Divine Determinism and You

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Atheists may have a theological perception of who God is but if it does not coincide with the Word that is the problem. God the scriptures say is love, light and spirit and we are made in the image of God. He gives us free will in a righteous system to create, love, and be light. If we live in accordance with his word, righteously, walking in love with His word in our heart and mouth we can overcome. This is the perfect law of liberty. Evil is caused by people exercising their freewill unrighteously. God is over all but does not force people to live righteously. We live in a righteous system where you reap what you sow even if a person does not believe it. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt. 12:34-37 Every thought you think moves in the unseen realm bringing forth corresponding results. This is how we are to call things which are not as though they were, utilizing God's indwelling power with faith. Everything works by faith, which can be positive or negative faith which is fear. That is why we are told to fear not. God being outside of time as shown by the prophets, sees the future but allows us to exercise our will or we would be simply robots. I hope this helps. God bless!

Since God is in control of all things and knows all things (if He wasn't He wouldn't be God) He created the circumstances of all things from the beginning. Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. He purposed this to Himself, so it is clear that all other things are purposed by God in His plan, which never changes.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” - Romans 8:28-30

As for free will, the Bible says we have a will, but it is against God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

As far as I can see, determinism is another way of expressing the Biblical concept of election and predestination. These things are taught in the Bible, and not free will or conditional cause-and-effect. There are many places in both testaments that demonstrate where God gives man the choice to do or not do things, but none of man's actions are out of the foreknowledge and control of God. That is why He is called Almighty God, Omnipotent, etc. There are many ways the Bible teaches election and predestination. Without predestination, we couldn't have prophecies from God. Prophecies are unconditional. Commandments come with conditions in that going against God has consequences and obeying Him means reward. In either case, God is in control and already knows from the beginning what our actions will be.

John 6:63-66 - "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
 
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food4thought

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Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

I would say that much that goes on in creation is not God's will. God allows it to happen for the furtherance of His good purposes, but it is plainly stated in Scripture that He "desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4), yet Scripture clearly indicates that not all men shall be saved. God is light, and in Him there is no shadow of turning. God determined beforehand to limit His control of intelligent beings and allow for a limited free will (limited by our own human frailties and capacities), and yet because God sees the end from the beginning, He can work around and through our freedom in order to bring about His desired end, which is extremely, supremely, and completely good.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

I hold to a limited free will, as I stated. I am comfortable with the answers this stance provides as well as it's compliance with the Bible.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

God created intelligent beings with a limited free will in order to create beings capable of true agape. Automatons are not capable of agape. Limited free will includes the capability for both the highest good and the highest evil, yet, in and of itself, limited free will is a good and wonderous gift. Therefore God gave angels and humans this gift despite knowing the consequences.

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Because in order to provide opportunity for agape, God has to allow for the choices of His creations, some of which are extremely evil. As for natural "evil", like disease and natural disasters, these are a direct result of God's judgement on humankind for their many heinous sins. Every human deserves death for their sin, and ultimately it does not matter whether we die a "natural" death alone, or we die along with thousands of others in a tsunami... we all die one way or another, and that is God's just judgement on our sin. I am pretty sure that not every disaster and illness is directly God's judgment on that geographic area or that individual person, still, they are the results of human sin and God's judgement upon it.

Why does Evil Exist?

Because intelligent beings with a limited free will chose to rebel against their perfectly good and just Creator. God will eventually bring this to an end, but in the meantime humans and angels are learning an important truth: existence without obedience to our perfect, omniscient, loving God will result in terrible consequences, not only punishment from God, but direct results from our sin that are terrible and inevitable. In the movie "Looper", a man who came from the future told a man from the present "You should do this. Trust me, I'm from the future." In other words, he had knowledge of the consequences of his choice, and knew what the man from the present should do. In a similar way, God knows all possible futures, and directs us only in the way that will result in the best possible ultimate good for ourselves and everyone else.

Why do we sin?

Adam and Eve had perfect freedom of will, but still chose to disobey God and do what He explicitly told them not to do. As a result, the nature of their will was corrupted, and they were then inclined to evil. In some way, one that is not clearly defined in the Bible, every one of their descendants has inherited a sin nature... mostly this is manifested as pride and selfishness, which leads us to rebel against God's will and fail to love Him and other human beings.

Why will some people be Lost?

Agape must be freely given and received. This is the entire reason for our limited free will. In order to come to Christ, one must freely accept God's offer of agape, and be willing to agape in return. Because of our fallen nature, we cannot do this apart from the enabling of God's Spirit. Some people will respond, some will not.

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

The way I understand it, God knows all possible realities. This is unfathomable to our limited minds. What this means to me is that God is steering a path for each of us who are saved that leads to the best possible outcome eternally given our free choices. The prognosis for those who never receive Christ is not so good.

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

I think my answers are solid, but I've not been challenged on them by unbelievers (atheists), but by my brothers who do not believe in my ability to reject God's will for me.

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

Perhaps not consciously, but they do.
 
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danielmears

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Since God is in control of all things and knows all things (if He wasn't He wouldn't be God) He created the circumstances of all things from the beginning. Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. He purposed this to Himself, so it is clear that all other things are purposed by God in His plan, which never changes.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” - Romans 8:28-30

As for free will, the Bible says we have a will, but it is against God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

As far as I can see, determinism is another way of expressing the Biblical concept of election and predestination. These things are taught in the Bible, and not free will or conditional cause-and-effect. There are many places in both testaments that demonstrate where God gives man the choice to do or not do things, but none of man's actions are out of the foreknowledge and control of God. That is why He is called Almighty God, Omnipotent, etc. There are many ways the Bible teaches election and predestination. Without predestination, we couldn't have prophecies from God. Prophecies are unconditional. Commandments come with conditions in that going against God has consequences and obeying Him means reward. In either case, God is in control and already knows from the beginning what our actions will be.

John 6:63-66 - "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
We start with free will and choose to live according to God's word once we believe. Who does and who does not is not a surprise to God for He sees the future as shown by the prophets and Christ. We too will be shown things to come if we are abiding in Christ, one with the Father!. Just because God knows how things turn out does not mean we do not have to do our part. The word is nigh in your heart and in your mouth that ye may do it. Love and light to all!
 
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Grip Docility

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I would say that much that goes on in creation is not God's will. God allows it to happen for the furtherance of His good purposes, but it is plainly stated in Scripture that He "desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4), yet Scripture clearly indicates that not all men shall be saved. God is light, and in Him there is no shadow of turning. God determined beforehand to limit His control of intelligent beings and allow for a limited free will (limited by our own human frailties and capacities), and yet because God sees the end from the beginning, He can work around and through our freedom in order to bring about His desired end, which is extremely, supremely, and completely good.



I hold to a limited free will, as I stated. I am comfortable with the answers this stance provides as well as it's compliance with the Bible.



God created intelligent beings with a limited free will in order to create beings capable of true agape. Automatons are not capable of agape. Limited free will includes the capability for both the highest good and the highest evil, yet, in and of itself, limited free will is a good and wonderous gift. Therefore God gave angels and humans this gift despite knowing the consequences.



Because in order to provide opportunity for agape, God has to allow for the choices of His creations, some of which are extremely evil. As for natural "evil", like disease and natural disasters, these are a direct result of God's judgement on humankind for their many heinous sins. Every human deserves death for their sin, and ultimately it does not matter whether we die a "natural" death alone, or we die along with thousands of others in a tsunami... we all die one way or another, and that is God's just judgement on our sin. I am pretty sure that not every disaster and illness is directly God's judgment on that geographic area or that individual person, still, they are the results of human sin and God's judgement upon it.



Because intelligent beings with a limited free will chose to rebel against their perfectly good and just Creator. God will eventually bring this to an end, but in the meantime humans and angels are learning an important truth: existence without obedience to our perfect, omniscient, loving God will result in terrible consequences, not only punishment from God, but direct results from our sin that are terrible and inevitable. In the movie "Looper", a man who came from the future told a man from the present "You should do this. Trust me, I'm from the future." In other words, he had knowledge of the consequences of his choice, and knew what the man from the present should do. In a similar way, God knows all possible futures, and directs us only in the way that will result in the best possible ultimate good for ourselves and everyone else.



Adam and Eve had perfect freedom of will, but still chose to disobey God and do what He explicitly told them not to do. As a result, the nature of their will was corrupted, and they were then inclined to evil. In some way, one that is not clearly defined in the Bible, every one of their descendants has inherited a sin nature... mostly this is manifested as pride and selfishness, which leads us to rebel against God's will and fail to love Him and other human beings.



Agape must be freely given and received. This is the entire reason for our limited free will. In order to come to Christ, one must freely accept God's offer of agape, and be willing to agape in return. Because of our fallen nature, we cannot do this apart from the enabling of God's Spirit. Some people will respond, some will not.



The way I understand it, God knows all possible realities. This is unfathomable to our limited minds. What this means to me is that God is steering a path for each of us who are saved that leads to the best possible outcome eternally given our free choices. The prognosis for those who never receive Christ is not so good.



I think my answers are solid, but I've not been challenged on them by unbelievers (atheists), but by my brothers who do not believe in my ability to reject God's will for me.



Perhaps not consciously, but they do.

By limited “free Will”... are you referring to mankind not being able to Will matter into existence, but having the ability to make free Will decisions amidst the Laws Of the Universe God authored?
 
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food4thought

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By limited “free Will”... are you referring to mankind not being able to Will matter into existence, but having the ability to make free Will decisions amidst the Laws Of the Universe God authored?

Yes, that is part of our limitations. Beyond that, we cannot will others to do what we want. We are also influenced by factors beyond our control or comprehension. God's Spirit seeks to influence our wills, but so do demons. We are limited also by our sin nature... yet I still see fallen, unbelieving people do good things (perhaps for the wrong motive, but they are still a benefit to others).
 
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lsume

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Einstein didn't say we don't choose. He said our will is not free. Those are two separate concepts.

Of course we choose. And of course we choose according to certain things. Atheists will say we choose inevitably as a result of causes. They are right. But they are wrong. We choose as a result of God's choice.
My understanding of quantum mechanics is an ongoing journey. However, one of the primary postulates of quantum entanglement as I understand it is that there is nothing that isn’t predestined happening in universe. I realize that the majority probably don’t believe that there actions are known in advance but that must be the reality for explaining some things. God created time and I believe He will end time.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I strongly believe that the world at large will get the chance to be saved. However, waiting till the end I consider to be unwise. I’m confident that you feel the same way. When Christ promised a more abundant life, He wants us to live in The Way. A search for all of the places “in the way” is used should yield a great deal of understanding.
The old law was not only for a way to please God, and to see the evil within oneself --it was (and is) also "so that your days may be long" and other immediate and eventual results. The are for our own good.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The only thing that I currently believe we have a choice about is giving our soul to God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. I was given the choice and by The Grace of God The Father, I trusted in the goodness of The GodHead. I had professed Christ while I was in the navy. My wife and I joined a small church and I gave my life to Christ. However, I was not yet born again. It was in God’s Time that I was reborn and it was life changing and unpleasant at the moment of rebirth. I believe that the world at large will get the opportunity to be saved.
If we don't have a choice about other things, how do we have a choice about that? But yes, we are given the opportunity --in fact, it is required. But we are not given the ability to make a real choice, without God giving us the ability to make the choice. The fact God makes the choice first, then puts the kind of faith that serves as evidence --not something we can gin up within -- is what rebirth is from. Not from our choice, but before our choice. Or choice may be concurrent, but it is surely a result --not the cause.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The Gospel proves we did nothing to save ourselves. It is ALL the work of God.
 
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lsume

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If we don't have a choice about other things, how do we have a choice about that? But yes, we are given the opportunity --in fact, it is required. But we are not given the ability to make a real choice, without God giving us the ability to make the choice. The fact God makes the choice first, then puts the kind of faith that serves as evidence --not something we can gin up within -- is what rebirth is from. Not from our choice, but before our choice. Or choice may be concurrent, but it is surely a result --not the cause.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The Gospel proves we did nothing to save ourselves. It is ALL the work of God.
We are all saved by Grace through Faith lest any man should boast as I recall. In my own testimony, first God The Father called me and then I was in Christ’s Hands. Telling someone that Christ spoke to you is generally unwise in my experience. However, the reality of being born again is knowing and understanding better the way God’s perfect plan works. I want to see everyone repent. I realize that who is ultimately saved depends on The Lambs Book of Life.
 
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I strongly believe that the world at large will get the chance to be saved. However, waiting till the end I consider to be unwise. I’m confident that you feel the same way. When Christ promised a more abundant life, He wants us to live in The Way. A search for all of the places “in the way” is used should yield a great deal of understanding.
If I’m not mistaken, Einstein spoke on spooky behavior at a distance. There is one theory generated from quantum mechanics that states that everything is predetermined. The concepts to date are based on 10 dimensions as I understand it. There are no truly random numbers either.
 
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Grip Docility

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If I’m not mistaken, Einstein spoke on spooky behavior at a distance. There is one theory generated from quantum mechanics that states that everything is predetermined. The concepts to date are based on 10 dimensions as I understand it. There are no truly random numbers either.

This is removing the one truth that blows the minds of Physicists, currently.

Article Reference from here. Can randomness exist?
You should look at the link that Qmechanic gives, as it is closely related to your question.

The "randomness" in quantum mechanics is widely misunderstood. There is nothing random in the wavefunction (or quantum field theory description) and as long as all interacting systems stay entangled the behaviour is completely predictable. We only see randomness when the system decoheres, which typically happens when when we make an observation.

The randomness when making an observation is normally considered built into quantum mechanics i.e. there is no explanation for it. It's just the way quantum mechanics works. It may seem a bit unsatifactory to just have to accept the randomness, but remember that quantum mechanics is only a mathematical model - one that so far successfully describes the universe we see around us. All mathematical models are based on some assumptions, and the randomness in making measurements is one of these assumptions. It's possible that some deeper model will be developed one day, and this model will explain why the randomness occurs. However there is no such model at the moment, nor even a hint of one.

Observation yields “Randomness” in Quantum mechanics. We are “observers”.

This leans in favor that Divinely granted Autonomy is written into the very fabric of The universe.
 
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lsume

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This all has to do with “how God Knows everything”.

No one has in the last 100 shown time to not be relative and the time/space continuum not to exist.

We might all agree that God at the end of time would know all choices including free will choice made from the beginning of time as pure history and we should agree if something historically happened it cannot be changed (it was done, so it cannot also be not be done).

If God exists everywhere in space then can He also exist everywhere in time? Can God communicate within Himself from the end of time to the beginning of time? Which means the God at the beginning of time knows all that will happen for man throughout time as a pure historical event.

For anyone to know historically a free will choice does not keep the choice from being a free will choice, so if God knows all free will choices as historical fact that does not keep them from being free will choices.

If a potential free will being is not ever going to be made, then God could not know historically what that person did, since it never did anything. As soon as the being is going to be made, God at the end of time historically knows everything about that being including if it went to heaven or hell, which can be given as history to God right after His decision to make the being, but historical information can only be given after there is (or will be) history.


I will address this separately, but it can be included in the answer to the other questions.

God could have not had the tree of knowledge nor satan in the Garden or build a high electric fence around the tree, so are Adam and Eve being set up to sin?

“Sin” has purpose and unfortunately, will be necessary for mature adult in helping them fulfill their earthly objective.

Knowing everything that can be known.
And to Have a Benevolent God Who is Willing to accept the great burden of knowing everything in advance Praise God,
 
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Mark Quayle

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We are all saved by Grace through Faith lest any man should boast as I recall. In my own testimony, first God The Father called me and then I was in Christ’s Hands. Telling someone that Christ spoke to you is generally unwise in my experience. However, the reality of being born again is knowing and understanding better the way God’s perfect plan works. I want to see everyone repent. I realize that who is ultimately saved depends on The Lambs Book of Life.
It seems you draw a lot out of what I wrote I never intended to imply. I'm not disputing any of that. My point is simply that our will --at least mine and everyone who's will I have seen tested-- is unreliable and fitful, and not suitable to for making eternal decisions. God's will, on the other hand, is perfect. And so it is the Bible shows God's decision and action producing what the elect decide.
 
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lsume

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It seems you draw a lot out of what I wrote I never intended to imply. I'm not disputing any of that. My point is simply that our will --at least mine and everyone who's will I have seen tested-- is unreliable and fitful, and not suitable to for making eternal decisions. God's will, on the other hand, is perfect. And so it is the Bible shows God's decision and action producing what the elect decide.
Something that I have experienced is that once your are Truly sealed in The Holy Spirit, The Good Lord protects you from not only the world but also from yourself. He builds like a hedge and I don’t think I can adequately describe it but I’ve met at least one other with the same experience. Being set free is a very great Blessing.
 
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Since God is in control of all things and knows all things (if He wasn't He wouldn't be God) He created the circumstances of all things from the beginning. Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. He purposed this to Himself, so it is clear that all other things are purposed by God in His plan, which never changes.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” - Romans 8:28-30

As for free will, the Bible says we have a will, but it is against God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

As far as I can see, determinism is another way of expressing the Biblical concept of election and predestination. These things are taught in the Bible, and not free will or conditional cause-and-effect. There are many places in both testaments that demonstrate where God gives man the choice to do or not do things, but none of man's actions are out of the foreknowledge and control of God. That is why He is called Almighty God, Omnipotent, etc. There are many ways the Bible teaches election and predestination. Without predestination, we couldn't have prophecies from God. Prophecies are unconditional. Commandments come with conditions in that going against God has consequences and obeying Him means reward. In either case, God is in control and already knows from the beginning what our actions will be.

John 6:63-66 - "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
Consider that at no time will any of us posses any percentage of God’s Infinite Power. To posses a percentage is to posses eternal power.
 
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