WHAT DOES IT MEAN , ARE THE 12 IN, OR OUT OF THE

Dan Perez

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When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:8-10.

ONCE for ALL. What do you understand by these words? Try Acts of the Apostles 2:39 for an explanation of the extent of the promise of God.
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Hi and though you never addressed the OP , I an glad to answer yours !!

To answer Acts 2:39 we need to see who Peter is talking to !!

#1 In verse 36 Peter is speaking to the HOUSE OF ISRAEL !!

#2 In Acts 2:39 who is that PROMISE given to ?

#3 That PROMISE is given to the children of Israel as Israel was a defeated nation and scattered all over the Roman Empire !!

#4 The PROMISE was the HOLY SPIRIT in Acts 2:33 !!

dan p
 
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Pepper77

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What a twisted and perverse interpretation of a straightforward text intended to imply Christians should not be racists or mysogynists.
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Exactly what I thoughT. It makes no sense, I guess there is no gender in the body of Christ either.
 
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ExTiff

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Hi and though you never addressed the OP , I an glad to answer yours !!

To answer Acts 2:39 we need to see who Peter is talking to !!

#1 In verse 36 Peter is speaking to the HOUSE OF ISRAEL !!

#2 In Acts 2:39 who is that PROMISE given to ?

#3 That PROMISE is given to the children of Israel as Israel was a defeated nation and scattered all over the Roman Empire !!

#4 The PROMISE was the HOLY SPIRIT in Acts 2:33 !!

dan p

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts of the Apostles 10:34-47.

Peter also said this to Gentiles who received that same Holy Spirit. So the people includes Gentiles with Israelites. There is no 'division' in the body of Christ.

"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1 Corinthians 10:17.

Who is the "One Bread"? How many bodies are there of Christ? How many people of God are there? 1 Peter 2:10, Revelation 21:3. How many folds with how many shepherds? John 10:16.

Hebrews enter the New Covenant in Christ's blood by exactly the same criteria as do believing Gentiles, BY FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is precisely why the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. There is but one Covenant for the remission of sin and it applies to ALL who have faith in God's promises and call on His name as Father, trusting in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Any other interpretation which tries to divide the body is bogus, racist heresy.

There is now but ONE Covenant remitting sin. One Lord, One faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. Everybody, Jew, Gentile, free, slave, Greek, Roman, black, white, male, female, all nations, ALL must enter and remain in that Covenant and are consequently saved by God through faith in God's Grace demonstrated in the blood of Christ, alone.
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Pepper77

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Or both genders in the body of christ. Our bodies have gender but what about souls? Matthew 22:30.
Now on this earth we are body soul and spirit. Once we have been redeemed completely we will have new resurrection bodies. Christ had a body after he resurrected, and still appeared as a man.... not a woman or a person with no gender. So I’m thinking we will still have our gender then too. We won’t marry because we will be married to Christ and will be totally like him and joined to Him completely. We are joined to Him now, but then it will be complete. We will have no need to be married. We will be completely fulfilled, longing for nothing.
 
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ExTiff

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Now on this earth we are body soul and spirit. Once we have been redeemed completely we will have new resurrection bodies. Christ had a body after he resurrected, and still appeared as a man.... not a woman or a person with no gender. So I’m thinking we will still have our gender then too. We won’t marry because we will be married to Christ and will be totally like him and joined to Him completely. We are joined to Him now, but then it will be complete. We will have no need to be married. We will be completely fulfilled, longing for nothing.

You are surely not suggesting single sex marriage in heaven? Fine for females to imagine being married to Christ, but I do not find that idea a comfortable one. I am quite willing to accept though that we will be 'like Him'. 1 John 3:2.
 
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Pepper77

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You are surely not suggesting single sex marriage in heaven? Fine for females to imagine being married to Christ, but I do not find that idea a comfortable one. I am quite willing to accept though that we will be 'like Him'. 1 John 3:2.
Single sex marriage? Do you mean same sex marriage? In heaven, it’s a spiritual union, not a physical one with Christ, just as we are joined to Him even now spiritually. So I’m not talking about a physical sexual marriage like we have now. It’s a spiritual union and the church is referred to as the bride of Christ now, Eph 5:25-32. It’s going to be very different than marriage on this earth. Marriage now is a picture of the union between Christ and those who are joined to Him through faith, male and female.
 
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Dan Perez

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Or both genders in the body of christ. Our bodies have gender but what about souls? Matthew 22:30.


Hi and even Israel will have no marriage in the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM as seen in Matt 28:30 !!

dan p
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hi to all and among Grace believers , this question is still being debated !!

Are the 12 apostles IN the BODY OF CHRIST or are they OUT OF THE BODY OF CHRIST !!

What say you ??

dan p
Sounds like a gnostic question, what's the goal of it?

I'm curious what believers debate whether the apostles were born again and part of the body of Christ? (I was not aware of this particular debate, when did it start?)

John the Baptizer (not denominationally a Baptist ;) ) Was the best man for the wedding though.
 
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ExTiff

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Single sex marriage? Do you mean same sex marriage? In heaven, it’s a spiritual union, not a physical one with Christ, just as we are joined to Him even now spiritually. So I’m not talking about a physical sexual marriage like we have now. It’s a spiritual union and the church is referred to as the bride of Christ now, Eph 5:25-32. It’s going to be very different than marriage on this earth. Marriage now is a picture of the union between Christ and those who are joined to Him through faith, male and female.

So where does 'gender' come into all that then? Surely gender is only of importance in a physical context, not in a spiritual one. In the spirit there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female, black nor white. God is no respecter of persons and therefore probably also no respector of gender. We are all 'one' in Christ.
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ExTiff

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Sounds like a gnostic question, what's the goal of it?

I'm curious what believers debate whether the apostles were born again and part of the body of Christ? (I was not aware of this particular debate, when did it start?)

John the Baptizer (not denominationally a Baptist ;) ) Was the best man for the wedding though.

It's certainly a 'silly' question. Jesus Christ established the church upon the teaching of Christ through His Apostles, Matthew 16:18, Acts of the Apostles 12:5, the church is 'Holy, Catholic and Apostolic'. Any notion that the Apostles themselves could be excluded from the church, which IS the body of Christ, which they were essential to the establishment of, is as cockeyed a notion as I have ever come across yet in the field of whacky unjoinedup theology.
 
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ExTiff

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Hi and even Israel will have no marriage in the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM as seen in Matt 28:30 !!

dan p

So what does Matt 28:30 say? Anyone care to tell us? I couldn't find such a verse in any of my translations of the bible? Maybe that explains the strange theological conclusions that Dan Perez reaches using his bible of extra verses.
 
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Pepper77

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So where does 'gender' come into all that then? Surely gender is only of importance in a physical context, not in a spiritual one. In the spirit there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female, black nor white. God is no respecter of persons and therefore probably also no respector of gender. We are all 'one' in Christ.
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Yes, God is no respector of persons for sure. But because we are different doesn’t mean God is showing favoritism one over another. Different is not bad and gender is not bad, or one superior over the other. In The body of Christ our gender or race do not disappear. We are all equally part of Christ, His body and each other. Our identity in the new creation is being In Christ, joined to Him. I see your point on gender’s main importance being the physical. But gender is a part of who we are. Do we lose who we are personality wise and soul wise in heaven? How much of that do we retain? Our soul and spirit continue on I believe, according to what I have read in scripture. It doesn’t explicitly say exactly what our bodies will be except they will be glorified and immortal. Will we retain our different races? It doesn’t say that either. But like I said, Christ retained His manhood when he resurrected. He is a king also, which indicates gender. This is one of those topics we can have opinions and ideas on, different ones and that’s fine. We won’t know for sure till we are with Him. Whatever it will be like it will be perfect!
 
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Dan Perez

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[QUOTE="ExTiff,
Who is the "One Bread"? How many bodies are there of Christ? How many people of God are there? 1 Peter 2:10, Revelation 21:3. How many folds with how many shepherds? John 10:16.

Hebrews enter the New Covenant in Christ's blood by exactly the same criteria as do believing Gentiles, BY FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is precisely why the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. There is but one Covenant for the remission of sin and it applies to ALL who have faith in God's promises and call on His name as Father, trusting in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Any other interpretation which tries to divide the body is bogus, racist heresy.

There is now but ONE Covenant remitting sin. One Lord, One faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. Everybody, Jew, Gentile, free, slave, Greek, Roman, black, white, male, female, all nations, ALL must enter and remain in that Covenant and are consequently saved by God through faith in God's Grace demonstrated in the blood of Christ, alone.
.[/QUOTE]


Hi and the ACT 28er believe in 2 bodies !!

Where is there a verse saying , But one covenant remitting sin , and is that John 20:23 , so how did the APOSTLES REMIT SINS ??

Eph 4:5 reads ONE BAPTISM , But the Greek word is NOT BAPTISM/BAPTIZO , but is the Greek word BAPTISMA , so what does BAPTISMA , THAN MEAN ??

You have quote Everybody , Jew , Gentile , free , slave , Greek , Roman , blk , white , REMAINS in that COVENANT , BUT Gal 3:28 does not mention " THAT COVENANT " , why not ??

Please gives verse to clarify ?

dan p
 
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ExTiff

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[QUOTE="ExTiff,
Who is the "One Bread"? How many bodies are there of Christ? How many people of God are there? 1 Peter 2:10, Revelation 21:3. How many folds with how many shepherds? John 10:16.

Hebrews enter the New Covenant in Christ's blood by exactly the same criteria as do believing Gentiles, BY FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is precisely why the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. There is but one Covenant for the remission of sin and it applies to ALL who have faith in God's promises and call on His name as Father, trusting in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Any other interpretation which tries to divide the body is bogus, racist heresy.

There is now but ONE Covenant remitting sin. One Lord, One faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. Everybody, Jew, Gentile, free, slave, Greek, Roman, black, white, male, female, all nations, ALL must enter and remain in that Covenant and are consequently saved by God through faith in God's Grace demonstrated in the blood of Christ, alone.
.


Hi and the ACT 28er believe in 2 bodies !!

Where is there a verse saying , But one covenant remitting sin , and is that John 20:23 , so how did the APOSTLES TREMIT SINS ??

Eph 4:5 reads ONE BAPTISM , But the Greek word is NOT BAPTISM/BAPTIZO , but is the Greek word BAPTISMA , so what does BAPTISMA , THRE MEAN ??

You have quote Everybody , Jew , Gentile , free , slave , Greek , Roman , blk , white , REMAINS in that COVENANT , BUT Gal 3:28 does not mention " THAT COVENANT " , why not ??

Please gives verse to clarify ?

dan p

Two bodies? What nonsense! Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14.

The Apostles remitted sins by preaching the Gospel of reconciliation to both Jew and Gentile alike. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, Romans 2:9-10.

Matthew 26:27-29, Luke 3:1-8, Luke 24:46-49, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Acts of the Apostles 10:42-47.

I recommend to you 2 Timothy 2:15.
 
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Dan Perez

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Two bodies? What nonsense! Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14.

The Apostles remitted sins by preaching the Gospel of reconciliation to both Jew and Gentile alike. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, Romans 2:9-10.

Matthew 26:27-29, Luke 3:1-8, Luke 24:46-49, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Acts of the Apostles 10:42-47.

I recommend to you 2 Timothy 2:15.


Hi and the main reason that they believe in 2 BODIES , is because , they refuse to accept that the first 7 letters Paul wrote are NOT to the B O C !!

In m John 20:22 they received the POWER of HOLY SPIRIT to REMIT SINS and does not say anything about the Gospel !!

To me that answe of REMITTING SINS is in Acts 2:8 , the BAPTISM of HOLY SPIRIT a Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT and this is NOT WATER BAPTISM !!

dan p
 
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ExTiff

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Hi and the main reason that they believe in 2 BODIES , is because , they refuse to accept that the first 7 letters Paul wrote are NOT to the B O C !!

In m John 20:22 they received the POWER of HOLY SPIRIT to REMIT SINS and does not say anything about the Gospel !!

To me that answe of REMITTING SINS is in Acts 2:8 , the BAPTISM of HOLY SPIRIT a Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT and this is NOT WATER BAPTISM !!

dan p

ALL Paul's letters were to 'the body of Christ'. Whatever you seem to understand by the 'B O C' seems to be merely a thinly disguised antisemitism. A convenient way of pretending that the 'Church' is the 'body' and it is entirely complrised of Gentiles because faithful Israel, Christ's own people even, are supposedly not 'the body of Christ'. This is not theology, just 'taurus faeces' and racist wishful thinking.

I acknowledge only one baptism for the remission of sins and one resurrection of the body. The resurrection to life of only ONE body, which is ALL those who are in Christ, Romans 8:1-2, who IS the resurrection and the life. John 11:25. The ONE body is all those who are resurrected to life, the rest are resurrected to judgment and indeterminate correction.

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
.
 
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ExTiff

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Eph 4:5 reads ONE BAPTISM , But the Greek word is NOT BAPTISM/BAPTIZO , but is the Greek word BAPTISMA , so what does BAPTISMA , THAN MEAN ??

Please gives verse to clarify ?

dan p

Ephesians 4:5
βάπτισμα
STRONG’S NUMBER: g0908
Dictionary Definition g0908. βάπτισμα baptisma; from 907; baptism (technically or figuratively): — baptism.
AV (22) - baptism 22; Matthew 3:7, Matthew 21:25, Mark 1:4, Mark 10:38-39, Mark 11:30, Luke 3:3, Luke 12:50, Luke 20:4, Acts of the Apostles 1:22, Acts of the Apostles 10:37, Acts of the Apostles 13:24, Acts of the Apostles 19:3-4, Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Peter 3:21.

immersion, submersion of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed; of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost. Of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water.
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Pepper77

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ALL Paul's letters were to 'the body of Christ'. Whatever you seem to understand by the 'B O C' seems to be merely a thinly disguised antisemitism. A convenient way of pretending that the 'Church' is the 'body' and it is entirely complrised of Gentiles because faithful Israel, Christ's own people even, are supposedly not 'the body of Christ'. This is not theology, just 'taurus faeces' and racist wishful thinking.

I acknowledge only one baptism for the remission of sins and one resurrection of the body. The resurrection to life of only ONE body, which is ALL those who are in Christ, Romans 8:1-2, who IS the resurrection and the life. John 11:25. The ONE body is all those who are resurrected to life, the rest are resurrected to judgment and indeterminate correction.

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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I agree with everything you said. One thing you said I was not familiar with. You said the lost are resurrected to judgement and indeterminate correction. Can you explain what you mean by indeterminate correction? Thank you.
 
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I agree with everything you said. One thing you said I was not familiar with. You said the lost are resurrected to judgement and indeterminate correction. Can you explain what you mean by indeterminate correction? Thank you.

The Greek term used for the period of time mentioned by Christ in the pasage quoted, means: 'an age of punishment', (αἰώνιος aiōnios : i.e. ages long), often translated into English as everlasting or eternal, but more likely meaning here 'for as long as necessary', which of course could even also turn out to be eternally.

However Christ never used the term 'αἰώνιος / aiōnios' when he spoke to the crowds. Jesus spoke almost entirely in Aramaic, so 'αἰώνιος / aiōnios' is a Greek transalation of what He originally said in Aramaic, and that translation is again translated from Greek into English, so you and I can understand it in our own language. Something may have gotten lost along the way, in this two fold translation process.

However I think it is safe to assume that Jesus intended his hearers to understand that he was implying a long time rather than the blink of an eye, and God, (unlike Satan), does not punish without purpose, God's purpose being to encourage repentance and restoration, rather than destruction for revenge or for his personal pleasure. Bear in mind though that 'a long time' is a meaningless concept in an eternal environment, such as heaven or hell, so the term Jesus actually used in Aramaic may have been a metaphorical rather than a literal description of the actual interval involved.

Be that as it may Jesus was clearly intending us and his hearers to want to be included in the 'eternal life' queue rather than the 'eternal punishment' one, so we all know what we need to do about that, don't we.
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