquinas, again, was the philosopher who worked out much of this thinking, in the 13th century, which forms part of the basis for Catholic moral teaching. Every evil act is committed in the desire for some perceived good. Greed/theft can have their origins in desire for security which is related to self-love, but inordinately so. Lust has its origin in the natural appetite for pleasure, for love/unity with another person, and for procreation. A person may murder in order to obtain another’s possessions or in an attempt to subvert and gain their position in politics or a job or a love interest. Adam wanted to be like God, not an evil desire in itself. Evil isn’t committed for the sheer sake of evil. Even in the case of torture, some sense of power and superiority over another person is obtained, which the perpetrator experiences as good at the time, power and authority otherwise having their place in the normal scheme of things while “power trips”, the abuse of power, are inordinate, pride-based.
And what is "inordinate," exactly? I don't see Scripture talking of pride in this way, making some pride okay so long as it isn't "inordinate."
Pride is never good-I didn’t and wouldn’t say otherwise. Anything inordinate is evil, because it misses the mark in terms of God’s will. Anything less than the perfect good is less than it should be. Evil can be more or less evil by degree but even a white lie is an anomaly in creation.
 
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aiki

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Love is the only quality that Scripture appears to identify directly with His essence: “God is love”.

The statement "God is love" appears only twice in all of the Bible and both times in the same letter (and chapter) from the apostle John. The Bible describes God as holy more than a dozen times, however (Joshua 24:19; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Samuel 6:20; Psalms 89:18; Psalms 99:5; Psalms 99:9; Isaiah 5:16; Isaiah 6:3, etc.) And, as I pointed out, the Bible never refers to things associated with God in terms of His love but in terms of His holiness. We read in the Bible of God's holy hill, His holy mount, His holy arm, His holy people, His holy name, and temple, and angels and throne, etc. Why, then, you would think that God's "essence" is defined in Scripture as love is a mystery to me.

And while God is certainly holy, what is holiness to begin with? We define it in terms of purity and perfection and being set apart, which God certainly is even if not all those concepts are readily comprehensible.

Scripture speaks of God's holiness primarily in two ways: His divine majesty, glory and other-ness and His ethical/moral perfection.

How do we define and understand perfection or even purity?

Perfection can be a difficult concept to fully quantify or describe but purity is, I think, explained to us pretty well by the apostle John:

1 John 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


And are those the real reasons we'd be drawn to God anyway, to worship Him in spirit and truth, to recognize and value His beauty, to glorify Him?

Well, what things about God we might be inclined to extol are quite irrelevant, I think, to God being worthy of our praise and worship.

We love Him because He first loved us. And I’d submit that holiness is a part of and encompassed within love, and so God’s love is what His holiness consists of anyway.

There is, of course, overlap among God's attributes but I think you've got the order of things backwards here. Certainly, Scripture does not lend itself to what you've put forward here. Love is, in fact, constrained, confined and defined by God's holiness. We never read in Scripture of God's holiness defined in terms of His love. And it seems evident to me that love that is not holy is not love - or, at least, not godly love.

In any case love is the very heart and apex of the Christian faith and the more we know God the more we love Him –and love Him because of His love.

I think this is a very modern - and unbiblical - understanding of the Christian faith. The heart of the Christian faith is Christ - God - not merely His love. And as I've shown, the Bible emphasizes God's holiness in a way it never does His love. To be a Christian is to glorify the most holy and high God; that is the heart of the faith. Love is a part of this, of course, but it certainly isn't the "apex" of what it means to be a Christian.

John 11:4
John 12:28
1 Corinthians 10:31
Matthew 5:16
1 Corinthians 6:20
Revelation 15:4


But you made my point. Pride is exaggerated self-love, while self-hatred is not self-love by any means.

Then you didn't understand the point of my story which was to illustrate how self-hatred is self-love in disguise.

When we fail to live up to pride’s standards we feel shame, inferior.

It sounds here like you think Pride is some entity external to the individual, but I don't think there is a standard of pride that isn't derived from the individual. Whatever pride presses upon a man, it is his pride that is doing so; that pride is a manifestation of himself. Failing to live up to one's "pride standard," then, is simply to fail to be all one wishes one was - prettier, handsomer, stronger, thinner, smarter, etc.

Some of this is just a matter of word-usage/semantics.

No, I don't think so. Self-acceptance differs from self-esteem in a very important way: It is God-centered, not self-centered. Self-acceptance focuses upon God, upon His not making mistakes, upon His will, upon His right to create in any way He wishes. Self -esteem prioritizes a man feeling pride in himself, it focuses upon his attributes, his self-perception, his finding something lovable and "special" about himself.

But to dislike the self in any case is wrong-it’s to hate a part of God’s good creation-and actually reflects fallen man’s loss of innocence, and not humility as some may think.

Well, this is, again, a modern way of thinking but it isn't a biblical way of thinking:

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matthew 15:19
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Romans 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Ok, a Christian philosopher named Augustine made this statement, “The only possible source of evil is good”. If that sounds counter-intuitive at first we must recognize that nothing in God’s creation is evil; it’s literally all good.

I think you're guilty of equivocation of terms here. "Good" in what sense? Not moral, surely. Not all things in God's Creation are morally good - whatever Augustine might have thought.

When we detract from good in any way, by opting for a lesser good over a greater one, we sin.

I think it is a mistake to think of genocide, or serial killing, or rape, or child abuse as merely "lesser goods." It seems to me that about these things it is evident that there is no good whatever.

Every evil act is committed in the desire for some perceived good.

??? "Perceived" is important. What is "perceived" is not necessarily what actually is. In any case, there are times when people do evil knowing it is evil and delighting in this fact. Desiring some perceived good has nothing to do with their wicked behaviour. Ravi Zacharias has quoted a prison guard who worked in a Siberian gulag who reveled in the opportunity to enact evil upon his charges, blasphemously thanking God (in whom the guard claimed he did not believe) for the chance to indulge his worst impulses.

Even in the case of torture, some sense of power and superiority over another person is obtained, which the perpetrator experiences as good at the time,

Here, again, is this equivocation of the term "good." No one torturing another person has the idea that what they are doing is morally/ethically good. Torture might be "good" in the subjective sense that it serves the aims of the torturer to torture, but this is not a moral good, necessarily.

Pride is never good-I didn’t and wouldn’t say otherwise. Anything inordinate is evil, because it misses the mark in terms of God’s will. Anything less than the perfect good is less than it should be. Evil can be more or less evil by degree but even a white lie is an anomaly in creation.

Most of this talks past my point. It isn't just that pride is wrong, but that the Christian is enjoined in Scripture to be humble instead, not merely less prideful, or just not inordinately prideful. Doing so requires dying to one's Self, as Paul teaches over and over again in Scripture:

Galatians 2:20
Galatians 5:24
Galatians 6:14
Colossians 3:3
Romans 6:6-11
Romans 8:13
, etc.
 
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I think if we love God then we will do what He wants and not what we want. But therein lies the paradox, if we truly love Him we will be doing what He wants.

That is if we are being led by the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit leads us to obey God’s commands.

 
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