The Philippian Jailer versus Calvinism

Hammster

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Honestly I think Jesus was pretty clear that he was far less appreciative of purity of doctrine than he was about those who love God and show it by their attitude, their words, their actions. And he was pretty harsh with those who kept and enforced strict doctrine but failed to show compassion and love and charity for others.

So yes. The truth of God and what He has done should be taught and preached but more importantly lived by those of us who are redeemed and blessed with a relationship with him.

And I'm pretty sure we all miss the mark here and there on what is correct doctrine and we're all going to have a good laugh when we enter the next life and find out how much we got wrong. :)
He wasn’t harsh to those who kept strict doctrine. He was harsh to those who put undue burdens on others with legalism. He criticized Nicodemus for not having strict doctrine.
 
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Hammster

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Well I trust that you live your faith as best you can and I think God honors that. But we will have to disagree on this one. My faith is that all are loved and can receive the grace of God and eternal life. Otherwise there really has been no point to any of this.
How do you know that?
 
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Hammster

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There are verses that speak to the fact that God "repented". If God has predetermined all that happens then there would never be a need for God to "repent". Below, (in blue), is a post I made in another thread on this topic in how God's foreknowledge does not do away with man's free will:

God having foreknowledge does not mean man cannot have free will. In the book of Jonah, Nineveh was a wicked city therefore God sent Jonah with the message " Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Jonah 3:4 Yet the city was not overthrown in 40 days as God said, does that mean God lied? No, Hebrews 6:18.

God foreknew that if Nineveh maintained their wicked course they would be destroyed in 40 days. Yet Nineveh, upon hearing Jonah, used their free will to repent. Since they used their free will to change their course of action in repenting, God repented, changed His course of action from destroying Nineveh to sparing them.

God foreknowing Nineveh's destruction in 40 days if they did not repent was not predetermined, set in stone to happen. Again, they used their free will and chose to repent and God changed His course of action. If everything that happens has already been predetermined by God, then God would never have any reason to "repent". The reason God does repent and change His course is because man used his free will to change his course
.

Again, if God predetermined all that happens, that makes Him culpable for all sin that has occurred, yet God has no such culpability. So the idea God has predetermined all that happens can easily and correctly be dismissed.
Now you are promoting open theism.
 
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TheSeabass

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I don't know how God opened her heart and neither do you. But I do know it was according to his good pleasure according to Ephesians 1. If you think you have rose above this verse or the entire chapter of Roman's 9 and saved yourself through the sinners prayer you are Tragically and sadly mistaken. Please read Romans 9. The entire chapter. How does anyone think they are the ones taking the initiative to be saved. It is God who controls this. No one else. We are helpless to even ask "what must I do to be Saved" without the Lord putting it in our hearts. Please any of the Armenians out there, how is Romans 9 not an example of God's grace and the way to be forgiven without any works on my part. Must I have a spark of good that makes me cry out to God or does God spark me to cry out? Please answer. Is it me or God that brings my salvation.

The context shows Lydia's heart was opened by words spoken to her by Paul. Just as Peter's words pricked the hearts of those in Acts 2 he spoke to. Acts of the Apostles 11:14 the Gentiles would be saved by 'words' not by a mystical, miraculous movement of the HS. Words were spoken to the jailor, the eunuch and other conversions in Acts for God has chosen preaching to save 1 Corinthians 1:21. The idea her heart was opened directly, miraculously by the Holy Spirit is not in the context, but assumed into the text. 2 Corinthians 5:20 "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us..." Those that preach God's word are the tools God uses to open men's heart to obey the gospel of Christ. Acts of the Apostles 14:25-27 it is by preaching of the word that opens the door of faith unto people.

Lydia could hear - understand what was spoken to hear, yet the Lord opened her heart to heed those things spoken to her. Simply hearing the gospel and mere acknowledgment of facts (belief only) is not enough. One must heed to the spoken gospel word. Lydia heeded/responded to Paul's message when she was baptized, as those in Acts 2 did per verse 38. It is not enough to hear the message, but it must be responded to.

Romans 9 is not about Calvinism. People force tenets of Calvinism into that chapter.

If you are an adherent to Luther's faith only then tell me who do you serve. The Bile gives us just 2 options, salvation or condemnation, not third option, nothing in between. Paul lays out these two options in Romans 6:16. Each of us are serving one of two masters:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Which one of these two masters does Luther's faith only have you serving?
 
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Hammster

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The context shows Lydia's heart was opened by words spoken to her by Paul. Just as Peter's words pricked the hearts of those in Acts 2 he spoke to.
Let’s see what the verse says.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14

Look at that. It’s right in the text. We don’t even need to speculate. The Lord opened her heart.
 
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TheSeabass

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Yes. That’s how the Lord did it. She didn’t do it herself.

The word was preached to Lydia, she heard it and responded to it, obeyed it. Nothing in the context remotely suggest there was some mystical miraculous event by the Holy Spirit upon her.
 
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Hammster

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Just as Peter's words pricked the hearts of those in Acts 2 he spoke to.
Let’s look at this one.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
— Acts 2:37

“Now when they heard it, they were pricked in their heartes, and said vnto Peter and the other Apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we doe?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37‬ ‭GNV‬‬

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37‬ ‭ESV‬‬


Just as I thought. Not one of them says explicitly that they were pricked by Peter’s words. Is there somewhere in Acts we can look at to see what happens when the gospel is preached?

Hmmm

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14
 
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Hammster

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The word was preached to Lydia, she heard it and responded to it, obeyed it. Nothing in the context remotely suggest there was some mystical miraculous event by the Holy Spirit upon her.
Except for what the text actually says.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14
 
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TheSeabass

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You are full of it. And by full of it I mean.... You are like those that come out years later instead of at the time
Unfortunately, people dismiss the facts given in the text about Lydia and force Calvinism into it.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING in the text remotely suggests Lydia was "totally depraved" and unable to hear, understand comprehend what was spoken to her by Paul unless the HS first acted upon her in some miraculous way.

Same with the eunuch in Acts 8:
Acts of the Apostles 8:31 "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. "

The Spirit did not first miraculously act upon the eunuch to "enable" the eunuch, to 'illuminate' his understanding. Instead the Spirit sent for a man named Phillip to preach to the eunuch and guide him. Like Lydia, the eunuch heard what was spoken and then responded, heeded to what was spoken to him..."and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

Acts 15:11 Peter points out Jew and Gentile are saved in a "like manner" way. God is not a respecter of persons for all who will be saved will be saved in the same like manner way in having God's word preached to them, they hear/understand it and respond, give heed to that word.
 
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Hammster

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Nothing, and I mean NOTHING in the text remotely suggests Lydia was "totally depraved" and unable to hear, understand comprehend what was spoken to her by Paul unless the HS first acted upon her in some miraculous way.
Nothing in the text says the opposite. Except for this

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14
 
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Hammster

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The Spirit did not first miraculously act upon the eunuch to "enable" the eunuch, to 'illuminate' his understanding
Where does it say that explicitly?

I’ll wait.
 
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TheSeabass

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It is definitely heretical
The heresy is the man made idea of original sin.

Romans 4:15 "... for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 "....sin is transgression of the law".

For sin to exist there 1) must be a law that exists AND 2) that law must be transgressed. This totally eliminates the man made idea of original sin having people passively born sinners. Sin is dead to the new born whereby they cannot transgress law Romans 7:7-9
 
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Hammster

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The heresy is the man made idea of original sin.

Romans 4:15 "... for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 "....sin is transgression of the law".

For sin to exist there 1) must be a law that exists AND 2) that law must be transgressed. This totally eliminates the man made idea of original sin having people passively born sinners. Sin is dead to the new born whereby they cannot transgress law Romans 7:7-9
Why did people die before the law was given?
 
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TheSeabass

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I challenge anyone to read these verses and tell me they don't say the wicked are sinful from birth.
The text in Psalms 58:3 is poetic and highly figurative. Even Calvinist Albert Barnes admits original sin cannot be gleaned from the passage "The words, “the wicked,” here do not necessarily refer to the whole human family (though what is thus affirmed is true of all the human race), but to people who in their lives develop a wicked character; and the affirmation in regard to them is that they go astray early in life - from their very infancy.

Strictly speaking, therefore, it cannot be shown that the psalmist in this declaration had reference to the whole human race, or that he meant to make a universal declaration in regard to man as being early estranged or alienated from God; and the passage, therefore, cannot directly, and with exact propriety, be adduced to prove the doctrine that “original sin” pertains to all the race--"

Barnes is basically saying David is talking about his enemies, but in general, David is speaking about all people who BECOME wicked, who GO ASTRAY early in life in their youth, not at birth. Genesis 8:21 says man's heart is evil from his youth...not at birth. The Bible does not contradict itself.

In the immediate context of Psalms 58:3 David says:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD
.

--they "go astray" showing personal culpability and not how they were passively born against their will. The passages does not say one is responsible for the sins of another.
--they speak lies. Obviously new borns cannot speak.
-must have their "teeth broken". Again, not a reference to new borns. The wicked are spoken of as poisonous snakes. The idea is they should be killed to stop their poison from spreading.
--to take the passage literally, then David is not talking about human infants, but young lions.

Albert Barnes point being, looking at ones life in whole, early in life at youth one moves from God, he speaks lies, ie, rebels against God speaking things contrary to God and will not listen to God.

Further more if tries to literalize Psalms 58:3 with Psalms 51:5, then one has a problem. Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth while Psalms 51:5 speaks of conception. Conception and birth are two distinct points separated by about 9 months. If one is literally conceived a sinner then he cannot become a sinner at birth for he already is a sinner. If one is not a sinner until he is born, then he cannot be a sinner at conception.
 
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TheSeabass

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Let’s see what the verse says.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14

Look at that. It’s right in the text. We don’t even need to speculate. The Lord opened her heart.
The verse does NOT say the Lord opened her heart to enable her to hear, understand what Paul spoke to her. But the verse says the Lord opened her heart TO RESPOND to the things already spoken by Paul.

She was a worshipper of God, therefore not totally depraved leaving her unable, unwilling to hear/understand what was spoken to her
 
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Hammster

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The verse does NOT say the Lord opened her heart to enable her to hear, understand what Paul spoke to her. But the verse says the Lord opened her heart TO RESPOND to the things already spoken by Paul.
You said there was no working of God. Are you changing your mind?
 
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