"Distinction Theology?"

Mercy74

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As a followup to my 2 questions to both vis and ralliann would you agree that Messianic Judaism (Distinction Covenant) firmly believes that HaShem's Word (Tanakh) specifically states that a non-Jewish gentile cannot enter GOD'S Sanctuary unless circumcised of heart and flesh (in that order) ...
Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9

Lulav
has possibly been the most vocal/adamant supporter of thee 'Root' of Messianic Judaism. In other words unlike most evangelicals, Messianic Judaism does not discard the OT, but embraces it as bedrock supporting what Christendome refers to as the NT. Thus, as example, Lulav and other [orthodox] MJ's firmly believe today's non-Jewish talmidim (disciples) of Moshiach Yeshua (Christ Jesus) be circumcised of both heart and flesh according to the Word (Law) of HaShem. An example being that it be mandatory for non-Jewish talmidim participating in a Pesach Haggadah be circumcised of flesh. MJ members would not dispute that Lulav's beliefs represent the law of HaShem that is still mandatory today by His talmidim. Thus, the reestablishment of Messianic Judaism (long overdue) as representative of true 1st Century Christianity.

Therefore, Lulav and other Messianic Jews would contend that true Messianic Judaism is a Distinction Covenant first established in the Tanach not a "Distinction Theology" that only became available to both Jew and Gentile at Shavuot after the resurrection of Moshiach Yeshua.

If i am in any way misrepresenting Lulav's belief or that of [orthodox] Messianic Judaism i sincerely apologize.
The law does not say "a male child must be circumcised in the heart prior to becoming circumcised in the flesh" but the law does say "a male child must be circumcised on the 8th day". Torah teaches us that the law of circumcision comes from the father. Abraham believed YHWH and it was counted to him as righteousness; Abraham was circumcised in his heart. Abraham received the seal of righteousness, he circumcised himself as well as every male in his household. Abraham even circumcised Isaac on the 8th day. We know that it was in Isaac that the descendents of Abraham would be counted. I do not seek to give you a new law, but I seek to renew an old law into your heart "AbbaLove", every male child must be circumcised on the 8th day (Genesis 17:12) if you wish to become perfect (Genesis 17:1).
 
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ralliann

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As a followup to my 2 questions to both vis and ralliann would you agree that Messianic Judaism (Distinction Covenant) firmly believes that HaShem's Word (Tanakh) specifically states that a non-Jewish gentile cannot enter GOD'S Sanctuary unless circumcised of heart and flesh (in that order) ...
Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9

Lulav
has possibly been the most vocal/adamant supporter of thee 'Root' of Messianic Judaism. In other words unlike most evangelicals, Messianic Judaism does not discard the OT, but embraces it as bedrock supporting what Christendome refers to as the NT. Thus, as example, Lulav and other [orthodox] MJ's firmly believe today's non-Jewish talmidim (disciples) of Moshiach Yeshua (Christ Jesus) be circumcised of both heart and flesh according to the Word (Law) of HaShem. An example being that it be mandatory for non-Jewish talmidim participating in a Pesach Haggadah be circumcised of flesh. MJ members would not dispute that Lulav's beliefs represent the law of HaShem that is still mandatory today by His talmidim. Thus, the reestablishment of Messianic Judaism (long overdue) as representative of true 1st Century Christianity.

Therefore, Lulav and other Messianic Jews would contend that true Messianic Judaism is a Distinction Covenant first established in the Tanach not a "Distinction Theology" that only became available to both Jew and Gentile at Shavuot after the resurrection of Moshiach Yeshua.

If i am in any way misrepresenting Lulav's belief or that of [orthodox] Messianic Judaism i sincerely apologize.
I am sorry Abba love, I don't think I can answer your questions without violating the SOP
 
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ralliann

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In other words unlike most evangelicals, Messianic Judaism does not discard the OT, but embraces it as bedrock supporting what Christendome refers to as the NT.
I do not see this as true, but then again it depends on your terms I guess. I also think a problem is the terms being used. When the term "new testament" is used, do you mean new covenant? Then in using "old testament" to mean old covenant. I see the term "the word" being used as (law). When you say law, do you mean all 5 books of Moses (spanning many different covenants), or the Sinai covenant? Then throw in the idea of a covenant itself. Marital covenant, will of inheritance covenant (testament). Two covenants completely different context of what they enjoin in.
I think agreeing on these things might go a long way in finding agreement and unity.
 
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Laureate

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A "kingdom of priests" or kingdom annointed from priests. Abraham served at the altar (priest), was called a "mighty prince" (Genesis 23:6). In fact Melchizedek was a king, he blessed Abraham. The lesser is blessed by the greater (Hebrews 7:7). When Abram was called, was he a Jew or gentle? Abram was a gentle, yet he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of righteousness. Abram was not called a "mighty prince" until after his conversion to the tenants of Judaism.

The irony being, the tenants of Judaism is founded upon Father Abvraham, that is why we refer to him as,the Father of our Faith.
 
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Laureate

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Everything listed below pertains to following the example of the First Prophet who was Called.

"And Yésʰûʷəʰ said unto them, honestly I say unto you, That you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Adam shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that has forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many who were First shall be Last; and the Last shall be First." [Matthew 19:28-30]
 
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Laureate

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There was a Torah Covenant at that time, but not in the sense of the Torah "Law" of today's orthodox Judaism. God's Torah at the time of Abraham was obeying the Word of God and Abraham was counted as being righteous by God. King Melchizedek of Salem (possibly Jerusalem) was the high priest during the life of Abraham. No where in the Bible does it ever imply that Abraham worshiped idols or was considered a pagan in the eyes of God? One might even say that Abraham was a Torah Man in that he obeyed God.

Genesis 14:19-20
19 and he (Melchizedek) blessed Abram and said: “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth,
20 and blessed by God Most High, who has delivered you enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.​

Possibly the biggest mistake Israel made (IMO) was leaving the Promised Land and resettling in Egypt. Thus due to living in a pagan culture for 400 years God had to establish a Torah Covenant of "laws" with the Ten Commandments plus more and more commands with the purpose being to prevent Israel from embracing the pagan influence of their new neighbors. Joseph's two Egyptian son's descendants comprise a significant populous of the Lost Tribes.


And in like manner, the Sephardic Spain (Manasseh) and Portugal (Apʰrîyém), and the assortment of Latin tribes (from the land of עברי Iberia the Hebrews) comprises the greater portion of those who were separated from them.
 
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Mercy74

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The irony being, the tenants of Judaism is founded upon Father Abvraham, that is why we refer to him as,the Father of our Faith.
Yes indeed. Abram was priest before he became a "mighty prince". It was evil for Israel to desire a king when Samuel lead them as prophet and priest; YHWH served as her father and king during her long journey. Samuel anointed both Saul and David as kings of Israel (Matthew 23:9). Ironically the Catholics are taught to call their priests "father", yet they do not build altars, are not permitted to marry wives and have children. Samuel served the people as priest and prophet; we have many whom serve the people as teachers but few are fathers (1 Corinthians 4:15). Paul the Pharisee begot the Corinthian church in Christ; Paul was an apostle or father to the gentiles. It was the duty of Abraham to circumcise his sons Isaac and Ishmael; Paul the son of a Pharisee circumcised Timothy. We know the Pharisees are the strictest sect of our religion (Acts 26:5)
 
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bèlla

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Dave, thank you for sharing the message. I suspect this is my favorite post from you. :)

You are addressing function and that is the probable root of contention for many. Flesh desires equality in station and function and when its absent we mimic children and decry the sibling who received more or something we didn’t.

Yet, we are shown in the new testament that distinctions exist. Paul’s exposition of crowns are specific and are earned through our deeds. They aren’t dispensed to all.

We see a continuation of the Jewish place in the naming of gates. They could have been named after the disciples but God chose the 12 tribes instead.

Practically speaking, we aren’t lessened in His eyes if one bears a crown and the other doesn’t. His infallible love is capable of exhibiting itself without forming distinctions in the heart. Differing roles don’t equal lessening in His eyes.

If we consider the diversity of gifts and talents that are addressed in several places we see evidence that function is a hallmark of His kingdom. Some are called to offices and others to work which supports (or spearheads) the missions He sets.

We are not aggrieved by the idea we are lacking in a certain gift (most of us). But encounter a stumbling block on this subject. We must direct our thoughts to the heart to pluck out the thorn that impedes its embrace.

I don’t believe this is the lone struggle. We are apt to see God and the kingdom through the narrowness of our existence when its reality is greater.

There are those who wish to emphasize differences and others who promote ideologies fueled by hidden needs that are best resolved by God. If you’re wholly focused on your position within the Body as opposed to the work you’ve been given to perform that’s a problem. It is my consensus that hails from pride not love.

As a servant, it isn’t mine to define the chain of command or its makeup. That’s the Commander’s job. And if He declared specific roles for Jews and others within His command who am I to complain?

I made a choice to follow Him. And He never said I’d make the rules. The role of Jews in the kingdom and their function is only grievous if you must come first and cannot accept your place in light of theirs.
 
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Dave-W

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ralliann

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Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 2:11-17)
Since this thread involves "Priesthood" I think comments on this verse is excellent for this thread. Think priesthood here.
Who is the Christ in this next verse?
"in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"
Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed <04899> (Messiah)
Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed <04899>(Messiah)
Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed <04899>(Messiah)
Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed <04899>(Messiah) in his stead
As the op points out the function of the order of Aaron (as a Levitical priesthood) as representative agency before God. Appearing before God on behalf of Israel.
Whom did they represent?
Ex 28:29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
No Gentiles were named there
Ex 39:14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.
This is what Ephesians is speaking about. Apart from circumcision a Gentile had no tribal affiliation and therefore no Messiah before God
04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh
from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}
AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Ephesians is "distinguishing" between the "Annointed ones".
Above he speaks of the High priest according to the order of Aaron
Below he speaks of the high priest as specifically order of Mechizedek in Jesus
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
 
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pinacled

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I just received FFOZ Messiah Journal #134, and Thomas Lancaster has an article on Judaizing (really different definition) and gets into Replacement theology, Supersessionism, "One Law" theory and a number of other approaches to the question of Torah observance in the New Covenant, with the interaction between Jewish and Gentile tribes within our Redeemed Nation. He defines it this way (page 33 and following)

Distinction Theology
What is distinction theology? It’s the premise that there is a difference between Jewish people and Gentiles, even after they become Yeshua followers. To explain the concept, we need to begin with the betrothal passage from Exodus 19.
When the children of Israel arrived at Mount Sinai, HaShem made the nation an offer:
“You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel. (Exodus 19:4–6)
On the basis of this passage, we call the nation of Israel “the chosen people.” Observe here that God chose this nation to be:
1. “My treasured possession.” This is the Hebrew word segulah. It’s an old Semitic term for a king’s trophy or prize that he carries off from a battle. It’s a token of his victory. Israel is God’s segulah, or trophy, which signifies God’s defeat of Egypt, the defeat of the gods of Egypt, and God’s conquest of the nations.
2. “A kingdom of priests.” A priest, or kohen, is a person set apart from a group of people as a representative to serve the gods. In the ancient world, not everyone had the time to be sacrificing all day and keeping the gods happy, so agriculturalists developed a priestly class of people who could take care of that function on their behalf. The priests represented the people’s interests to the gods and the gods’ interests to the people. The priests were like ambassadors between the people and the gods. When the LORD says that he wants Israel to be among the nations like a priesthood, it implies that the nation of Israel is to serve the rest of humanity as the priestly nation. They are to be to the other nations of the world what the Aaronic priesthood was to the rest of the nation of Israel. They convey the revelation of God to the nations, and they serve God on behalf of the nations.
3. “A holy nation.” A priesthood is set apart from the rest of the people for the holy service. For example, a kohen is not permitted to enter a cemetery or attend a funeral except for those of his closest relatives. He needs to maintain a state of ritual purity. A regular Israelite, by contrast, has a mitzvah to attend a funeral and escort the dead. There is a distinction between priests and non-priests and their respective obligations. There is a distinction between priests and non-priests in terms of privileges and prerogatives as well. For example, only the priests can approach the altar, splash the blood, enter the Sanctuary, burn the incense, or light the menorah. Only the high priest can enter the holy of holies.
Likewise, as a holy nation, Israel is set apart. The Jewish people have special priestly duties that the rest of the nations do not. There are things they are required to do that the rest of the nations are not required to do. They also have privileges and prerogatives that the rest of the nations don’t have. That’s what distinction theology is about.

Distinction theology: The theological perspective that teaches a distinction between Jewish and Gentile disciples.
I would like to hear your comments on this. From the teachings of David J Rudolph PhD, MJTI, My own beliefs pretty much line up with with what Lancaster has written here.
Recently I've had the honor to discuss the Torah of devarim/ deuteronomy 22 and the context of consent and disconcerting english misstranlations of hebrew connotation.

While shechem was held in utter disregard by 2 of the 11 brothers of Dinah.
I imagine she suffered her brothers cruelty more than a plague of famine upon the land.
If she were in fact in love with shechem. And avraham acted according to her hearts counsel. Her brothers defied their father, plotted deceit and shed blood as David had. Leaving her to mourn a number of days for the man who showed her humbleness. A field And shew bread indeed.

If this be the case. Dinah would be left as a widow to the husband she truly loved. And further more if a son or daughter were to come from their consomation, they would be orphaned.

Something that reminds me of the widow whom eliyahu visited.
I imagine she was of the tribe of yhdh.
Or even likely a decendent of Leah.
 
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Gregory Wilson

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Who did Peter write to?

1 Pet 1.1
Peter, an emissary of Messiah Yeshua,

To the sojourners of the Diaspora in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia—chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, set apart by the Ruach for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Yeshua the Messiah:

May grace and shalom be multiplied to you.​

He was writing to Believing Jews dispersed to those many places. His quote is taken from Deut 7.6 and Isaiah 61.6 and is addressed to the Jewish people.

Good point!! Yet Romans 11 says Gentiles are grafted into this Jewish olive tree. And it says elsewhere that we are all One in Messiah, Jew and Gentile, and Gal 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek... And then what seems to do it for me is Yeshua's words in Matthew 5:19 - WHOEVER keeps and teaches the commandments will be called great in the kingdom. And surely the kingdom is made up of more than Jews. So yes I think Gentiles in Messiah are called to observe the parts of Torah that are applicable to them as well... Shalom,

Greg
 
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While shechem was held in utter disregard by 2 of the 11 brothers of Dinah.
I imagine she suffered her brothers cruelty more than a plague of famine upon the land.
If she were in fact in love with shechem. And avraham acted according to her hearts counsel. Her brothers defied their father, plotted deceit and shed blood as David had. Leaving her to mourn a number of days for the man who showed her humbleness. A field And shew bread indeed.

If this be the case. Dinah would be left as a widow to the husband she truly loved. And further more if a son or daughter were to come from their consomation, they would be orphaned.

Something that reminds me of the widow whom eliyahu visited.
I imagine she was of the tribe of yhdh.
Or even likely a decendent of Leah.
This scenario and other Biblical accounts reminds us of Leviticus 19:18 and Yeshua's Words in Matthew 5:38-48.

Shakespeare's inspiration for his plots/intrigue comes from the best source for the human nature of fallen sinful mankind including how women were [mis]treated.
 
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