Divine Determinism and You

Grip Docility said:

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

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You can not really know the future, unless you are in control of it.

Grip Docility said:

How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

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It would depend on the person I was talking to.

Basically, I would say I believe that God is in control, and it is good to be with Him so He is making me able to do what is good, in spite of evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

Grip Docility said:

Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

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As to the question of evil,

Isa.45

1. 
   [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don’t think that many can Truly appreciate what sacrifice God The Father has made as it regards his eternity. He knows everything that there is to know and has created an eternity that is fruitful for eternity for us. What Christ went through was also beyond us. For the first time in eternity He was separated from God The Father.

lsume said:

As to the question of evil,

Isa.45

1. 
   [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don’t think that many can Truly appreciate what sacrifice God The Father has made as it regards his eternity. He knows everything that there is to know and has created an eternity that is fruitful for eternity for us. What Christ went through was also beyond us. For the first time in eternity He was separated from God The Father.

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But it also expanded His point of view from that of creation. So in a sense what was foreknown that was subject to formation proceeding the creation has no sense of mystery to it because the mystery revealed also became part of the unfolding.

LoreneDD said:

But it also expanded His point of view from that of creation. So in a sense what was foreknown that was subject to formation proceeding the creation has no sense of mystery to it because the mystery revealed also became part of the unfolding.

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I don’t know if you have ever looked into quantum entanglement or spooky action at a distance but one viewpoint on the subject must be that everything is determined period. How would you like to live for eternity knowing everything in advance is the thought here.

lsume said:

I don’t know if you have ever looked into quantum entanglement or spooky action at a distance but one viewpoint on the subject must be that everything is determined period. How would you like to live for eternity knowing everything in advance is the thought here.

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Sociology alone and God in fact would say that companionship is the fabric of any society, and the Kingdom won’t be any different coming from a human/divine government. Eternity will be all divine, once it’s all handed over to the Father, so not sure how any physics would have that equation set at. I don’t think the bible says too much about it.

Grip Docility said:

May I ask you what the Atheist would ask you if you furnished them with the interpretation of Isaiah 45:7 that you rendered?

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An atheist I know already provided the question: "Why is there so much evil in this world if there is an almighty God? Why doesn't He stop it from happening?" Isaiah 45:7 is the answer. People have preconceived notions of who God is without paying any attention at all as to who He says He is.

Grip Docility said:

Did God directly conceive Evil?

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All that exists, God created, either directly or through His creation. Start with John 1:1.

Grip Docility said:

If I need to accomplish a purpose, and I directly create Evil to accomplish it... like, say, create a serial killer out of a child, and use his murders to promote a very important charity... of mine... through who he kills and so forth...

Is that okay?

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Since God is in control of all things and knows all things (if He wasn't He wouldn't be God) He created the circumstances of all things from the beginning. Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. He purposed this to Himself, so it is clear that all other things are purposed by God in His plan, which never changes.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” - Romans 8:28-30

Yes, this includes evil.

LoreneDD said:

Sociology alone and God in fact would say that companionship is the fabric of any society, and the Kingdom won’t be any different coming from a human/divine government. Eternity will be all divine, once it’s all handed over to the Father, so not sure how any physics would have that equation set at. I don’t think the bible says too much about it.

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It simply may prove that man is not in control. However, due to the nature of man, he will resist the possibility. As you said, eternity is divine and beyond our comprehension. However, a number of people have had visions of Heaven including myself. Only Christ can get anyone there.

Hi, Grip I know you're "asking for it", and this is your thread; so here goes >

Grip Docility said:

To what degree do you see this control?

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absolute

God is almighty; so, in any case, I understand how nothing and no one can move or push God around in order to do anything. And whatsoever God is committed to doing, this is guaranteed. So, we do well to always trust God to do what He is committed to doing.

But for personal application > we do experience making choices, therefore having free will. But are we really in control, of our own selves . . . of anything? My opinion is our control is always the tail of the dog.

Also, on the personal experience level >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5).

And God's resistance is almighty, directly to a person and/or He is almightily managing circumstances to resist a person. So, no matter who a wrong person is who we are dealing with, we have God effectively resisting that person perfectly how God pleases. And while we ourselves as children of God can get upset and downcast and nasty about how things are going > this could be exposing which spirit in us has had us doing what we are doing. So, God could have known we are acting in ego, and so He has resisted us so Satan does not take us as far into trouble as he would. So, the control of God's resistance is good . . . caring.

And we have in Job chapter one how the LORD dictated what Satan could and could not do to Job. And with this dictation, I understand, was God's absolute control of Satan; because if Satan really had autonomous ability to do what he pleased, I doubt very much he would have held himself to what the LORD dictated he could and could not do. There is a reason practical for the fire of hell; evil beings will not negotiate; they are so stubborn that only fire can manage them > in my opinion.

Is God the Will and Design behind the nature of fallen Angels?

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"'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'" (Acts 15:18)

His works include how He has redeemed us through Jesus. So, I would say, to apply this scripture, that if God knew He would redeem us, He knew the angels would fall and then Satan would take down Adam and Eve.

And was this all in His control? The Bible says Jesus was meant to have "the preeminence" "in all things" (Colossians 1:18). So, my opinionated application of this is that all along Jesus was meant to be the very first Man to live a perfect life on this planet. Adam and Eve, as creatures were never planned to live perfectly, even at the creature level. They are an object lesson of how much any of us in our created and human natured wills has any chance, at all, without Jesus.

Only with God can we have real control . . . and this not independent human control which can be an issue of our egos. But in Jesus we share with God in His almighty Spirit of His love (Romans 5:5) which does not merely control people and make things happen, but in us we share in His own immunity almighty to control evil spirit things like fear > 1 John 4:18.

So, it is wise not to try to do our own choosing and controlling, just because we will be fooling ourselves, and being not humble to acknowledge God as the only One worthy to take care of us and guide us and keep us safe from boredom and loneliness and worry and unforgiveness and dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure and excitement.

Or, would you say God Created all things Good, and by free will provided, Creation deviated from God’s design?

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Yes, God created all things "very good", His word says in Genesis chapter one. But, even though all was created "very good" . . . look at how Adam and Eve fell. How ever can what is "very good" cause its own self to fall to Satan?

My opinions are that: God never was committed to letting creature beings prove themselves; because they would be missing out on sharing with Jesus; and they as creatures were able to be overpowered by Satan's evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2 > corrupting them to become disobedient.

So, if I am right, this shows how much, really, we need to depend always on the LORD in us, to keep us safe from evil spirit emotions and feelings and drives and thinking, and to continually guide us in His love.

Because God is love, He will not settle for us having less than His own Son Jesus. So, being successful as a creature in some created and human will is not enough. Plus, we see how readily even God's "very good" created humans fell to Satan. So, I consider there is no in between.

[QUOTEBy saying “control”... do you mean everything is pre-determined, or do you mean... by having omniscience, God can use all things to His Glory, despite deviations, due to free Will, occurring?[/QUOTE]Ok > all is known to God because all is in His control. Like I offered, before, you can't really know the future unless you have control of it.

And about free will > we experience ourselves making choices, apart from God. But if I can make a choice in separation from God, isn't this a problem? I mean if sin is separation from God, as some number of free will believers will claim > free will means being still in sin, possibly!!

And is there middle ground? Can you be free from God blessing and also free from Satan's evil spirit messing?

There are people who want to think that it would be slavery if all their willing was managed by God. But if we are not with Jesus, we are slaves of sin, not free > Romans 6:17.

Even so, it is clear how we will answer for how we have lived. And we will reap what we have sown > Galatians 6:7-8.

And our Apostle Paul does say,

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, to me this means God in me will work me to will whatsoever God knows He wants me to do. And God has His will for me, at every moment. So, at every moment, then, I trust, I am wise to submit to God in order to discover what actually He has me will to do. And enjoy sharing with Him, sweetly in His love.

And how can I be smart enough and fast enough to figure out at each moment what our Heavenly Father desires for me to do???? So I need, then, to simply be submissive to Him all the time, and flow with how He creates for me to love Him and care for any and all people.

So, I guess we could say this > the best control is in God's loving through us.

But ones claim, if I understand them right, that if we did not have free will to choose to sin, we could not love God. But Jesus can not sin, and He loves our Father just fine, I would say

Grip Docility said:

If I need to accomplish a purpose, and I directly create Evil to accomplish it... like, say, create a serial killer out of a child, and use his murders to promote a very important charity... of mine... through who he kills and so forth...

Is that okay?

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I'm getting really tired of people bringing up specific individual situations like this and think they can judge God evil for it...

That being said, how many people are serial killers...? how many children are...?

What if creating and allowing some evil, was the "only way" to bring about greater and highest and greatest good...? Especially in the end...?

Because that "is the case" here...

Your not seeing the "big picture" here, and bringing up these great minority of evil individual situations and circumstances and having the gall to think you can judge God evil because of it, anyway, it is that which is evil, and all because or your own rebellious attitude and nature, and that's evil to me...

That being said, we have to go about this life as if we have choice, even if we really don't, because their is not other choice but to do it that way...

God Bless!

You seem to forget that the reason that there is not a lot more evil than there actually is is all because of God also...

But you want to judge Him evil for allowing just a little bit of evil, that will pay off with a thousand fold much greater, and much, much better and higher and greater good in the end...

As for the great minority of very bad situations and circumstances and those directly or specifically involved in them, God will make it all very good and right and very just in the end, and your faith is very weak if you don't have faith in that, in the end...

God Bless!

At the heart of most peoples free will attitude is rebelliousness against God...

God Bless!

lsume said:

It simply may prove that man is not in control. However, due to the nature of man, he will resist the possibility. As you said, eternity is divine and beyond our comprehension. However, a number of people have had visions of Heaven including myself. Only Christ can get anyone there.

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What did your vision of heaven disclose?

Sound Doctrine said:

An atheist I know already provided the question: "Why is there so much evil in this world if there is an almighty God? Why doesn't He stop it from happening?" Isaiah 45:7 is the answer. People have preconceived notions of who God is without paying any attention at all as to who He says He is.

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Grip Docility said:

Did God directly conceive Evil?

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Sound Doctrine said:

All that exists, God created, either directly or through His creation. Start with John 1:1.

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Grip Docility said:

If I need to accomplish a purpose, and I directly create Evil to accomplish it... like, say, create a serial killer out of a child, and use his murders to promote a very important charity... of mine... through who he kills and so forth...

Is that okay?

Click to expand...

Neogaia777 said:

how many people are serial killers...? how many children are...?

What if creating and allowing some evil, was the "only way" to bring about greater and highest and greatest good...? Especially in the end...?

Because that "is the case" here...

Click to expand...

Neogaia777 said:

That being said, we have to go about this life as if we have choice, even if we really don't, because their is not other choice but to do it that way...

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Ok, so above we have I would say pretty much the most well-known ideas about this.

First, Grip, I consider that God "creating" evil means He in His control had hard things come against the rebellious Jews. It does not mean He brought evil into existence, but He used worldly non-Jews to create chaos for the disobedient.

So, then, where did the spirit of evil come from? Our Apostle Paul clearly says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) My opinion is that God who is all good could not ever have brought Satan's evil spirit into existence. He could not have even thought of such a thing!!!! I mean if ever in eternity there were only God all good, there never could have developed even the idea of evil or some imagination of what is bad.

Plus, God's "very good" creation of its own self could not have brought evil into existence, nor could "very good" creation of its own nature have volunteered to fall to Satan or do anything evil.

So, in case I am right about this, then there always has existed stuff of the evil spirit. But God has managed it and limited it. And it is on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. So, don't be a sewer bucket of that stuff of lusts and hate and pride and unforgiveness which is sewage. Do not let any of that stuff ever have any effect in you.

So, then, what about the child turned serial killer?

Yes, that is horrible. But have you considered how culturally accepted Jewish mommies and daddies became able to curse their own children with the shed blood of Jesus?? Matthew 27:25 Those Jews were human just like us. Our Apostle Paul says, to Gentiles included, "we all once" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3)

So, all of us have been children of wrath . . . not only those mommies and daddies who cursed their own children with the blood of Jesus. Any of us could have done that. And which do you trust can do more harm to a child? >

a parent who is capable of cursing one's own children,

or a stranger who kills the child but does not curse the child with the blood of Jesus?

And if we all have been created equal, then no one to start with is superior to anyone else. So, in case I have not been a serial killer, this does not mean I am automatically superior to a serial killer > after all, if cultural and civilized mothers and fathers could hate Jesus and curse their own children with His blood, this shows how a human can give in to doing much worse than he or she realizes he or she could. That fact that we haven't does not mean we couldn't. Look at what happened after Peter boasted he would never deny Jesus.

But, of course, when I read about the Catholic predator problem, I welcomed that as my excuse to look down on the leaders and the predators and the pew members who had not been able to tell the difference. And I stand warned that if my first reaction is to welcome an opportunity to look down on someone and be unforgiving, this is bad. And I am helping the bad situation, because I am not being an example with Jesus, of caring about and having hope for any and all evil people. So, I am not helping to pray out grace and mercy almighty which is able to change any evil person into a child of God. So, if I am investing in looking down on someone else and unforgiveness, this is contributing to Satan's kingdom.

And God is the One who is able to deal with evil, and He uses us His children to minister this. So, we are wise to do what He says to do > "first of all" > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

And Jesus says, "He who loves his life will lose it," in John 12:25. In our selfish loving, we are in Satan's selfish spirit which is sure to bring us to ruin. In selfish loving, making favorite people our love idols, we are connected with the kingdom of evil. And Jesus is plain > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, if our loving is selfish and in Satan's kingdom, we are connected with his predators and killers and arguing parents whose terrible example can ruin children so they grow up not knowing how to relate in love. So, we can judge God, or see the warning of how evil does what it does to people, and trust God to take care of us and correct us so we find out how to love any and all people as ourselves . . . like how Jesus cared about us so much that He left all He had in Heaven in order to reach us and save us and share God's own good with us.

If we don't love like this, we are contributing spiritually to Satan's kingdom.

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And trust and thank God for however He includes us in doing His good through Jesus

All this evil that we've been in since the fall and up to now, is likened to a woman in labor, and the labor is the most intense before the end, and it's hard and painful, but after the labor is finally over, what she gives birth to, is her exquisite elated joy and comfort...

That is just like this world and the way it is now and the way it has been since the fall, but what we will eventually give birth to, will make it all very well worth it, to the point that we even forget about the period of labor and labor pains altogether...

God Bless!