The Philippian Jailer versus Calvinism

Neogaia777

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God foreknows what option a man will choose, but God lets man choose that option and not force it upon man through predetermination. And since God foreknows what option a man will choose, God can use men's choices He foreknows they will make to accomplish His will through control, not through predetermined causation.
That is a contradiction...

What choices a man will make, or not make, God knows because he preordained it, or foreordained it through or by predetermined causation going all the way back to original cause, or the original and only un-caused cause, or, IOW's, "Him"...

Or how can one make a choice if another one already knows what he or she is going to choose before they make the choice...?

Can you answer me that...?

God Bless!
 
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TheSeabass

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Erm, this is catastrophic exegesis, shooting from the hip. - If read the lexicon carefully, you'll notice that Thayer's refers to a specific usage of 'akouo' in Matthew 13:15, in a specific context, not all usages.

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Mt. 13:15)

There's about 20 different usages of 'akouo', ranging from "to be endowed with the faculty of hearing (not deaf)" to "to perceive in the soul the inward communication of God" (See Thayer's, Genesis 1:1 (KJV)).

Now,

While it's true that the Lord said "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." - 'Hearing' ≠ 'Understanding'.

In Matthew 13,

When the disciples asked, "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. ... Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (11-13)

Proof that 'Hearing' (akouo) ≠ 'Understanding'.

Think about this: Most people have 'heard' another language being spoken, but how many will have 'understood' it ? - In the same way, you're drawing false equivalencies and jumping to conclusions.

Hence, in 1 Cor. 14:2 (another usage of 'akouo'), Paul writes "For he that speaketh in an unknowntongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

See the Ancient Greek usage of 'akouo' here, for comparison, ἀκούω - Wiktionary
The definition I gave of akouo meaning understanding, comprehension came from Thayer.
"Heard" does not mean Lydia heard a noise, that Paul's voice was just a noise she heard but that she did not understand what Paul was saying.

Lydia was already a worshipper of God, that rules out Calvinism's total depravity. If she could not understand the words spoken to her by Paul, how could she understand any words spoken to her by anyone? Lydia could speak and understand the language used back at that time.


akouo: A few examples:
Acts of the Apostles 7:54 why would they gnash on Stephen with their teeth and kill him if they did not even understand what he was saying?
Acts of the Apostles 13:44-48 why/how could the Gentiles be glad if they did not understand what they heard?
Acts of the Apostles 9:21 how could they be amazed by what the new convert Saul/Paul preached if they could not understand what he said?
1 John 5:14-15 God hears His children's prayers but does not understand what they are saying?
Hebrews 2:1 how can one give earnest heed to what he did not understand?
Colossians 1:23 the Christians at Colossae did not understand the gospel they heard?
Ephesians 1:13 how could they trust what the did not understand?
 
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Hammster

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You are not able to refute facts presented you, so you put forth strawman after strawman.
I just showed how you contradicted yourself.

And, once again, I haven’t offered an argument (so there can be no straw man). All I’ve done is show how you misrepresent what the text says. And, as shown above, misrepresent what you yourself say.
 
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trophy33

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God foreknows what option a man will choose, but God lets man choose that option and not force it upon man through predetermination. And since God foreknows what option a man will choose, God can use men's choices He foreknows they will make to accomplish His will through control, not through predetermined causation.
I do not see predetermination as forcing somebody against their will, I see it as predictibility by causation.

If a hungry dog will see a bowl full of hot meat, its certain what choice he will make, he will go there. Its predetermined by the causation, but not forced. His free will and responsibility for going there remains intact.
 
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Hammster

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I do not see predetermination as forcing somebody, I see it as predictibility by causation.

If a hungry dog will see a bowl full of hot meat, its certain what choice he will make, he will go there. Its predetermined by the causation, but not forced. His "free" will and responsibility for going there remains intact.
It’s a good point. I think it goes to show what’s meant by the heart of stone vs. the heart of flesh. Both can be given the gospel, but only one will respond favorably because of the desire to do so.
 
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TheSeabass

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That didn’t answer the question. So let’s get specific. Why the flood?
Genesis 6:5-6
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


Why the flood? Because of the wickedness of man. The context does not say HOW man got wicked, you assume he was born that way. Many verses in the Bible attest that man is wicked, NONE of them say man was born wicked.

Genesis 6:9 Noah was righteous, why was he not born and tainted with Adam's sin and wicked like everyone else?

Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
'corrupted his way" shows personal culpability in becoming wicked, not how one was passively born against his will. How could they corrupt their way if already born corrupt?

If all men are born corrupt, why didn't God destroy man before Gen 6? And if man has always been born corrupt, even before Gen 6, how is it men called on the name of the Lord in Genesis 4:26?



Genesis 8:21 "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

From youth, NOT from birth.
 
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TheSeabass

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You’re the one making an argument from scripture. If your argument is “it doesn’t say what you say, so I must be right”, that’s a weak argument. But if you are sure that the Spirit didn’t work on the eunuch, then you should have no problem showing that from the text.
You made the affirmation the Holy Spirit must first "work' on one enabling one to be able and willing to hear and understand God's word. It's up to you to prove your own affirmation, not for me to disprove it. You have not proven your affirmation from any context. If your affirmation is correct, then explain the Spirit did not miraculous "illuminate" the understanding of the eunuch instead of sending Phillip to preach to the eunuch.
 
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TheSeabass

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OK. I tried. Good look with your heresy when you stand before God.
You did not even attempt to respond to the facts I posted. Calvinist Barnes does not go along with your incorrect assessment of Psalms 58. You false theology still lacking Biblical proof.
 
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TheSeabass

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That is a contradiction...

What choices a man will make, or not make, God knows because he preordained it, or foreordained it through or by predetermined causation going all the way back to original cause, or the original and only un-caused cause, or, IOW's, "Him"...

Or how can one make a choice if another one already knows what he or she is going to choose before they make the choice...?

Can you answer me that...?

God Bless!
Not the case. Jonah 3:10 "God repented". Why would God ever need to repent if He has already predetermined all that happens?? It makes God look confused.

God having foreknowledge does not mean man cannot have free will. In the book of Jonah, Nineveh was a wicked city therefore God sent Jonah with the message " Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Jonah 3:4 Yet the city was not overthrown in 40 days as God said, does that mean God lied? No, Hebrews 6:18.

God foreknew that if Nineveh maintained their wicked course they would be destroyed in 40 days. Yet Nineveh, upon hearing Jonah, used their free will to repent. Since they used their free will to change their course of action in repenting, God repented, changed HIs course of action from destroying Nineveh to sparing them.

God foreknowing Nineveh's destruction in 40 days if they did not repent was not predetermined, set in stone to happen. Again, they used their free will and chose to repent and God changed His course of action. If everything that happens has already been predetermined by God, then God would never have any reason to "repent". The reason God does repent and change His course is because man used his free will to change his course.
 
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Genesis 6:5-6
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


Why the flood? Because of the wickedness of man. The context does not say HOW man got wicked, you assume he was born that way. Many verses in the Bible attest that man is wicked, NONE of them say man was born wicked.

Genesis 6:9 Noah was righteous, why was he not born and tainted with Adam's sin and wicked like everyone else?

Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
'corrupted his way" shows personal culpability in becoming wicked, not how one was passively born against his will. How could they corrupt their way if already born corrupt?

If all men are born corrupt, why didn't God destroy man before Gen 6? And if man has always been born corrupt, even before Gen 6, how is it men called on the name of the Lord in Genesis 4:26?



Genesis 8:21 "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

From youth, NOT from birth.
There was no law, though. How could they die?
 
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TheSeabass

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I do not see predetermination as forcing somebody against their will, I see it as predictibility by causation.

If a hungry dog will see a bowl full of hot meat, its certain what choice he will make, he will go there. Its predetermined by the causation, but not forced. His free will and responsibility for going there remains intact.

If God predetermines a man to do "x" then that man is forced to do "x", he can do nothing but "x". Man then has no free will but is just the proverbial preprogrammed robot.

If God predetermined for Pharaoh that he disobey, then Pharaoh was forced to disobey, he could do nothing else but disobey, Pharaoh had no choice or say so in the matter. Then how can God be just and righteousness in His judgments when He causes men to disobey then punishes men for the disobedience God made them do?

Animals do not have the reasoning, intellectual ability as God has given man (man is made in God's image), but animals act on instinct.
 
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You made the affirmation the Holy Spirit must first "work' on one enabling one to be able and willing to hear and understand God's word. It's up to you to prove your own affirmation, not for me to disprove it. You have not proven your affirmation from any context. If your affirmation is correct, then explain the Spirit did not miraculous "illuminate" the understanding of the eunuch instead of sending Phillip to preach to the eunuch.
You are showing desperation in trying to deflect the burden. You are the one who used the eunuch as an example of not needing the Holy Spirit to understand the gospel. All I’m asking is for you to use the actual text to prove it. We both know that you cannot. And instead of just admitting it, you are trying to shift the burden.
 
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TheSeabass

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I just showed how you contradicted yourself.

And, once again, I haven’t offered an argument (so there can be no straw man). All I’ve done is show how you misrepresent what the text says. And, as shown above, misrepresent what you yourself say.
You make assertions and assumptions. Again, in the above post of yours, you did NOT respond to facts given you, just make personal attacks against me. You avoid dealing with the facts...again.
 
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trophy33

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If God predetermines a man to do "x" then that man is forced to do "x", he can do nothing but "x". Man then has no free will but is just the proverbial preprogrammed robot.

No. Predetermination by causation is certain, but not necessary. The dog is not forced to go to the bowl of meat, even though its certain he will.

Thats the difference between it and a robot program's instruction. A robot does not put his will into his actions.
 
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TheSeabass

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You are showing desperation in trying to deflect the burden. You are the one who used the eunuch as an example of not needing the Holy Spirit to understand the gospel. All I’m asking is for you to use the actual text to prove it. We both know that you cannot. And instead of just admitting it, you are trying to shift the burden.

It's not up to me to "prove a negative".

YOU made the affirmation that one must first be acted upon by the Holy Spirit before one is willing, able to understand the word of God. The onus is therefore upon YOU to prove your own affirmation. You have not yet provided one text to support your affirmation. You have simply assumed your affirmation is already true and it's my responsibility to "unprove" it. That's not how things work.
 
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Hammster

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You make assertions and assumptions. Again, in the above post of yours, you did NOT respond to facts given you, just make personal attacks against me. You avoid dealing with the facts...again.
I’m showing how the proof texts you offer up don’t support your claims. You don’t respond to those arguments. You just try to shift the burden.
 
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Hammster

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It's not up to me to "prove a negative".

YOU made the affirmation that one must first be acted upon by the Holy Spirit before one is willing, able to understand the word of God. The onus is therefore upon YOU to prove your own affirmation. You have not yet provided one text to support your affirmation. You have simply assumed your affirmation is already true and it's my responsibility to "unprove" it. That's not how things work.
Did you bring up the example of the eunuch? Yes you did.

Same with the eunuch in Acts 8:
Acts of the Apostles 8:31 "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. "

The Spirit did not first miraculously act upon the eunuch to "enable" the eunuch, to 'illuminate' his understanding.

I’ve repeatedly asked you to show, from the text, that the Holy Spirit did NOT work in the heart of the eunuch. It’s your claim. I haven’t claimed, from the text, that the Spirit did or did not work in the heart of the eunuch. So there’s nothing for me to prove. The burden is yours.
 
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TheSeabass

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No. Predetermination by causation is certain, but not necessary. The dog is not forced to go to the bowl of meat, even though its certain he will.

Thats the difference between it and a robot program's instruction. A robot does not put his will into his actions.
Again, animals do not have free will, reasoning ability as men, they act on instinct, not created in the image of God.

If God predetermined that Pharaoh disobey, then God shared culpability in Pharaoh's sin nor could God rightly, justly condemn Pharaoh for the disobedience God made him commit.
 
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