Islam Discussions with Muslims about Islam

JosephZ

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Let's re-examine this part of the conversation:

My advice for Christians who have a heart for Muslims and want to share their faith with them or have the desire to have discussions with Muslims about Islam is to first get to know some Muslims in your community and learn from them. Be a good listener and let your curiosity drive the direction of your conversation with them.

There is no substitute to talking to real Muslims when it comes to learning about Islam and what they believe. If you are not aware of any Muslims in your community go online and find the nearest mosque or Islamic center. Go to a mosque in your area and ask the imam there to explain things like abrogation, taqiyya, and jihad. I can assure you the answers you get concerning these topics will be nothing like the videos and articles shared in this thread describe them.
Go ask an Imam :tearsofjoy::sweatsmile:

I've gone on those sites many time only to see Imams lie about core doctrines just to appease the questioner.
Muhammad is dead, so that leaves Muslims as the authority on Islam for today.
Are you for real? No muslim has authority over Muhammad. Just like no Christian has authority of Jesus Christ. Muhammad is the prophet of Islam and according to Islamic doctrine there are no prophets after him. You are insane if you believe muslims have authority.
Once again, Muhammad is dead. Since this is the case, Muslims are your best source for learning about what Islam teaches and what Muslims actually believe.

Unfortunately you believe that every person and every source (Muslim and non-Muslim) that disagrees with you is a liar:

Muhammad disagrees with your taqiyya produced articles so give it up.
go ask am Imam and get a load of taqiyya.
The only thing you represent here is taqiyya and how it deludes people into accepting the false narrative muslims want you to believe.
You simply have no understanding of Islam and have swallowed the taqiyya instead of a true understanding.
And that is taqiyya... Its never about what muslims tell us, its what Muhammad tells them.

You will never be able to learn anything with that attitude.

If you study Islam from non-Islamic sources you have learned nothing about Islam. If you want to learn any religion you have to learn it from their books and not from what others say.
I have learned from Islamic sources. I even gave you an example of an online Islamic school that I have recently taken courses from. I even challenged you to take a course from the online Islamic School and give a review of it.
Since you feel the sites I have visited since that time to learn about Islam are progressive, I challenge you to enroll in Dr. Philip's Islamic University Online and take the course titled "Contemporary Issues." After Taking the course, display your certificate, and then give an honest review.
Here is my certificate:
certificate cont issues.jpg

Will you accept the challenge?

Ibn Kathir is one of the all time best tafsir scholars and the top authority on Islamic tribulation and the portents of the hours.
I agree.

Salafi Islam is Mohammedan
Salafis follow a strict literal interpretation of the Qur'an. They are much like the Fundamental Independent Baptists in Christianity.

That being said, since you believe what you are sharing in this thread and others defines who is a real Muslim and who isn't, and since you believe in a strict and literal interpretation of the Qur'an, hadiths, and Sunnahs; do you believe that Fundamental Independent Baptists who follow a strict literal interpretation of the Bible are the only true Christians?

Muhammad is the father of Islamic terrorism.
Muhammad was a warrior just the same as King David and Joshua in the Bible. They all committed atrocities and instructed their soldiers to commit them against their enemies. If we look at Muhammad and his actions through a historical lens, while they appear bad by our modern perspective, they were normal for the point in history that he lived. In other words, he was no worse than anyone else who was in a position of leadership in his day whether they be Jew, Christian, Muslim, or Pagan.

When you are reading the Qur'an, haddiths, and Sunnah, you are reading them without putting things into a historical perspective. This is where you are in error. This is the same thing Wahhabists, extremists, and anti-Islamic propagandists do. More than 99% of Muslims today know to do this, just as they always have historically.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Once again, Muhammad is dead. Since this is the case, Muslims are your best source for learning about what Islam teaches and what Muslims actually believe.

You are nothing but a progressive troll being cheered only by agnostics. I already refuted your ignorance but you chose to ignore the facts.


When you are reading the Qur'an, haddiths, and Sunnah, you are reading them without putting things into a historical perspective. This is where you are in error. This is the same thing Wahhabists, extremists, and anti-Islamic propagandists do. More than 99% of Muslims today know to do this, just as they always have historically.

I already proved that jihad is for all time and a global effort. If you read the Torah God placed boundaries where the Hebrews were never to fight. The outcome was a little sliver of land about the size of New Hampshire. But Muhammad is considered the prophet sent to the world and his folliowers are instructed to kill all disbelievers until there are no disbelievers left and only muslim remain alive.
 
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Joyousperson

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Before the average Christian starts a conversation about the religious aspects of Islam I believe there are a few things they need to understand.

1st. Research the meaning of Abrogation as it pertains to Islam. Naskh (نسخ) is an Arabic word usually translated as "abrogation"; It is a term used in Islamic legal exegesis for seemingly contradictory material within, or between, the two primary sources of Islamic law: the Quran and the Sunna. But it is so much more and you need to toughly understand that so look up Abrogation in Islam from many sources and not just Islamic ones.

2nd. Research and understand the meaning of the Terms Kitman and Taqiya as they pertain to Islam.
Agree.

In addition, one critcal point to take note is the Quran is arranged generally in order of the size [number of verses] of the chapters [with a few exceptions.].
Thus one need to read the Quran in Chronological order [as least in the best approximation]
Chronological Order of the Qur'an - WikiIslam
to understand the two phases of Muhammad's recitation of the Quran, i.e.

1. The Meccan phase - the initial preaching in mild terms
2. The Medinian - reign of terror - after rejection by the pagans, Christians and Jews.
The chronological order will enable one to understand the effects of abrogation where the milder verses as 'sales' talk were used to convert the pagans, Christians and Jews. When Muhammad was rejected by his own people and others he got more aggressive and the earlier verses were abrogated in favor of the more latter aggressive verses.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Sahih al-Bukhari Book Number 73 Hadith Number 224 - Muflihun

the Islamic Hadith, though not the Koran, condemns the term "king of Kings", but that is the term applied to Christ victorious in revelation 19.

Christians shifted the Sabbath to Sunday. Commemorating Jesus' resurrection. Islam has shifted the Sabbath back to Friday. Such seems symbolically significant?
 
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Joyousperson

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When you are reading the Qur'an, haddiths, and Sunnah, you are reading them without putting things into a historical perspective. This is where you are in error. This is the same thing Wahhabists, extremists, and anti-Islamic propagandists do. More than 99% of Muslims today know to do this, just as they always have historically.
Generally, if there is any historical elements in the Quran, they are meant to represent and convey the principles and doctrines of Islam eternally.

The problem is, who on earth can decide which verse should be solely historical and which verses are to part of the doctrine of Islam.
Point is no human on earth can decide on the above, only Allah can judge. It is not likely Allah will appear anytime to confirm which is to be historical and which is to be part of the main doctrine of Islam.

The point is if 20% of Muslims were to insist the contended verses are not to be merely historical but be part of the main doctrine of Islam [not Quran perfected 5:3], that is 300 Muslims wanting all non-Muslims to be killed wherever possible. Note according to various polls the % is greater than 20% depending on which verses are deliberated.
Which human on earth can insist they are wrong? Answer is none.

This mean that these significant number of Muslims [> 300 million] will insist in obey Allah accordance to the Quran on a literally basis to ensure a greater assurance they will enter paradise with eternal life. The consequence of this unavoidable belief is the terrible evil and violent committed by these [SOME 300 million] Muslims with the possibility of exterminating the human species.

Thus the fault is from Islam and the way it is presented with vagueness in its practice. The Muslims are not to be blamed.

Note in contrast to Christianity which can also be interpreted historically if SOME Christians insist on such an approach. But the safety net here is Christianity as per the gospels has an overriding pacifist maxim of love everything, including enemies, neighbors, give the other cheeks, and the likes.

There is no overriding restraint but Allah in the Quran permit and condone ALL Muslims to kill non-Muslims under very vague conditions [even drawing of cartoons]. This permission is manifested in reality as evident by the real terror, evil and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims who are inspired by the Quran and Allah where no other humans can decide they are wrong, except Allah who will not be appearing until Judgment Day.

Thus the reality with the ideology of Islam is as long as Islam exists there will be SOME Muslims killing non-Muslims as a divine duty and no one can decide against their interpretation of the Quran literally [which I believe is correct].

Your ignorance of the truth of the matter and the dangers posed by the existence of the ideology of Islam in the above conditions is thus very irresponsible.
 
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Joyousperson

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I have learned from Islamic sources. I even gave you an example of an online Islamic school that I have recently taken courses from. I even challenged you to take a course from the online Islamic School and give a review of it.

Here is my certificate:
View attachment 256447
Will you accept the challenge?
The last person one can expect of an objective view of Islam is from a Muslim in general, worst still from a fundamentalist Muslim.
A Muslim has to be bias regardless so as to secure their place in paradise with eternal life.
A Muslim who critiqued Islam objectively could end up in hell.
Therefore your certificate is likely to be corrupted with biasness [confirmation bias].

I had suggested you research Islam and the Quran [the final authority] thoroughly yourself with an open mind and as objective as possible.

You'll need to read the Quran chronologically many times with attention to each verses very mindfully in the context of the whole of the Quran and Islam.

You insisted on the historical perspective.
The question to you, where in the Quran did Allah state the non-Muslims were good people thereafter.

Note:

60:4. ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels]. And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility [l-ʿadāwatu; enmity] and hate [BaGhDa] for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah ..​

How can the 'forever' be historical??

5:64 ..He bestoweth as He will. [Allah said] That [revelation -Quran] which hath been revealed unto thee [Muhammad] from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy [TGHY; tughyan; rebellion] and disbelief [kufr] of many of them [Jews], and We have cast among them [Jews] enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. [Say Muhammad] As often as they [Jews] light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their [Jews] effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.
How can this 'enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection' be historical??

Note there are hundreds of other verses where I can corner and checkmate on you that the hatred and enmity against the infidels, kuffar including Christians and Jews is not historical but till day of resurrection and eternity.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Sahih al-Bukhari Book Number 73 Hadith Number 224 - Muflihun

the Islamic Hadith, though not the Koran, condemns the term "king of Kings", but that is the term applied to Christ victorious in revelation 19.

Christians shifted the Sabbath to Sunday. Commemorating Jesus' resurrection. Islam has shifted the Sabbath back to Friday. Such seems symbolically significant?
I agree with the first thing you said about the hadith. I have the full 9 volume Sahih Al-Bukhari collection and can verify that what you say is true.

But I strongly disagree with your claim that someone changed the Sabbath to Sunday and can historically prove that is false. Though, however, this topic is not about the Sabbath day and I would appreciate if you would stay on topic.
 
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JosephZ

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The last person one can expect of an objective view of Islam is from a Muslim in general, worst still from a fundamentalist Muslim.
A Muslim has to be bias regardless so as to secure their place in paradise with eternal life.
A Muslim who critiqued Islam objectively could end up in hell.
Therefore your certificate is likely to be corrupted with biasness [confirmation bias].
If you had an electrical problem who would you go to, a plumber or an electrician?

The reason I suggested that the OP take this particular course is because it addresses some of the same subjects he is discussing here. The founder of this school and the professor of that course is a Sunni and follower of the Salafi movement. He was even arrested here in Davao City and banned from returning to the Philippines because of his suspected ties to extremists and he was an unindicted co-conspirator to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

With all that said, even this Islamic teacher doesn't teach the extreme form of Islam that the OP is claiming is true Islam. How can what the OP be saying be true if a professor like Dr. Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist, doesn't teach this way? Better yet, why do more than 99% of Muslims reject what the OP is saying in this thread and have done so historically for more than 1,400 years?

The answer is: The OP and the Islamic extremists are wrong.

I had suggested you research Islam and the Quran [the final authority] thoroughly yourself with an open mind and as objective as possible.
I've been studying Islam since you were 10 years old and while I may not know every minor detail, I do have a pretty thorough understanding of Islam and what Muslims believe.

Note:

60:4. ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels]. And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility [l-ʿadāwatu; enmity] and hate [BaGhDa] for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah ..
This is the perfect example of taking a single verse out of context and making it say something it was never intended to say. In this case you didn't even quote the entire verse. Here it is in its entirety in a clear English translation with the portion you shared in blue:

You [Muslims] have had an excellent example in Abraham and those with him [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them]; when they said to their people , “We [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] are done with you [Pagans and idol worshipers], and what you worship apart from God. We [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] denounce you. Enmity and hatred has surfaced between us [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] and you [Pagans and idol worshipers], forever, until you believe in God alone.” Except for the words of Abraham to his father, “I will ask forgiveness for you, though I have no power from God to do anything for you.” “Our Lord, in You we trust, and to You we repent, and to You is the ultimate resort. (Qur'an 60-4)

Here is a parallel verse from the Qur'an that shows what Abraham said to his people:

Abraham, when he said to his people, “Worship God, and fear Him. That is better for you, if you only knew. You worship idols besides God, and you fabricate falsehoods. Those you worship, instead of God, cannot provide you with livelihood. So seek your livelihood from God, and worship Him, and thank Him. To Him you will be returned.” (Qur'an 29:16-17)

"We" in that verse is referring to the followers of the religion of Abraham before the time of Muhammad (Christians and Jews). Not Muslims.

See how important it is to not take things out of context? It changes the whole meaning. Here the Qur'an is telling Muslims that those who follow the religion of Abraham before them were a good example as they should denounce and have nothing to do with idol worship and pagans.

How can the 'forever' be historical??

5:64 ..He bestoweth as He will. [Allah said] That [revelation -Quran] which hath been revealed unto thee [Muhammad] from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy [TGHY; tughyan; rebellion] and disbelief [kufr] of many of them [Jews], and We have cast among them [Jews] enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. [Say Muhammad] As often as they [Jews] light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their [Jews] effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.
How can this 'enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection' be historical??
Not everything is historical and it's very easy to differentiate between content that is meant to be taken as historical and what is meant for Muslims to practice today if you read the entire Qur'an. If pick and choose verses you can make the Qur-an say whatever you want it to. This is what the extremists do, and this is what anti-Islamic propagandists have been doing since just after 9/11 in an attempt to make people in the west hate Muslims.

Once again, you have quoted a single verse taken out of context. Let's add the surrounding verses:

63. Why do the rabbis and the priests not prevent them from speaking sinfully and from consuming forbidden wealth? Evil is what they have been doing.

64. The Jews say, “God’s hand is tied.” It is their hands that are tied, and they are cursed for what they say. In fact, His hands are outstretched; He gives as He wills. Certainly, what was revealed to you from your Lord will increase many of them in defiance and blasphemy. And We placed between them enmity and hatred, until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, God extinguishes it. And they strive to spread corruption on earth. God does not love the corrupters.

65. Had the People of the Scripture believed and been righteous, We would have remitted their sins, and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss.

66. Had they observed the Torah, and the Gospel, and what was revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed amply from above them, and from beneath their feet. Among them is a moderate community, but evil is what many of them are doing.

67. O Messenger, convey what was revealed to you from your Lord. But if you do not, then you would not have delivered His message. And God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.

68. Say, “O People of the Scripture! You have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is revealed to you from your Lord.” But what is revealed to you from your Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief, so do not be sorry for the disbelieving people.

69. Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and does what is right—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve.

First of all, the verse is not talking about all Jews and Christians, just those who are disobedient. Secondly, even those who are disobedient have a chance to avoid condemnation if they choose to uphold the Torah and the gospel.

Note there are hundreds of other verses where I can corner and checkmate on you that the hatred and enmity against the infidels, kuffar including Christians and Jews is not historical but till day of resurrection and eternity.
I already showed you where you are in error with the above two verses, so it's highly likely that your interpretations and the intended meanings of the hundreds of others you have a concern about are also incorrect. I don't have time to address each and every one of them. And while you may disagree, your best option is to find a Muslim or two in your community and ask them to explain those verses. A Muslim is going to be your best source to finding out what Islam teaches and what Muslims actually believe. You could also enroll in some Islamic Studies courses at a reputable school if it's that important to you.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I agree with the first thing you said about the hadith. I have the full 9 volume Sahih Al-Bukhari collection and can verify that what you say is true.

But I strongly disagree with your claim that someone changed the Sabbath to Sunday and can historically prove that is false. Though, however, this topic is not about the Sabbath day and I would appreciate if you would stay on topic.
Jews observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week Saturday. Christians observe the Lord's day on the first day of the week Sunday. Muslims observe a Sabbath like day on Friday.

So, in practice, the observation of a Sabbath like day of rest move forward. One day under Christianity and then backwards 2 days under Islam.

Been that way for centuries, even millenia.

Does happen that moving the Sabbath observation back 2 days? Makes me think of the Masoretic text? Which moves the biblical chronology back 2000 years = two biblical days.
 
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FEZZILLA

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I've been studying Islam since you were 10 years old and while I may not know every minor detail, I do have a pretty thorough understanding of Islam and what Muslims believe.

Once again, you have quoted a single verse taken out of context. Let's add the surrounding verses:

69. Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and does what is right—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve.

First of all, the verse is not talking about all Jews and Christians, just those who are disobedient. Secondly, even those who are disobedient have a chance to avoid condemnation if they choose to uphold the Torah and the gospel.

Noble Qur'an 2:62, The Cow (Madinah Period)

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve*."

*footnote: "(V.2:62) This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur'an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol.1, Page 323) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85: "And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be one of the losers." [i.e. after the coming of Prophet Muhammad on earth, no other religion except Islam, will be accepted from anyone]."

Noble Qur'an 2:109, The Cow (Madinah Period)

"Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even, after the truth (that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command*. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things."

*footnote: "(V.2:109) The provision of this verse has been abrogated by the (V.9:29). (Tafsir At-Tabari)"

Noble Qur'an 5:69, The Table Spread With Food (Madinah Period)

"Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah, in His Messenger Muhammad, and all that was revealed to him from Allah), and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, --- whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." *

*footnote: "(V.5:69) This verse (V.5:69) and (Verse 2:62) should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn 'Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol.1, Page 323) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the (V.3:85). And after the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, no other religion except Islam will be accepted from anyone."

Noble Qur'an 8:61, The Spoils of War (Madinah Period)

"But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Aisha Bewley translation): Qur'an 8:61

"If they incline to peace (read as both silm and salm), you too incline to it and make a treaty with them -- Ibn 'Abbas said that this was abrogated by the "Ayat of the sword". Mujahid said that it is particular to the People of the Book since it was revealed about the Banu Qurayza---and put your trust in Allah. He is the All-Knowing of your actions."

Lots of abrogated verses in the Qur'an.
 
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Joyousperson

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If you had an electrical problem who would you go to, a plumber or an electrician?

The reason I suggested that the OP take this particular course is because it addresses some of the same subjects he is discussing here. The founder of this school and the professor of that course is a Sunni and follower of the Salafi movement. He was even arrested here in Davao City and banned from returning to the Philippines because of his suspected ties to extremists and he was an unindicted co-conspirator to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

With all that said, even this Islamic teacher doesn't teach the extreme form of Islam that the OP is claiming is true Islam. How can what the OP be saying be true if a professor like Dr. Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist, doesn't teach this way? Better yet, why do more than 99% of Muslims reject what the OP is saying in this thread and have done so historically for more than 1,400 years?

The answer is: The OP and the Islamic extremists are wrong.


I've been studying Islam since you were 10 years old and while I may not know every minor detail, I do have a pretty thorough understanding of Islam and what Muslims believe.


This is the perfect example of taking a single verse out of context and making it say something it was never intended to say. In this case you didn't even quote the entire verse. Here it is in its entirety in a clear English translation with the portion you shared in blue:

You [Muslims] have had an excellent example in Abraham and those with him [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them]; when they said to their people , “We [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] are done with you [Pagans and idol worshipers], and what you worship apart from God. We [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] denounce you. Enmity and hatred has surfaced between us [Followers of the religion of Abraham before them] and you [Pagans and idol worshipers], forever, until you believe in God alone.” Except for the words of Abraham to his father, “I will ask forgiveness for you, though I have no power from God to do anything for you.” “Our Lord, in You we trust, and to You we repent, and to You is the ultimate resort. (Qur'an 60-4)

Here is a parallel verse from the Qur'an that shows what Abraham said to his people:

Abraham, when he said to his people, “Worship God, and fear Him. That is better for you, if you only knew. You worship idols besides God, and you fabricate falsehoods. Those you worship, instead of God, cannot provide you with livelihood. So seek your livelihood from God, and worship Him, and thank Him. To Him you will be returned.” (Qur'an 29:16-17)

"We" in that verse is referring to the followers of the religion of Abraham before the time of Muhammad (Christians and Jews). Not Muslims.

See how important it is to not take things out of context? It changes the whole meaning. Here the Qur'an is telling Muslims that those who follow the religion of Abraham before them were a good example as they should denounce and have nothing to do with idol worship and pagans.


Not everything is historical and it's very easy to differentiate between content that is meant to be taken as historical and what is meant for Muslims to practice today if you read the entire Qur'an. If pick and choose verses you can make the Qur-an say whatever you want it to. This is what the extremists do, and this is what anti-Islamic propagandists have been doing since just after 9/11 in an attempt to make people in the west hate Muslims.

Once again, you have quoted a single verse taken out of context. Let's add the surrounding verses:

63. Why do the rabbis and the priests not prevent them from speaking sinfully and from consuming forbidden wealth? Evil is what they have been doing.

64. The Jews say, “God’s hand is tied.” It is their hands that are tied, and they are cursed for what they say. In fact, His hands are outstretched; He gives as He wills. Certainly, what was revealed to you from your Lord will increase many of them in defiance and blasphemy. And We placed between them enmity and hatred, until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, God extinguishes it. And they strive to spread corruption on earth. God does not love the corrupters.

65. Had the People of the Scripture believed and been righteous, We would have remitted their sins, and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss.

66. Had they observed the Torah, and the Gospel, and what was revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed amply from above them, and from beneath their feet. Among them is a moderate community, but evil is what many of them are doing.

67. O Messenger, convey what was revealed to you from your Lord. But if you do not, then you would not have delivered His message. And God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.

68. Say, “O People of the Scripture! You have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is revealed to you from your Lord.” But what is revealed to you from your Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief, so do not be sorry for the disbelieving people.

69. Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and does what is right—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve.

First of all, the verse is not talking about all Jews and Christians, just those who are disobedient. Secondly, even those who are disobedient have a chance to avoid condemnation if they choose to uphold the Torah and the gospel.


I already showed you where you are in error with the above two verses, so it's highly likely that your interpretations and the intended meanings of the hundreds of others you have a concern about are also incorrect. I don't have time to address each and every one of them. And while you may disagree, your best option is to find a Muslim or two in your community and ask them to explain those verses. A Muslim is going to be your best source to finding out what Islam teaches and what Muslims actually believe. You could also enroll in some Islamic Studies courses at a reputable school if it's that important to you.
Your above argument re the quoted verses is a strawman

The main argument here is you claimed the points mentioned are historical, i.e. the Quran is a way is historical book. This is an insult to Allah.

The verses I picked is to prove your are wrong where I focus on the words 'forever' and till resurrection, thus cannot be historical in relation to hatred and enmity towards infidels.
This is why I quoted only the relevant part related to 'time' from the long verse.

This counter your point that the evil elements from Allah in the Quran are historical. Instead I have shown they are principles for eternity.

My point is not focused on who are hated and enmity by Allah which in a way is not a quality of a moral God.

At I had pointed our there are more than 3400++ verses are directed at non-Muslims [Jews, Christians, and others] in various DEGREES of antagonistic mode which as a doctrinal principle is effective till eternity.

If I were to argue Allah is hateful to Jews, Christian, and all other non-Muslim I would be arguing and justifying my point differently. The point is there are many verses where Allah indicated a positive attitude toward Jews, Christians [people of the book] and Sabians. There was an occasion where Muhammad put his hand on the Torah to make judgment.

I have mentioned, in general, that is because Muhammad approached the pagans, Christians and Jews positively when he first tried to convince them to convert to Islam. But later when he was rejected almost all in Mecca, he turned violent against them when he was in Medina. To justify this point more specifically and precisely I would have to take the whole of the Quranic 6236 verses into perspective.

If you had an electrical problem who would you go to, a plumber or an electrician?
This a another strawman.

This is not about a problem but regarding knowledge and opinions about some thing.
Analogically, this is about Electrical Engineering, where we don't need an electrician to teach us about Electrical Engineering. Rather we go to college to attend a degree in Electrical Engineering with practicals thrown in.

Religion is a one issue that is heavily entangled with psychology and emotion, note even drawing of cartoons can trigger a mob to kill. Thus totally different from Electrical Engineering and electrical problems.

Agree, one can learn something Islam from Muslims who are serious in their religion. But because of the heavy emotional elements what is taught are fraught with confirmation bias.
No religious believers will ever give a balanced view of their religion, the normal believer will always be bias towards their religion to feel confident of the promised salvation.

Therefore the only information with integrity is one that is epistemological and objective with various qualifications.
 
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JosephZ

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The main argument here is you claimed the points mentioned are historical, i.e. the Quran is a way is historical book. This is an insult to Allah.

The verses I picked is to prove your are wrong where I focus on the words 'forever' and till resurrection, thus cannot be historical in relation to hatred and enmity towards infidels.

This is why I quoted only the relevant part related to 'time' from the long verse.

This counter your point that the evil elements from Allah in the Quran are historical. Instead I have shown they are principles for eternity.

The main argument here is you claimed the points mentioned are historical, i.e. the Quran is a way is historical book. This is an insult to Allah.

The verses I picked is to prove your are wrong where I focus on the words 'forever' and till resurrection, thus cannot be historical in relation to hatred and enmity towards infidels.

This is why I quoted only the relevant part related to 'time' from the long verse.

This counter your point that the evil elements from Allah in the Quran are historical. Instead I have shown they are principles for eternity.

My point is not focused on who are hated and enmity by Allah which in a way is not a quality of a moral God.

If I were to argue Allah is hateful to Jews, Christian, and all other non-Muslim I would be arguing and justifying my point differently.
Before Jumping into this thread your argument was that Muslims are commanded to hate non-Muslims, not to befriend non-Muslims, and to kill non-Muslims. When I was talking about the Qur'an being a historical book, I was talking about how the verses you have been quoting in your argument to support the claims that Muslims are commanded to hate non-Muslims, were taken out of historical context. When you jumped into this thread after the other two were closed, I was still continuing the debate we were having in the others.

Below are some examples of what you were saying in the other threads before they were shut down:

"The Wahabbists and Salafists are very serious scholars of the Quran and no scholar will dare to misinterpret the Quran, else they will sin and go to hell. In addition who on Earth can judge them to be wrong, other than Allah who is not around to judge until J-Day.

Note this argument; 100% Proof ISIS is True ISLAM & Western Muslims are FAKE"

"Muslims are commanded to dominate everyone else or to kill all if possible"

"You can argue with all you want, but you cannot change the reality of the intrinsic hate for Jews within 1:7 and the loads of similar anti-semitic verses in the Quran.
I quoted the verse where they are not suppose to be intimate friends with non-Muslims. If they do not comply and have befriended non-Muslims, then they have sinned. There are many verses commanding Muslims not be general friends and associates of non-Muslims. These are words and command of Allah verifiable in the Quran."

"To be genuine Muslims they have no choice but to obey the commands of Allah and Muhammad to the 't' otherwise their merit and qualification to paradise and eternal life is compromised.

Not only with reference to friends but also to steer away from parents and relatives [read the below carefully];

58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who

oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger:even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
As for such, He [Allah] hath written faith upon their [Muslims] hearts and hath strengthened them [Muslims] with a Spirit

[ethos] from Him, and He will bring them [Muslims] into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they [Muslims] will abide.

Allah is well pleased with them [Muslims], and they [Muslims] are well pleased with Him. They [Muslims] are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party [the Muslims] who are the successful [l-muf'liḥūna]?

The above command that Muslims cannot love their father, sons, bethren or clan if they are non-believers [opposing Allah and Muhammad]. Their passage to paradise with eternal life is under threat if they do not obey the above."

"The theme of hating the infidel is developed further in a discussion of loyalty and friendship in a Fifth Grade textbook on Monotheism, Hadith, Jurisprudence and Qur’anic Recitation. Students are instructed to be loyal to and befriend only other “monotheist believers” It teaches:

1.• “It is not permitted to be a loyal friend to those who oppose God and His Prophet.”71

2• “Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot be loyal to those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives.”72

3• “It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.” 73

4• “A Muslim, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy in religion.”74

I quoted from the Quran to support point 1 above;

3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatanن ط ب ًﺔَﻧﺎطَﺑِ ] others [infidels] than your own
folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum ت ن ع مﱡﺗﻧِﻋَ ]
ْ
you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations [AYW; ayah] if ye will understand.

So what they are saying are merely complying with Allah's word in the Quran."

"1.The Quran is the final authority of Islam.

2.Therefore ALL Muslims must obey Allah's words to enabled them to be

saved with eternal life in paradise.

My challenge is for you to show all the Muslims [if they are reasonable educated] within the community you are in, verse 3:118, where Allah commanded all Muslims NOT to take non-believers as intimate friends, i.e. never be friendly to infidels.

Ask them for the reasons why the are going against Allah's words and are friendly to you, thus risking their merit for salvation?

Note 3:118 is not the only verse, I have list of 3,400 verses that are antagonistic to non-believers, i.e. infidels, kafir, kuffar."


From the examples of what you were saying in the other threads, it's clear that you are saying that Muslims are commanded to hate and even kill non-Muslims for all time. This is what I was replying to when I said the Qur'an is a historical book and you have to put everything into historical context when reading it. So I will repeat again, not everything is historical and it's very easy to differentiate between content that is meant to be taken as historical and what is meant for Muslims to practice today if you read the Qur'an in it's entirity.

Of course God/Allah is going to hold on to his position to those who are disobedient until Judgement day. This is the same thing the Bible teaches.

“The LORD preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy” (Psalm 145:20) “the wicked will not stand in the judgment” (Psalm 1:5) “Depart from me, all you workers of evil” (Luke 13:27)

The Bible, along with the Torah is where Muhammad got this concept from.

You are moving the goal posts. In the beginning you were arguing that Muslims were commanded to hold animosity towards non-Muslims for all time which is not true at all.


The Qur'an doesn't teach Muslims to hate Jews and Christians, nor does it teach them to kill non-Muslims simply for not being a Muslim.

As for Muslims not befriending non-Muslims or being commanded to kill non-Muslims just because they fail to follow Islam, that's nonsense. If you take verse out of context, sure you can make it sound like that's the case, but if your read the verses around them, you will always find that there are conditions.

As for those who have not fought against you for your religion, nor expelled you from your homes, God does not prohibit you from dealing with them kindly and equitably. God loves the equitable.

But God prohibits you from befriending those who fought against you over your religion, and expelled you from your homes, and aided in your expulsion. Whoever takes them for friends—these are the wrongdoers.
(Qur'an 60:8-9)

O you who believe! Do not befriend those who take your religion in mockery and as a sport, be they from among those who were given the Scripture before you, or the disbelievers. And obey God, if you are believers.

When you call to the prayer, they take it as a joke and a trifle. That is because they are people who do not reason.
(Qur'an 5:67-58)

As you can see from the verses above, there are conditions as to who Muslims can't be friends with.

If Muslims are taught to hate non-Muslims, not befriend them, or to kill them, how could they be allowed to marry them?

Today all good things are made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste believing women, and chaste women from the people who were given the Scripture before you, provided you give them their dowries, and take them in marriage, not in adultery, nor as mistresses. But whoever rejects faith, his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers. (Qur'an 5:5)

Now let's look at a verse where Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims:

Qur'an 9:4 says: "When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush."

Since you believe Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims for all time, why aren't Muslims going around killing every non-Muslim in sight once the sacred months have passed each year as the verse above commands? If what you believe were to be true, history would have shown Muslims attacking non-Muslim in every corner of the globe at this time each and every year.

If you look at the verses surrounding any verse in the Qur'an that mentions Muslims killing or fighting against non-Muslims, you will find that the hostilities are allowed only in self-defense and only against those who actively fight against Muslims. Once the enemy stops fighting them or offers peace, then the fighting stops.

Throughout history until today Muslims have rejected the doctrine of sects like Wahhabism which call for hatred and animosity towards non-Muslims. It's not possible that these hard-line fundamentalist teachings represent true Islam if greater than 99% of the world's Muslims aren't practicing it. To say that the less than 1% of those claiming to be Muslims who practice violent jihad and carry out attacks on innocent civilians are correct and represent the true teachings of Islam isn't even worth consideration.
 
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Joyousperson

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Before Jumping into this thread your argument was that Muslims are commanded to hate non-Muslims, not to befriend non-Muslims, and to kill non-Muslims. When I was talking about the Qur'an being a historical book, I was talking about how the verses you have been quoting in your argument to support the claims that Muslims are commanded to hate non-Muslims, were taken out of historical context. When you jumped into this thread after the other two were closed, I was still continuing the debate we were having in the others.

Below are some examples of what you were saying in the other threads before they were shut down:

"The Wahabbists and Salafists are very serious scholars of the Quran and no scholar will dare to misinterpret the Quran, else they will sin and go to hell. In addition who on Earth can judge them to be wrong, other than Allah who is not around to judge until J-Day.

Note this argument; 100% Proof ISIS is True ISLAM & Western Muslims are FAKE"

"Muslims are commanded to dominate everyone else or to kill all if possible"

"You can argue with all you want, but you cannot change the reality of the intrinsic hate for Jews within 1:7 and the loads of similar anti-semitic verses in the Quran.
I quoted the verse where they are not suppose to be intimate friends with non-Muslims. If they do not comply and have befriended non-Muslims, then they have sinned. There are many verses commanding Muslims not be general friends and associates of non-Muslims. These are words and command of Allah verifiable in the Quran."

"To be genuine Muslims they have no choice but to obey the commands of Allah and Muhammad to the 't' otherwise their merit and qualification to paradise and eternal life is compromised.

Not only with reference to friends but also to steer away from parents and relatives [read the below carefully];

58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who

oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger:even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
As for such, He [Allah] hath written faith upon their [Muslims] hearts and hath strengthened them [Muslims] with a Spirit

[ethos] from Him, and He will bring them [Muslims] into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they [Muslims] will abide.

Allah is well pleased with them [Muslims], and they [Muslims] are well pleased with Him. They [Muslims] are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party [the Muslims] who are the successful [l-muf'liḥūna]?

The above command that Muslims cannot love their father, sons, bethren or clan if they are non-believers [opposing Allah and Muhammad]. Their passage to paradise with eternal life is under threat if they do not obey the above."

"The theme of hating the infidel is developed further in a discussion of loyalty and friendship in a Fifth Grade textbook on Monotheism, Hadith, Jurisprudence and Qur’anic Recitation. Students are instructed to be loyal to and befriend only other “monotheist believers” It teaches:

1.• “It is not permitted to be a loyal friend to those who oppose God and His Prophet.”71

2• “Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot be loyal to those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives.”72

3• “It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.” 73

4• “A Muslim, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy in religion.”74

I quoted from the Quran to support point 1 above;

3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatanن ط ب ًﺔَﻧﺎطَﺑِ ] others [infidels] than your own
folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum ت ن ع مﱡﺗﻧِﻋَ ]
ْ
you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations [AYW; ayah] if ye will understand.

So what they are saying are merely complying with Allah's word in the Quran."

"1.The Quran is the final authority of Islam.

2.Therefore ALL Muslims must obey Allah's words to enabled them to be

saved with eternal life in paradise.

My challenge is for you to show all the Muslims [if they are reasonable educated] within the community you are in, verse 3:118, where Allah commanded all Muslims NOT to take non-believers as intimate friends, i.e. never be friendly to infidels.

Ask them for the reasons why the are going against Allah's words and are friendly to you, thus risking their merit for salvation?

Note 3:118 is not the only verse, I have list of 3,400 verses that are antagonistic to non-believers, i.e. infidels, kafir, kuffar."


From the examples of what you were saying in the other threads, it's clear that you are saying that Muslims are commanded to hate and even kill non-Muslims for all time. This is what I was replying to when I said the Qur'an is a historical book and you have to put everything into historical context when reading it. So I will repeat again, not everything is historical and it's very easy to differentiate between content that is meant to be taken as historical and what is meant for Muslims to practice today if you read the Qur'an in it's entirity.

Of course God/Allah is going to hold on to his position to those who are disobedient until Judgement day. This is the same thing the Bible teaches.

“The LORD preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy” (Psalm 145:20) “the wicked will not stand in the judgment” (Psalm 1:5) “Depart from me, all you workers of evil” (Luke 13:27)

The Bible, along with the Torah is where Muhammad got this concept from.

You are moving the goal posts. In the beginning you were arguing that Muslims were commanded to hold animosity towards non-Muslims for all time which is not true at all.


The Qur'an doesn't teach Muslims to hate Jews and Christians, nor does it teach them to kill non-Muslims simply for not being a Muslim.

As for Muslims not befriending non-Muslims or being commanded to kill non-Muslims just because they fail to follow Islam, that's nonsense. If you take verse out of context, sure you can make it sound like that's the case, but if your read the verses around them, you will always find that there are conditions.

As for those who have not fought against you for your religion, nor expelled you from your homes, God does not prohibit you from dealing with them kindly and equitably. God loves the equitable.

But God prohibits you from befriending those who fought against you over your religion, and expelled you from your homes, and aided in your expulsion. Whoever takes them for friends—these are the wrongdoers.
(Qur'an 60:8-9)

O you who believe! Do not befriend those who take your religion in mockery and as a sport, be they from among those who were given the Scripture before you, or the disbelievers. And obey God, if you are believers.

When you call to the prayer, they take it as a joke and a trifle. That is because they are people who do not reason.
(Qur'an 5:67-58)

As you can see from the verses above, there are conditions as to who Muslims can't be friends with.

If Muslims are taught to hate non-Muslims, not befriend them, or to kill them, how could they be allowed to marry them?

Today all good things are made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste believing women, and chaste women from the people who were given the Scripture before you, provided you give them their dowries, and take them in marriage, not in adultery, nor as mistresses. But whoever rejects faith, his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers. (Qur'an 5:5)

Now let's look at a verse where Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims:

Qur'an 9:4 says: "When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush."

Since you believe Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims for all time, why aren't Muslims going around killing every non-Muslim in sight once the sacred months have passed each year as the verse above commands? If what you believe were to be true, history would have shown Muslims attacking non-Muslim in every corner of the globe at this time each and every year.

If you look at the verses surrounding any verse in the Qur'an that mentions Muslims killing or fighting against non-Muslims, you will find that the hostilities are allowed only in self-defense and only against those who actively fight against Muslims. Once the enemy stops fighting them or offers peace, then the fighting stops.

Throughout history until today Muslims have rejected the doctrine of sects like Wahhabism which call for hatred and animosity towards non-Muslims. It's not possible that these hard-line fundamentalist teachings represent true Islam if greater than 99% of the world's Muslims aren't practicing it. To say that the less than 1% of those claiming to be Muslims who practice violent jihad and carry out attacks on innocent civilians are correct and represent the true teachings of Islam isn't even worth consideration.
To put the whole matter into perspective note this [mentioned before];

1. DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with an existential crisis,

2. The most effective strategy to deal with the existential crisis is at of a promise of salvation to soothe the existential pains with the assurance of eternal life.

3. To be assured of the promise of salvation, believers MUST enter into a covenant with God/Allah to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms in the holy texts.

4. The covenanted terms of the ideology of Islam contain loads of evil and violent elements, while that of Christianity is purely pacifist.

5. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil and violent acts.

6. Appx 20% of all humans are born with an active evil tendency.​

The point is ALL Muslims are subjected to the above conditions [1-6] and thus the reality is SOME [from a pool of 300 million!!!] Muslims had committed and will continue to commit terrible evil and violent acts [4] to be assured of a place in paradise with eternal life as a balm for the existential crisis [1]. This is a fact and the evidence is glaring.

Another fact is those Muslims from the pool of 300 million will not give a damn with the 'historical' factor.
There is no mention of the historical factor to be considered in the Quran nor it is implied by Allah.
Whatever is in the Quran is to convey the eternal principles of the ideology of Islam. Note the story of Noah and Lot and all other Biblical stories which represent the ills of homosexuality and how it should be dealt with. This is not history but convey the essential principles.

It would be ridiculous for Allah to waste the space of 6236 verses for historical consideration.
It is NEVER purely historical, even if it is, who is to decide which should be purely historical and which is not. Only Allah can decide but not fallible Muslims who are fallible.
The verses [or some] are NEVER meant to be purely confined to history.

The verses on war, violence and other evils are to exemplify the eternal principles a Muslim must adopt to protect Islam and thus reinforced his salvation to avoid the terrible pains of the existential crisis.

You keep bring up Wahabbism which is a straw man and toothless.

A Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah to comply with the covenanted term stipulated within the Quran [with support from other holy texts].
What is important is the compliance to fulfill one's obligation within the covenant, IT DOES NOT MATTER, WHAT NAME THE MUSLIMS LABELS THEMSELVES IN TERM OF GROUPS OR INDIVIDUALS.

At this point is not effective to argue based on individual verses.
We need to argue within the whole context of the Quran and Islam.
As I had argued whatever that is seem to be positive or considerate to non-Muslims, they are abrogated or overriden with the overall theme of the ideology of Islam to dominate or where possible get rid of all non-Muslims so that they can feel secure of their salvation [without threats from others].

Note I mentioned before, there are 3400++ of the 6236 verses, i.e. 55% within the Quran that are antagonistic [of a range of degrees] towards the non-believers which culminate in an essence of hate which is adopted by a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims who has turned such hatred into real evil and violent acts since 1400 years ago till now.
How do you defend such a theme of the extreme case of "us versus them"?

The above is like the news of the Left media where every mentioned regarding Trump is loaded with elements of hatred, condemnations and all sort of negatives. Fortunately this hatred is not linked to any religious based existential crisis, otherwise the evil and violence on the Republicans would be extensive. Even then there are already violence against republicans, e.g. from Antifa and shootings of Republican representatives.

The 55% of hatred against non-Muslim is like the continual hatred thrown at 'them' in the case of "us versus them" as in tribalism that eventually end up with genocides of the 'others'.

How do you defend the above 55% of verses from the core authority of the ideology of Islam directed at non-believers.

Note I had argued, the majority of Muslims are good not because they are good Muslims but rather they are progressive good human beings.

If any of these good Muslims are made aware that to be more securely saved, they have to comply with the evil laden elements, e.g. greater hatred for non-Muslims they will be triggered with hate for the non-believers and this could up they turning to be suicide bombers which in reality is happening.

It is fortunately Christianity is a well grounded pacifist religion.
Now what if your Christian God had asked you to kill non-Christian or your son [like Abraham] with the understanding you will have greater chance of salvation.
Re point 1-6, I bet you will obey your God to kill non-Christians or even your son for your own selfish instinctual salvation.

The unfortunate point is, with Islam there is no overriding pacifist maxim of peace with others. Rather the ideology of Islam has inherent evil and violent elements that inspire Muslims to commit evil and violence to gain greater assurance of salvation to paradise with eternal life.

As I had stated, you need to read the Quran many times (>100) critically and objectively with a very open mind. I believe in your reading of the Quran you would have missed the 500 pounds Gorilla due to attention blindness. Note this;

 
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Taqiyya is real Islamic doctrine and I will use Sunni references only to prove it for you.

Noble Qur'an 3:28, The Family of Imran (Madinah Period)

"Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return."


Other Translations:

Yusuf Ali,

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah."

Arberry Koran,

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends, rather than the believers -- for whoso does that belongs not to God in anything -- unless you have a fear of them. God warns you that You beware of Him, and unto God is the homecoming."

Tafsir (The exegesis of the Qur'an)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

لَا يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَمَنْ يَفْعَلْ ذَٰلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً ۗ وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ ۗ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ٢٨

28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers
Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَىْءٍ﴾
(And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way) meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ عَدُوِّى وَعَدُوَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ تُلْقُونَ إِلَيْهِمْ بِالْمَوَدَّةِ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them), until,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْهُ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ السَّبِيلِ﴾
(And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.) ﴿60:1﴾. Allah said,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَجْعَلُواْ للَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ سُلْطَاناً مُّبِيناً ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves) ﴿4:144﴾, and,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.) ﴿5:51﴾.

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,

﴿وَالَّذينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ إِلاَّ تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِى الاٌّرْضِ وَفَسَادٌ كَبِيرٌ ﴾
(And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.) ﴿8:73﴾.

Allah said next,

﴿إِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً﴾
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said,

﴿وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ﴾
(And Allah warns you against Himself.) meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends,

﴿وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ﴾
(And to Allah is the final return) meaning, the return is to Him and He will reward or punish each person according to their deeds.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - English [3. Ali-Imran - Verse: 28]
_______________________________________________________________
The Hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Vol.6, Hadith [6633] 101 - (2605),

"Chapter 27. Prohibition Of Lying, And What Is Permitted Thereof
[6633] 101 - (2605) Humaid bin 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf narrated that his mother, Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait -- who was one of the first Muhajir women who swore alligiance to the Prophet--told him that she heard the Messenger of Allah say: "He is not a liar who reconciles between people, saying good things and conveying good things."
Ibn Shihab said (in his Hadith that she said): "I did not hear of any concession being granted concerning anything that people call lies except in three cases: War, reconciling among people, and what a man says to his wife or a woman says to her husband."

Sahih Muslim, Vol.2 (Summarized edition), Book 55, Chapter 49, hadith 1810,

"(49) CHAPTER. Permissible lies
1810. Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abu Mu'ait (who was from the first emigrants) narrated that she heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "He who makes peace between people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
Ibn Shihab said: "I heard nothing where what people say can be permissible as lies except in three: war, to make people reconcile and a man's talk to make his wife happy."
In another narration: Umm Kulthum said: "I heard nothing permissible as a lie except these three."

This covers all relations with non-muslims. For Islam is a "war against all" and muslims are constantly at war with fitnah (i.e., unbelief).
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Mass copy and past without understanding
 
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Joyousperson

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The point is very clear if you understand the concept of Taqiyya within Islam. The long list of references are listed the existence of this concept within Islam.

Taqiyya permit a Muslim to lie to non-Muslims for Islam's sake and interests.
Tagiyya is more prominent under the Shia's doctrines but is also promoted in Sunni Islam as supported by the many references above to reinforce the point.

What is your counter point and greater understanding?
 
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Yytz6

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The point is very clear if you understand the concept of Taqiyya within Islam. The long list of references are listed the existence of this concept within Islam.

Taqiyya permit a Muslim to lie to non-Muslims for Islam's sake and interests.
Tagiyya is more prominent under the Shia's doctrines but is also promoted in Sunni Islam as supported by the many references above to reinforce the point.

What is your counter point and greater understanding?
Taqiyya is used to protect oneself when absolutely necessary. And it is continued only as long as absolutely necessary.
 
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Yytz6

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Jews observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week Saturday. Christians observe the Lord's day on the first day of the week Sunday. Muslims observe a Sabbath like day on Friday.

So, in practice, the observation of a Sabbath like day of rest move forward. One day under Christianity and then backwards 2 days under Islam.

Been that way for centuries, even millenia.

Does happen that moving the Sabbath observation back 2 days? Makes me think of the Masoretic text? Which moves the biblical chronology back 2000 years = two biblical days.
Muslims don't have a sabbath like day. Sabbath for the jews was just a temporary punishment and a test.
 
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