Divine Determinism and You

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

Pavel Mosko · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these questions 5 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs? One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

I've already had these discussions with an theist of a now defunct theology board. For the atheist the evil in the world largely revolved around the issues of bad fortune which largely proved that a God/higher power did not exist.

For me the issue was the opposite. While I acknowledged their were events that were outside of human agency especially natural disasters etc. but much of the problems in the World come from what humans do to each other, or fail to to do in the sense of sins of omission (even things outside of our control like natural disasters are affected by human agency).

Anyway Athiests would frame every on "Why did God not intervene?" Even when it came to humans willfully abusing each other. My theodicy was that God sometimes did intervene but largely didn't (respecting human choice unless it severely went against his plans, will etc.), and as seen in the Bible God often used the evil done by others to eventually work things around for the good. But with an athiest view of things, God would have to hover over everything and intervene like an overprotective "helicopter" parent.

I will also say I am into the idea of a Soul Building/ Soul making theodicy. That has limitations in terms of Christianity but does provide some good reasons for suffering in the world. And I personally was forced to have to think about that in my own life. A few years ago, I read a paper that helped me deal with some of my own life issues.

Failure | Reasonable Faith

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
I've already had these discussions with an theist of a now defunct theology board. For the atheist the evil in the world largely revolved around the issues of bad fortune which largely proved that a God/higher power did not exist.

For me the issue was the opposite. While I acknowledged their were events that were outside of human agency especially natural disasters etc. but much of the problems in the World come from what humans do to each other, or fail to to do in the sense of sins of omission (even things outside of our control like natural disasters are affected by human agency).

Anyway Athiests would frame every on "Why did God not intervene?" Even when it came to humans willfully abusing each other. My theodicy was that God sometimes did intervene but largely didn't, and as seen in the Bible God often used the evil done by others to eventually work things around for the good. But with an athiest view of things, God would have to hover over everything and intervene like an overprotective "helicopter" parent.

I will also say I am into the idea of a Soul Building/ Soul making theodicy. That has limitations in terms of Christianity but does provide some good reasons for suffering in the world. And I personally was forced to have to think about that in my own life. A few years ago, I read a paper that helped me deal with some of my own life issues.

Failure | Reasonable Faith

I just skimmed your paper... but will go back and thoroughly read it as soon as I am done posting this response to you. I can literally recall scripture as I read all you have written!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

Pavel Mosko · Jun 27, 2019

This is a video that worth watching. The series is on Islam, but goes off topic to cover the book "Faith of the Fatherless". (If you've dealt with atheists they like to cover the supposed daddy issues of theists, as a reason for the belief in God, but they got their own issues.)

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
This is a video that worth watching. The series is on Islam, but goes off topic to cover the book "Faith of the Fatherless". (If you've dealt with atheists they like to cover the supposed daddy issues of theists, as a reason for the belief in God, but they got their own issues.)

David Wood?

I will watch this for sure! He is indeed an Atheist that turned to Jesus Christ with a hunger that is apparent in everything he puts out!

Dave L · Jun 27, 2019

Einstein on Free Will (Determinism)

I found this interesting. Einstein basically says the same thing the Westminster* and London Baptist Confessions said nearly 400 years ago about free will in Chapter 3:1. I don't think Einstein got it from scripture, but through logic. But scripture is logical when understood properly.

In a 1929 interview, when the argument about quantum mechanics “uncertainty” was at its height, Einstein modestly said: “I claim credit for nothing”, explaining that:

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

Though theologians have mostly believed that people choose and are morally responsible for their actions, Einstein agreed with medieval philosopher Baruch Spinoza that one’s actions, and even one’s thoughts, are determined by natural laws of causality.

Spinoza said:

“In the mind there is no absolute or free will;
but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause,
which has also been determined by another cause,
and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity.”

Thus, in 1932 Einstein told the Spinoza society:

“Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free
but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.”

Einstein’s belief in causal determinism seemed to him both scientifically and philosophically incompatible with the concept of human free will. In a 1932 speech entitled ‘My Credo’, Einstein briefly explained his deterministic ideology:

“I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer’s words: ‘Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills’ accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of freedom of will preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper.”

Einstein’s 1931 essay “The World As I See It” contains this similar passage:

“In human freedom in the philosophical sense I am definitely a disbeliever.
Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with
inner necessity. Schopenhauer’s saying, that “a man can do as he will, but not
will as he will,” has been an inspiration to me since my youth, and a continual
consolation and unfailing well-spring of patience in the face of the hardships
of life, my own and others’. This feeling mercifully mitigates the sense of
responsibility which so easily becomes paralyzing, and it prevents us from taking
ourselves and other people too seriously; it conduces to a view of life in
which humor, above all, has its due place.”

But despite his deterministic philosophy and science, Einstein realized that people’s belief in free will is pragmatically necessary for a civilized society; that it causes them to take responsibility for their actions, and enables society to regulate such actions.* So he said:

“I am compelled to act as if free will existed, because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly. . . I know that philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer not to take tea with him.”*

I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.”

Albert Einstein (1954)

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[1]

[1] OPC Westminster Confession with Modern English.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

Christians need to take off their lens and see clearly what scripture, our manual about God, has to say about Himself. We can ask a ton of "why questions" however we really should be asking more "what questions", like.... What is the will of the Father? This should keep any Christian quite busy and deterred from asking about things that we only know "in part".
Blessings

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Christians need to take off their lens and see clearly what scripture, our manual about God, has to say about Himself. We can ask a ton of "why questions" however we really should be asking more "what questions", like.... What is the will of the Father? This should keep any Christian quite busy and deterred from asking about things that we only know "in part".
Blessings

Thank you for joining the discussion.

Do you have a stance that might answer some or all of the 6 questions asked within the OP?

. I would be delighted to hear any of them.

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Dave L said:
Einstein on Free Will (Determinism)

I found this interesting. Einstein basically says the same thing the Westminster* and London Baptist Confessions said nearly 400 years ago about free will in Chapter 3:1. I don't think Einstein got it from scripture, but through logic. But scripture is logical when understood properly.

In a 1929 interview, when the argument about quantum mechanics “uncertainty” was at its height, Einstein modestly said: “I claim credit for nothing”, explaining that:

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

Though theologians have mostly believed that people choose and are morally responsible for their actions, Einstein agreed with medieval philosopher Baruch Spinoza that one’s actions, and even one’s thoughts, are determined by natural laws of causality.

Spinoza said:

“In the mind there is no absolute or free will;
but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause,
which has also been determined by another cause,
and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity.”

Thus, in 1932 Einstein told the Spinoza society:

“Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free
but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.”

Einstein’s belief in causal determinism seemed to him both scientifically and philosophically incompatible with the concept of human free will. In a 1932 speech entitled ‘My Credo’, Einstein briefly explained his deterministic ideology:

“I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer’s words: ‘Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills’ accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of freedom of will preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper.”

Einstein’s 1931 essay “The World As I See It” contains this similar passage:

“In human freedom in the philosophical sense I am definitely a disbeliever.
Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with
inner necessity. Schopenhauer’s saying, that “a man can do as he will, but not
will as he will,” has been an inspiration to me since my youth, and a continual
consolation and unfailing well-spring of patience in the face of the hardships
of life, my own and others’. This feeling mercifully mitigates the sense of
responsibility which so easily becomes paralyzing, and it prevents us from taking
ourselves and other people too seriously; it conduces to a view of life in
which humor, above all, has its due place.”

But despite his deterministic philosophy and science, Einstein realized that people’s belief in free will is pragmatically necessary for a civilized society; that it causes them to take responsibility for their actions, and enables society to regulate such actions.* So he said:

“I am compelled to act as if free will existed, because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly. . . I know that philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer not to take tea with him.”*

I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.”

Albert Einstein (1954)

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[1]

[1] OPC Westminster Confession with Modern English.

Thank you for this contribution... Brother Dave.

1213 · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

I believe it is because He wanted to give freedom.

Grip Docility said:
Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

I believe it is, because people wanted to know evil. People were expelled to this first death, after they wanted to know evil. And in this “life” we have truly opportunity to learn what evil (Godless) means. Luckily this is just a short lesson and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. This “life” is like Matrix, virtual reality for soul that is in safe and can experience many things without being destroyed. Disciples of Jesus (“Christians”) should not fear anything of this world.

Grip Docility said:
Why does Evil Exist?

Because good has been rejected. Evil is like emptiness, nothing, lack of good.

Grip Docility said:
Why do we sin?

People reject God, because they love more something else.

Grip Docility said:
Why will some people be Lost?

Because they love more evil than good and are not righteous.

Grip Docility said:
What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

It means that God know everything. He knows people and therefore also what they will choose and what will be the result.

bling · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why will some people be Lost?

This all has to do with “how God Knows everything”.

No one has in the last 100 shown time to not be relative and the time/space continuum not to exist.

We might all agree that God at the end of time would know all choices including free will choice made from the beginning of time as pure history and we should agree if something historically happened it cannot be changed (it was done, so it cannot also be not be done).

If God exists everywhere in space then can He also exist everywhere in time? Can God communicate within Himself from the end of time to the beginning of time? Which means the God at the beginning of time knows all that will happen for man throughout time as a pure historical event.

For anyone to know historically a free will choice does not keep the choice from being a free will choice, so if God knows all free will choices as historical fact that does not keep them from being free will choices.

If a potential free will being is not ever going to be made, then God could not know historically what that person did, since it never did anything. As soon as the being is going to be made, God at the end of time historically knows everything about that being including if it went to heaven or hell, which can be given as history to God right after His decision to make the being, but historical information can only be given after there is (or will be) history.

Grip Docility said:
Why do we sin?

I will address this separately, but it can be included in the answer to the other questions.

God could have not had the tree of knowledge nor satan in the Garden or build a high electric fence around the tree, so are Adam and Eve being set up to sin?

“Sin” has purpose and unfortunately, will be necessary for mature adult in helping them fulfill their earthly objective.

Grip Docility said:
What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

Knowing everything that can be known.

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

There's no blanket statement about what atheists know about God, as they are individuals.

But, among those individuals, I've read many hundreds of viewpoints that are very distant from any scripture, often wildly so, and though some of these seem intentionally made up negative images, some others seem sincere misperceptions.

Based on just my own random several thousand instances I've read, I found only a tiny portion had even any mainstream Christian view of God's known attributes from scripture. But a tiny portion of thousands is still itself quite a few.

So while it's easy to find instances of theological perspectives of God among atheists.

That's still only a minority of them among posts I've read.

Most have misconceptions instead, just like one might suppose. Which is encouraging of course. In any crowd will be a few that could hear the word in a more perceiving way.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Thank you for joining the discussion.

Do you have a stance that might answer some or all of the 6 questions asked within the OP? . I would be delighted to hear any of them.

My best shot.
Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?
He did not create them in this condition though He did create them with free will. If you remember in the case of Adam and Eve, they were once in union with God until they made a decision to break that union with the one and only sin at that time. This caused their spiritual death. Only to be renewed by Jesus Christ of Nazareth through regeneration.
Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?
I don't have an answer to this question other than He is God and He has a plan that we can not
understand.
Why does Evil Exist?
It was invited in by Adam and Eve through the serpent. The serpent was cunning. God planted this deceiver in the Garden of Eden to test the loyalty of His free willed creation.
Why do we sin?
The flesh is weak.
Why will some people be Lost?
They hate God.
What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?
"“Omniscience” literally means “all knowledge,” or “all science.” The omniscience of God may be defined as that attribute of God whereby He knows Himself and all things possible and actual in one eternal act. The All Knowing One knows all things immediately, simultaneously, and exhaustively. By definition God is the ultimate Scientist since He is the ultimate Knower and has the ultimate knowledge of all things." (not my words but am using it as a very good definition.)
The finite mind cannot grasp the complete truth of the omniscience of God. All I can say is God knows far better than anything He has created.

Sound Doctrine · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

Questions 1, 2, 4, & 5 Answered in part:
Matthew 18:7 - "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

Question 3 answered in part:
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Question 6 answered in part:
Revelation 19:6 - "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

As for free will, the Bible says we have a will, but it is against God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

As far as I can see, determinism is another way of expressing the Biblical concept of election and predestination. These things are taught in the Bible, and not free will or conditional cause-and-effect. There are many places in both testaments that demonstrate where God gives man the choice to do or not do things, but none of man's actions are out of the foreknowledge and control of God. That is why He is called Almighty God, Omnipotent, etc. There are many ways the Bible teaches election and predestination. Without predestination, we couldn't have prophecies from God. Prophecies are unconditional. Commandments come with conditions in that going against God has consequences and obeying Him means reward. In either case, God is in control and already knows from the beginning what our actions will be.

John 6:63-66 - "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Grip Docility · Jun 27, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
Questions 1, 2, 4, & 5 Answered in part:
Matthew 18:7 - "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

Question 3 answered in part:
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Question 6 answered in part:
Revelation 19:6 - "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

As for free will, the Bible says we have a will, but it is against God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

As far as I can see, determinism is another way of expressing the Biblical concept of election and predestination. These things are taught in the Bible, and not free will or conditional cause-and-effect. There are many places in both testaments that demonstrate where God gives man the choice to do or not do things, but none of man's actions are out of the foreknowledge and control of God. That is why He is called Almighty God, Omnipotent, etc. There are many ways the Bible teaches election and predestination. Without predestination, we couldn't have prophecies from God. Prophecies are unconditional. Commandments come with conditions in that going against God has consequences and obeying Him means reward. In either case, God is in control and already knows from the beginning what our actions will be.

John 6:63-66 - "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

May I ask you what the Atheist would ask you if you furnished them with the interpretation of Isaiah 45:7 that you rendered?

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2019

I'm on a mobile device and it's hard to type long answers, but here are a few brief ones, and they are also as I'd respond to a believer.

Evil is totally inevitable is there is freedom of action and intelligence, and there isn't even a way to avoid it I think under any conceivable mechanism or design, A-Z, except to:
1) make us rigidly programmed (robots)
or
2) to control us like puppets
or
3) isolate or imprison us.

"Evil" is to intentionally do to others as we would not want anyone to do to us.

Without freedom -- and in consequence evil sometimes then happening also -- love would not be possible.

To continue, love requires the person be able to trust at times, and forgive at times. Therefore, it follows we can learn over time to love better in that we can learn to trust and to forgive.

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2019

Dave L said:
Einstein on Free Will (Determinism)

I found this interesting. Einstein basically says the same thing the Westminster* and London Baptist Confessions said nearly 400 years ago about free will in Chapter 3:1. I don't think Einstein got it from scripture, but through logic. But scripture is logical when understood properly.

In a 1929 interview, when the argument about quantum mechanics “uncertainty” was at its height, Einstein modestly said: “I claim credit for nothing”, explaining that:

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

Though theologians have mostly believed that people choose and are morally responsible for their actions, Einstein agreed with medieval philosopher Baruch Spinoza that one’s actions, and even one’s thoughts, are determined by natural laws of causality.

Spinoza said:

“In the mind there is no absolute or free will;
but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause,
which has also been determined by another cause,
and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity.”

Thus, in 1932 Einstein told the Spinoza society:

“Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free
but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.”

Einstein’s belief in causal determinism seemed to him both scientifically and philosophically incompatible with the concept of human free will. In a 1932 speech entitled ‘My Credo’, Einstein briefly explained his deterministic ideology:

“I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer’s words: ‘Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills’ accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of freedom of will preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper.”

Einstein’s 1931 essay “The World As I See It” contains this similar passage:

“In human freedom in the philosophical sense I am definitely a disbeliever.
Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with
inner necessity. Schopenhauer’s saying, that “a man can do as he will, but not
will as he will,” has been an inspiration to me since my youth, and a continual
consolation and unfailing well-spring of patience in the face of the hardships
of life, my own and others’. This feeling mercifully mitigates the sense of
responsibility which so easily becomes paralyzing, and it prevents us from taking
ourselves and other people too seriously; it conduces to a view of life in
which humor, above all, has its due place.”

But despite his deterministic philosophy and science, Einstein realized that people’s belief in free will is pragmatically necessary for a civilized society; that it causes them to take responsibility for their actions, and enables society to regulate such actions.* So he said:

“I am compelled to act as if free will existed, because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly. . . I know that philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer not to take tea with him.”*

I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.”

Albert Einstein (1954)

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[1]

[1] OPC Westminster Confession with Modern English.

It's good to be aware it looks more and more like Einstein got that determinism assumption wrong, according to the outcomes of Bell Test experiments, and that instead the Copenhagen Interpretation (unsatisfying or uncomfortable as it may be) continues to be the valid reality, and may reflect the way things really/ultimately are, it seems, as various more fully deterministic alternatives have all been disproved or failed to get any supporting evidence.

( It's possible, consistent to experiments, that ordinary physics may have some true randomness designed into it on the most fundamental level. This would still result in everything working in all familiar ways, with much stability, and even complex things like weather partly predictable, on limited time scales.)

Dave L · Jun 27, 2019

Halbhh said:
It's good to be aware it looks more and more like Einstein got that determinism assumption wrong, according to the outcomes of Bell Test experiments, and that instead the Copenhagen Interpretation (unsatisfying or uncomfortable as it may be) continues to be the valid reality, and may reflect the way things really/ultimately are, it seems, as various more fully deterministic alternatives have all been disproved or failed to get any supporting evidence.

( It's possible, consistent to experiments, that ordinary physics may have some true randomness designed into it on the most fundamental level. This would still result in everything working in all familiar ways, with much stability, and even complex things like weather partly predictable, on limited time scales.)

Regardless, the Westminster and London Baptist Confessions taught this 4 centuries before Einstein discovered it.

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Divine Determinism states Determinism to Varying degrees.

What is Determinism?

Determinism is a theologically lensed (Man Interpreted) statement that holds to the precept that “because God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, all occurrences in all of existence are God’s specific revelations of God’s Desire / Will.”

There are varying degrees of Determinism.

Core Theology has to identify several issues that arise from either a Determinist stance or Free Will stance.

Issues to grapple with:

Why did God create people and angels that eventually end up doing terrible things?

Why does God allow Terrible things to happen?

Why does Evil Exist?

Why do we sin?

Why will some people be Lost?

What does Omniscient mean and how does it impact all of Creation... even beyond our universe?

There’s a ton of argumentative discussions on this topic... But... from heart... How would you answer these 6 questions if asked them by an Atheist... genuinely searching to confirm or deny their specific beliefs?

One last point... if a person believes Atheists don’t have a theological perspective of Who God is, they are mistaken.

Determinism is the basic (innocent) common sense way (what we learn from ordinary life when young) we all guess physics would work, but it turns out to be a chancy assumption when taken to that extreme of total (full) determinism-- the "clockwork universe", where everything is already set ahead of time.

In physics it seems increasingly clear that's not likely how nature is designed.

Randomness (which averaging tends to cancel out the effects of) though would be no problem for God, Who is is able to accomplish His plans regardless -- Isaiah chapter 46. (God makes known what He intends to accomplish, and will, no matter what)

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2019

How full determinism in nature appears less and less likely to be how nature is designed:
Physicists Are Closing the Bell Test Loophole | Quanta Magazine

This suggests that even in naturalistic assumptions (which atheists typically believe or assume), actual free will, not only the appearance alone, is very possible.

In other words many/most popular questions they pose against God's fairness are actually (ultimately) moot, even under their own preferred naturalism.

Divine Determinism and You

Well-Known Member

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Well-Known Member

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Disciple of Jesus

Regular Member

Everything You say is Life to me

Well-Known Member

Endure Sound Doctrine

Well-Known Member

Everything You say is Life to me

Everything You say is Life to me

Well-Known Member

Everything You say is Life to me

Everything You say is Life to me

Similar threads