Catholics emboldened to abolish death penalty

I do not really see this as a positive thing

This is not good.

Michie said:

*You are in the Catholic forum*

New Hampshire became the 21st state to formally end the death penalty, after its legislature overrode the governor's veto.

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Catholics Emboldened to Abolish the Death Penalty

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I don't know. I can understand why people are against it, especially after watching When they see Us. However, with all the history that we have of some of the most monstrous people (Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, the Isis..) who are fully confirmed to be guilty, i just think it's also morally wrong not to bring actual justice.

I just read something in where the Isis beheaded an infant and to me they deserve to be put to death for that. So as a Catholic, i don't know where i stand. Should my religious values also included the likes of monsters?

Cis.jd said:

I don't know. I can understand why people are against it, especially after watching When they see Us. However, with all the history that we have of some of the most monstrous people (Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, the Isis..) who are fully confirmed to be guilty, i just think it's also morally wrong not to bring actual justice.

I just read something in where the Isis beheaded an infant and to me they deserve to be put to death for that. So as a Catholic, i don't know where i stand. Should my religious values also included the likes of monsters?

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St Thomas would have zero problem executing those monsters so you're ok

For a long time I was against the death penalty. Then I realized that being made in the image of God is no guarantee of anything. All it means is humans have potential that no other part of creation has. It doesn't mean that potential is going to become anything. Yes, there are monster out there who have abdicated their right to be called God's family.

The Catholic Encyclopedia itself acknowledges that there was little support for the death penalty, if any, during the early years of the Church. It appears to me that the Church leaders did not change their views of capital punishment until after Constantine made Christianity the unofficial religion of the Roman Empire.

We have two popes and the "new one" tells us to ignore Aquinas and the historical view on death penalty as presented by holy mother church and follow him instead. Nah, I dont think so.
I'll let this Pope of ours hold his opinions and then I'll do the same. Its rubbish and utterly nonsense all of the sudden to call the former churchstanse on this immoral, rubbish !
Cultural arrogance combined with timearrogance is what this is.

Death penalty is an evil, but nonetheless a necessary evil. Pursuing true justice sometimes calls for capital punishment as a last resort.

Pope Benedict just said we have one Pope. And you would also have to content with Pope St. John Paul II on this view.

Cis.jd said:

I don't know. I can understand why people are against it, especially after watching When they see Us. However, with all the history that we have of some of the most monstrous people (Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, the Isis..) who are fully confirmed to be guilty, i just think it's also morally wrong not to bring actual justice.

I just read something in where the Isis beheaded an infant and to me they deserve to be put to death for that. So as a Catholic, i don't know where i stand. Should my religious values also included the likes of monsters?

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I think there are vanishingly rare cases where a dangerous prisoner should be put to death. Over all I'm against it. I also think it was a dangerous mistake by pope Francis to change (try to change) Church teaching that it is allowable. John Paul II got it right.

Davidnic said:

Pope Benedict just said we have one Pope. And you would also have to content with Pope St. John Paul II on this view.

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Apparently he said so. It's a huge difference being told he said so and hearing him saying it. We know from past experience that the Vatican twist the words of his holiness Pope Benedict from time to time.

At least in my home state, Indiana, it appears mathematically cheaper for 30 of incarceration than actually executing someone once you figure in the state's portion of defense costs and appeals. I think most of us would agree that if someone is facing execution we would want them to have excellent legal representation and someone has to pay for that. Here is a link for Indiana data: https://www.in.gov/ipdc/files/Cost of seeking DP in Indiana.pdf

These data take into account costs for an average 11 years on death row and average incarceration until 80 for those receiving/pleading to.

Davidnic said:

Pope Benedict just said we have one Pope. And you would also have to content with Pope St. John Paul II on this view.

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I agree that Pope Francis is the sovereign Pontiff and that the last three Popes have been fairly unified on their views about Capital Punishment with only very slight and nuanced differences among them.
But I would also point out that these three hold views on Capital Punishment that are at odds with the vast majority of Popes as well as Church Doctors and Early Church Fathers

Rhamiel said:

I agree that Pope Francis is the sovereign Pontiff and that the last three Popes have been fairly unified on their views about Capital Punishment with only very slight and nuanced differences among them.
But I would also point out that these three hold views on Capital Punishment that are at odds with the vast majority of Popes as well as Church Doctors and Early Church Fathers

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True. And we can only guess what the past few would be based on what we have available to modern technology. I think it's a mistake to say universally that It can't be allowed. There are countries that do lack the facilities to do some of the things that make death penalty reasons nonexistent.

That's why I like Pope Saint John Paul II view. Very important difference of validation of it being practically non-existent as opposed to non-existent.

Rhamiel said:

I agree that Pope Francis is the sovereign Pontiff and that the last three Popes have been fairly unified on their views about Capital Punishment with only very slight and nuanced differences among them.
But I would also point out that these three hold views on Capital Punishment that are at odds with the vast majority of Popes as well as Church Doctors and Early Church Fathers

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What changed for John Paul II was the realization that the death penalty could be safely avoided in almost all circumstances. Most prisons were secure so there isn't a substantial risk of them escaping. So, John Paul kept the older view that the death penalty was acceptable with the newer view that it wasn't really needed very often. Pope Francis meddled with the teaching. Pope John Paul did not.

Yep

Davidnic said:

True. And we can only guess what the past few would be based on what we have available to modern technology. I think it's a mistake to say universally that It can't be allowed. There are countries that do lack the facilities to do some of the things that make death penalty reasons nonexistent.

That's why I like Pope Saint John Paul II view. Very important difference of validation of it being practically non-existent as opposed to non-existent.

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I am not an expert in theology but from what I have read , the great theologians and Saints never said that the death penalty is needed because criminals escape

It was that justice demands the ultimate punishment for crimes of such a serious nature, that it was a way of proclaiming to all the people that life is sacred and those who sin against the sacredness of human life deserve to die.
Also that the proximity of death may press the guilty to repent

Rhamiel said:

I am not an expert in theology but from what I have read , the great theologians and Saints never said that the death penalty is needed because criminals escape

It was that justice demands the ultimate punishment for crimes of such a serious nature, that it was a way of proclaiming to all the people that life is sacred and those who sin against the sacredness of human life deserve to die.
Also that the proximity of death may press the guilty to repent

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Circumstances have evolved. The Supermax prison ten miles from my house has never had an escapee. I've been in the place once to drop something off and a breakout would require something which is typically found in thriller movies. Ain't gonna actually happen. The prison built before that one, about 100 years ago but still in use, has people who escape all the time. The siren goes off every month or so and we keep our eyes peeled for some low level crook who needs to go back to his cell. There is no threat that a truly dangerous felon is going to get out because all of those are in the Supermax. Fifty years ago there was some threat that a dangerous felon could escape the old prison. Things changed. The safety of the community is protected without having to kill the truly dangerous criminals.

Life is sacred and those who have taken a life are removed from society and lose their freedom. It IS a punishment. In the past those fellows would have been put to death, which would have protected the community. But we are protected now because of the better prisons. And they are punished by being forced to live without liberty for decades.

Vengeance is not the current goal. Was it ever really the goal, at least in Christendom?

The idea that a convict will repent before execution is a good one. But how many don't repent that might have repented if they were given twenty or thirty more years? I think it's a wash.

A death sentence still has merit in countries which do not have secure prisons. It has merit for powerful cartel leaders who can buy off prison staff. It has merit for criminals who are a danger to their fellow inmates, or who if they escape are a threat to society. That is why pope Francis is wrong. He ignores the need to protect society, finding that to be unimportant. But that is a very critical thing, protecting the innocent. Saying no to each and every death sentence means that in some places some very bad people will do very bad things again. Francis blew it.

In this country we need less executions and more states that reserve execution for times and situations where it is really necessary.