Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 27, 2019

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Jason,

I think the problem with the above is your lack of distinction when you say "salvation."

In Reformation Theology (my tradition) there is a distinction. Our changed relationship is typically referred to as "Justification" and the teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE as one undivided, inseparable teaching. Grace Alone - Christ Alone - Faith Alone. An important Christian put it this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." ALL this is God's work. ALL this is "the free gift of God" as Paul declares. It's all because of God's mercy, grace, unconditional love.... Jesus IS THE Savior (not just a savior, not just a helper, not just the possibility maker, not just the model/teacher).... and the divine gift of faith (reliance) embraces this and makes the benefits of it our own. It's GOD'S work. Monergism not synergism.

Once given spiritual life and justifying faith... once made His own.... we are to grow and mature. This is not optional BUT it's not self saving self (making Jesus ultimately not the Savior but just a door opener), it is the NEW self being new. It's important to stress the mandate.... but not to mix it with justification.

An illustration: Perhaps 9 months before my birth, God GAVE me physical life. I didn't earn it, deserve it, request it or create it - in whole or in part. It was a FREE GIFT OF GOD, who is "the Lord and Giver of life" (as we confess in the creed). But once born, almost immediately, God and my parents and society called me to grow, to mature, to be responsible, to serve, to be a moral person. Being a good man is NOT what gave me life (or even preserves it) but the life given to me empowers what I'm now called to do. The call for me to be all God desires is not to be ignored or watered down, but nor is it to be confused with the free gift of life. Self is not the Lord and Giver of Life. God is. In the same way, spiritual life was GIVEN to me (I believe within one minute of my physical birth, when I was baptized but that's a different issue). It means I have faith... I am justified.... I am a child of God.... I am heaven bound... as the free gift of God.... Jesus did it.... the Holy Spirit made it my own.... I have recieved faith, life, the Holy Spirit. NOW, I am to become ever more Christ-life. NOW I am to increasingly to love and serve. Two interrelated but separate issues.

I hope that contributes something...

- Josiah

Nowhere does the Bible say that being born again spiritually or regenerated spiritually is a gift from God. To enter the Kingdom one must have the heart of a child and be humble so as to repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is God's grace and this gift of grace is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son that whosoever believers in him (NOT those in whom God forces to make believe) shall have eternal life.

One of the biggest passages against Calvinism or Reformed Theology is:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

So Jesus (Who is God) desires Jerusalem to be gather them like children as a hen gathers it's chicks, but they would not allow it. This is clearly talking about God's chosen people rejecting their Messiah. God's chosen people. They rejected their Messiah.

The main problem with Calvinism is that it is something that is forced upon the individual (Whether that be salvation or damnation). This is based upon no conditions whatsoever (Hence why it is called: "Unconditional Election."). However, 1 Peter 1:1-2 teaches us that God elects according to His future foreknowledge. This is confirmed in Scripture. In Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, we learn that those people in the future who will worship the beast never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. So we are told by the Bible that it was their bad actions as to the reason why they are not written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world. So it is not Unconditional Election as Calvinism teaches. God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved.

Even believers who hold to "Once Saved Always Saved" (Who are against Calvinism) believe in a form of "Reverse Calvinism" or "Force Salvation" because they believe that after a believer makes a one time decision with Jesus Christ, they are forever locked into walking holy and doing what God wants (even though that many justify that it is okay to sin on occasion and that a believer will always sin occasion the rest of their life - which is a justification of a little bit of evil).

First, "works and holiness" is not a condition of the saved. How so?

We need to endure to the end as a part of salvation:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

Furthermore, here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

Second, the Bible teaches that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

I hope this helps;
And may God's good ways be upon you this fine day.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jun 27, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Nowhere does the Bible say that being born again spiritually or regenerated spiritually is a gift from God.

The ENTIRE foundation of Christianity is that Jesus is the Savior. If self saves self- in whole or in part - then Jesus isn't the Savior, is He?

Leviticus 26:12

1 John 3:1

Can't save self:

Ephesians 2:1

1 Corinthians 12:3

Romans 8:7-8

Galatians 2:21

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:20

Matthew 5:48

And many, many more.....

Jesus is the Savior (NO other, including the one you see in the mirror):

Acts 4:12

Ephesians 2:8

John 3:16

Romans 5:19

Galatians 3:13

Romans 6:23

Ephesians 2:8

Romans 3:21-25

1 Timothy 2:5

Acts 15:11

Romans 11:6

And many, many more.

To insist that Jesus is not the Savior but that actually it depends on self and the works of self is to destroy Christianity.

Every other religion on the planet teaches that people are sinful and fallen.... BUT..... with sufficient help from the divine (which exists for all).... with sufficient time given (which most grant via reincarnation).... people can save themselves - ultimately no need for the Savior, just a possibility maker, a door opener, a helper, a model and teacher (all of which Jesus ALSO is but none of those things saves anyone). Christianity teaches we need and have received the Savior. And in Him ALONE is there salvation.

TRUE, once born again.... once given the "free gift of God" of faith, life and the Holy Spirit.... once justified.... all that in place.... then we are Called to great things. To love as we have first been loved. To forgive as we first have been forgiven. To serve as we first have been served. To be perfect as He is perfect. To make disciples of all people. But these are things the saved do, not things the dead do in order to be saved.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Read James. He is not writing to dead, unregenerate, enemies of God who are void of faith, life and the Holy Spirit ... the whole book is about keeping the faith, those alive living.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Paul never teaches that the dead give themselves life. Yes, those alive live. Those loved love. But we don't save ourselves. If we did, then Jesus is a sick joke and a waste to time - nothing more than Buddah, just an example, just a teacher.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

Who is "we?" Is it dead, unregenerate, enemies of God VOID of spiritual life, of faith, of the Holy Spriit? Is Paul saying that we save ourselves by not sinning? If so, then who needs Jesus?

Again, you are confusing what the living are to do with how the dead become alive. The verses you quote here are all very true - they just aren't about justification, they aren't about the coming of spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ ... Justification (in the precise theological sense). You are confusing Law with Gospel..... growth with BEING born again.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

CaliforniaJosiah said:
The ENTIRE foundation of Christianity is that Jesus is the Savior. If self saves self- in whole or in part - then Jesus isn't the Savior, is He?

Leviticus 26:12

1 John 3:1

Can't save self:

Ephesians 2:1

1 Corinthians 12:3

Romans 8:7-8

Galatians 2:21

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:20

Matthew 5:48

And many, many more.....

Jesus is the Savior (NO other, including the one you see in the mirror):

Acts 4:12

Ephesians 2:8

John 3:16

Romans 5:19

Galatians 3:13

Romans 6:23

Ephesians 2:8

Romans 3:21-25

1 Timothy 2:5

Acts 15:11

Romans 11:6

And many, many more.

To insist that Jesus is not the Savior but that actually it depends on self and the works of self is to destroy Christianity.

Every other religion on the planet teaches that people are sinful and fallen.... BUT..... with sufficient help from the divine (which exists for all).... with sufficient time given (which most grant via reincarnation).... people can save themselves - ultimately no need for the Savior, just a possibility maker, a door opener, a helper, a model and teacher (all of which Jesus ALSO is but none of those things saves anyone). Christianity teaches we need and have received the Savior. And in Him ALONE is there salvation.

TRUE, once born again.... once given the "free gift of God" of faith, life and the Holy Spirit.... once justified.... all that in place.... then we are Called to great things. To love as we have first been loved. To forgive as we first have been forgiven. To serve as we first have been served. To be perfect as He is perfect. To make disciples of all people. But these are things the saved do, not things the dead do in order to be saved.

Read James. He is not writing to dead, unregenerate, enemies of God who are void of faith, life and the Holy Spirit ... the whole book is about keeping the faith, those alive living.

Paul never teaches that the dead give themselves life. Yes, those alive live. Those loved love. But we don't save ourselves. If we did, then Jesus is a sick joke and a waste to time - nothing more than Buddah, just an example, just a teacher.

Who is "we?" Is it dead, unregenerate, enemies of God VOID of spiritual life, of faith, of the Holy Spriit? Is Paul saying that we save ourselves by not sinning? If so, then who needs Jesus?

Again, you are confusing what the living are to do with how the dead become alive. The verses you quote here are all very true - they just aren't about justification, they aren't about the coming of spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ ... Justification (in the precise theological sense). You are confusing Law with Gospel..... growth with BEING born again.

That's a misconnect. A person cooperating with their rescuer does not merit the person being rescued to get any of the glory. For example: If a person is told by their rescuer to grab on to the rope and they will pull them up off the side of the cliff, the rescuer will later get the praise and glory for having rescued the person, and the guy who had been rescued would not get any recognition for saving himself. Yet, if the man did not hang on to the rope, he would fall off the cliff and die. But it was ultimately the rescuer that saved the guy off the cliff. The rescuer is still the savior to the other guy in that situation because they know that without the rescuer, this guy hanging on the side of the cliff on his own could not be saved. But again, cooperation on the part of the person being rescued does not take away the rescuer's glory and praise by others that he was the one who saved the guy.

But if the guy being rescued boasted in how he held on to the rope, and he was the one who was the one who really saved himself, people would just look at him all funny and or they would think he was nuts. So what you are saying here is not in line with reality.

You are not also plainly reading and believing the whole counsel of God's Word, either.

Peter said to those at Pentecost,

"Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
(Acts of the Apostles 2:40).

In your version of the Bible, this statement should not exist.
But yet, there it is in our bibles.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: John 5:24;

John 5:24 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

This verse needs to be read in context to verse 29 that says:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29).

So it is a balance. Verse 24 is referring to Initial Salvation, and verse 29 refers to the Final Salvation of the believer whereby they lived a life of doing good and not evil. For those who have done evil will be a part of the resurrection of damnation. They that have done good, will take part in the resurrection of life. So the idea that a believer is saved without doing good as a part of that salvation is illogical.

Of course you believe that good works, and holiness is a condition of the saved, but that would be in conflict with believers being told to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), and it would be in conflict with how believer can fall away into sin temporarily and die spiritually for a time and then later come back to have spiritual life again (See James 5:19-20, and the Parable of the Prodigal Son - Luke 15:11-32).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: 2Tim 4:18;

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18).

I am not sure how this verse works for you. You gave me the impression before that believers will always sin on occasion (not as a lifestyle). This is your confirmation that Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8 is referring to how the believer will always sin on some level on occasion. If this is the case, then how are you being delivered from every evil work if you admit that you will always sin or do evil on occasion (and not as a lifestyle)? If you don't believe in sinning on occasion or always falling short in this life, then please let me know. I don't want to misrepresent what you believe and or if you changed your belief (recently).

Also, 2 Timothy 4:18 has to be read in balance with other verses that appear to say the exact opposite of 2 Timothy 4:18.

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24).

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:11).

7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."
(Galatians 6:7-9).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

Granted, 2 Timothy 4:18 does not contradict these other verses. It merely is speaking in the sense of how God can deliver us from every evil work if we make the effort on our part to do so. It is not God who forces us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

We have to endure temptation so as to receive the crown of life.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

We have a way of escape available to us when we are tempted.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

But again, we have to choose that way of escape. God is not going to force us to choose that way of escape during times of temptation.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: John 10:9;

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9).

My guess is that you think that this means that a Christian can be out of fellowship with Jesus (i.e. He may go out of "The door," or out of "Jesus") because of occasional sin (and not sin as a lifestyle) and yet they can still saved.

The Bible teaches that believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved:

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: John 10:9;

Then what does John 10:9 mean?
Is it teaching we are leaving Jesus (the Door) behind?

No.

The sheepfold in John 10:1 is the kingdom of God (or it is God's people), "the Door" (John 10:2) is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the good shepherd that leads His sheep into the kingdom by their hearing his voice (John 10:3). The sheep are the people who hear the voice of Jesus and they follow Him or obey Him (John 10:4). The sheep will not hear the voice of strangers, or those who teach another way, and they will flee or run away from them (John 10:5).

In short, Jesus is BOTH:

#1. The Door (and),
#2. The Good Shepherd.

When they go out of the Door (Entrance Gate to Salvation), they are with the Shepherd and following Him. For the shepherd seeks to save that which is lost in the pastures. The following part of Jesus is obeying the teachings of Jesus (Which is a part of our Sanctification). This is the "root of righteousness" (or gift of righteousness) by which we produce much fruit. This root or gift of righteousness is the Holy Spirit whereby we have the fruits of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to all who obey (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: Acts 2:21

Acts of the Apostles 2:21 says,
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This verse does not say that once a person is saved they are always saved for all time. It merely is teaching how to get initially saved by the Lord. Nowhere does the verse say that they are saved for all time by calling upon the name of the Lord no matter what they do or how they live. Granted, if my memory serves me correctly, you believe that a believer can only sin on occasion (and not as a lifestyle). While believers do have mercy and grace by confessing their sin (1 John 1:9), it is not a mere paying of lip service their whole lives, but it is a means for us to eventually crucify the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). For the Bible does not make excuses for us in justifying even one grievous sin. How so?

Well, when you read Acts of the Apostles 2:21, you should read Acts of the Apostles 5:32 that says that the Holy Spirit is given to all who obey Him. Surely this is why Simon the sorcerer was not given the Spirit initially because he would do something sinful that would show that he was not in obedience to God (Which was the sin of trying to pay for the Spirit and the power of the gifts thereof). Simon the Sorcerer was told to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) so that he might be forgiven. There was no once saved always saved for him in just believing in the gospel.

Ananias and Sapphira is an example of believers falling away from the faith.
A great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about their being killed for lying to the Holy Spirit. Now, the emotion of fear makes no sense by believers if:

#1. The church knew Ananias and Sapphira were still saved (despite their sin of lying).
#2. The church knew Ananias and Sapphira were never saved to begin with.

For why would the church fear if these believers were saved? If they were saved, then they would experience either sadness (for missing them for a time), or they would take comfort in knowing that they are with Jesus.

If they were never saved to begin with, then why would the church fear over their deaths? Do believers fear the death of the wicked? If so, why? It makes no sense.

The only logical cause for why the church feared over their death is if they themselves could also fall by some kind of similar sin. It is the only logical and natural conclusion a detective could draw on such a case. Unless of course one is biased towards OSAS or something, then they need to change the text here to say something else.

Side Note:

When I say that believers crucify the affections and lusts in Galatians 5:24, I am referring to grievous sin and not faults of character or minor transgressions (that the Bible does not condemn and is not a major violation of loving God and loving one's neighbor).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: Acts 16:31

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts of the Apostles 16:31).

Again, nothing is said about how they will forever be saved no matter what they do from that point on. On the contrary if you were to skip to the next chapter, it says this:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are a few quick points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

What is interesting is that God turned from the wrath and judgment He said He was going to bring upon the Ninevites when they forsaken their sinful and or evil ways. This leads back full circle to your quote of Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Believing in Jesus also includes the command of repentance as taught in the next chapter (i.e. Acts of the Apostles 17:30). We know the fruits of repentance (forsaking of sin) involving the Ninevites is what averted God's judgment. This of course is a consistent theme through out the whole of the Bible.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: Rom 6:5; Rom 6:8;

Romans 6:5 says,
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Romans 6:8 says,
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"

The context of "being dead with Christ" (verse 8) or "planted in the likeness of his death" (verse 6) is the old man crucified (via Spirit baptism, which was done back in the day by water baptism - verses 3-4), so that the body of sin might be destroyed and whereby we should not serve sin (verses 6-7) (Note: I do not believe in water baptism for salvation, I believe in Spirit baptism for salvation; Water baptism just so happen to be the way people would initially accept Jesus back in the day).

3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4).

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7).

For we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
(2 Corinthians 7:1).

We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we will not make make a provision for the flesh and the lusts thereof.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Romans 8:13 says, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

In Romans 8:13, we see that the mortifying the deeds of the body (putting to death sin in our body) is a part of an act we do via the Holy Spirit whereby we shall live (i.e. live eternally by doing so).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
(Galatians 5:16).

When a person accepts Christ today (Which does not always have to include water baptism), they can receive the Spirit (Spirit baptism) whereby they are planted in the likeness of Christ's death. So Romans 6:5, and Romans 6:8 is no way is talking about Eternal Security, but Conditional Security because Romans 8:13 refers to the believer and gives the believer the choice in living after sin (Which leads to death), or putting to death sin via the Spirit (Which leads to eternal life). Believers are also told in Galatians 5:16 to walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: Rom 10:9;

Romans 10:9 says,

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. "

However, when you read Romans 10:9, you should also read Romans 11:22 that says,

"...if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

This was written to the Gentile believers, and it was warning that they should continue in God's good ways, otherwise, they could be cut off just like the Jews were cut off for their rejecting their Messiah.

Also, while Romans 10:9 is dealing with "Initial Salvation," we learn from other verses that confessing Jesus in as a part of our ongoing faith is a part of "Continued Salvation."

32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33).

For denying Jesus equates with Jesus denying us before the Father.
Confessing Jesus equates with Jesus confessing us before the Father.

So clearly Romans 10:9 is not teaching OSAS, when we take under consideration of the whole counsel of God's Word.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: 1Tim 2:11;

I am assuming you meant 2 Timothy 2:11 and not 1 Timothy 2:11.
1 Timothy 2:11 talks about women keeping silent in the churches.

Anyways, 2 Timothy 2:11 says,
"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him"

This means that if we have put to death the misdeeds of the body via the Holy Spirit we shall live jus as Romans 8:13 says. But if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (Romans 8:13).

1 Timothy 5 says this about certain widow beleivers:

"For some are already turned aside after Satan." (1 Timothy 5:15).

Now, a person cannot turn aside after Satan if they are already an unbeliever who is in Satan's grip already. The only way a person can turn aside after Satan is if they were once free from him and they turn aside back to him. So 2 Timothy 2:11 does not prove Eternal Security.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: 1Cor 3:15;

1 Corinthians 3:15 says,
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You said in another place on the forums on this verse:

"For believers, our life is a book of our history. Some pages are wood, hay and straw. These are times when we sinned. Others are gold, silver and precious stone. These are times when we did what was right. It is not ourselves, but our history of works which are subject to fire. The pages representing sin are burned up and we are rewarded upon what remains. As you note "he will be saved" regardless of his personal history, seeing as salvation is not contingent upon his performance but whether his name is written in the book of life.

Not so for unbelievers, including salvation by works Christians, some of whom have a purgatorial concept of that verse. They will be judge by the whole history of their life, as they rely upon their works to justify them with regards to salvation." ~ Bcbsr.

Source:
Post #8 in "Question about 1 Corinthians 3:15."

This means that you don't believe that confession of sin in 1 John 1:9:

#1. Does not really forgive you of sin
(Note: Forgiveness by God is tied to salvation in the Bible).
#2. Does not cleanse you of all unrighteousness.

You believe that your sins have not been dealt with in confessing and forsaking them.
Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

But you believe God will burn away your unresolved sin over the course of your life at the Judgment of believers.

First, nowhere does 1 Corinthians 3 relate "sin" as being the building materials that we build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. That does not make any sense. The building materials are clearly good works we build upon Jesus Christ who is the concrete slab or foundation of our house or building.

The context is clearly good works and not sin.

8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." (1 Corinthians 3:8-9).

Verse 8: The person who plants, and the person who waters are one, and every man shall receive of the reward according to his labor. Labor here is talking about laboring for God's kingdom (i.e. planting and watering the seed of the Word of God and not sin).

Verse 9: We (God's people) are laborers together with God. We surely do not labor together with God involving sin. Paul says you are God's husbandry (Believers' are God's field, or cultivation of the crop or farm). Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). The crop or cultivation of the farm of the field is the working of God within us when we cooperate with the Lord. Paul also says, "You are God's building." God's building.

10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 10-11 are saying we build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. We build our good works upon Jesus, and not sin. The materials of our building are good works that we build as a part of our faith in Jesus. We do not sin as a part of building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. That makes no sense.

In the beginning of 1 Corinthians 3:3 says that these brethren were carnal. In Romans 8:6, it says to be carnally minded is death. In 1 Corinthians 3:17 it says that if we defile our temple, God will destroy us. Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh, we will die. So sin or the flesh is not going to be be burned as you suggest in light of the whole counsel of God's Word. Jesus says to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). So the idea that a believer can have both good works and bad works is not going to fly with Jesus on judgment day. Yes, Jesus said He never knew them, and this is true. To know Jesus is to keep His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). To say we know the Lord and to not keep His commandments, means we are a liar and the truth is not in us (See: 1 John 2:4). Breaking God's commands sometimes out of one's life does not qualify as keeping His commandments. We have to be living uprightly before the Lord and confess and forsake our sins (See: Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:7).

Side Note:

1 Corinthians 4:5 says,

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

I believe this is the context of the works that will be burned. If a person's motivations of the heart are not entirely pure for the Lord and good works were also done so as to also be seen by others, or so as to make their Pastor happy, etc. then these kinds of works will be burned away. For the Lord will bring to light those hidden things to light, and He will manifest the counsels of the heart.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, 2Cor 1:21

"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
(2 Corinthians 1:21).

The first half of verse 21 says, "God established us with you in Christ.
We know that the word "establish" according to the Dictionary says that it can mean to: "Make a church." How fitting. Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the foundation, and the prophets and apostles are laid next as a part of that foundation (Ephesians 2). The saints in the New Covenant (that follow Jesus, the prophets and apostles) are built upon this foundation. While we cannot obey without first trusting in Christ as our Savior, Jesus talks about a foundation in Matthew 7 (that would naturally follow in having a belief in Jesus). He says that if any man does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand (i.e. a wrong foundation) and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

We are told to endure (resist) temptation and we will receive the crown of life (See: James 1:12). So doing righteousness is not something that is automatically forced upon us after being saved or born again.. We are told to endure temptation as a part of salvation. In short, I am told to ENDURE temptation (or resist temptation) in James 1:12. Yet, you appear to teach that not resisting temptation is not a part of eternal life because you say that works or holiness is a condition of the saved believer. So there is no need to ENDURE (or resist) in the belief you have describe so far. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Even though Philippians 2:12 tells us to do that very thing).

In the Parable of the sower, the one who produced much fruit is implied that he had root (unlike those who fell away). The ones who fell away did not have a root in doing righteousness (Which is by Jesus Christ - Romans 13:14, John 15:5). Proverbs 12:3 says, "A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved." For he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). This is the root (or the established foundation), they did not have.

The latter half of verse 21 says God has anointed us. Well, just because somebody has been anointed, does not mean that God cannot later depart from them. We see this with King Saul. He was anointed king (1 Samuel 10:1). Yet, later, we learn that God departed from Saul (1 Samuel 16:14).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: 2Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13;

"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
(2 Corinthians 1:22).

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Ephesians 1:13).

2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13 are both saying the same thing in regards to the fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14 says,
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11 says,
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11 says,
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27 says,
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32 says,
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16 says,
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10 says,
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10 says,
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14 says,
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

Source:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: Eph 1:5,

Ephesians 1:5 says,
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, "

28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30).

Predestinate means to foreordain or predetermine for a specific purpose. According to Romans 8:29, God predetermined or ordained us to be conformed to the image of his Son by us naturally doing good works.

For Ephesians 2:10 says,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Not every one who is pre-ordained to conform to the image of the Son by doing good works because it uses the word "should" in Ephesians 2:10 in regards to walking in good works (suggesting a possibility and not a condition after the fact of being saved).

As for being an adopted child of the Lord in Ephesians 1:5:
Well, just because one is called a "child of the Kingdom" does not mean one is saved. For Jesus says,

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12).

We have to remember, Jesus says He will send His angels and gather out of His kingdom all who offend (sin) or do iniquity (do many sins) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " (Matthew 13:41-42).

A child of God is defined by their doing righteousness and loving their brother; However, a child of the devil is one who does not righteousness (or he that does not love his brother).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

So the idea that sinful works will be burned at the Judgment seat of Christ is not biblical. We have to walk uprightly with the Lord in this life. A believer cannot justify doing sin even on occasion. Remember, it only took one sin to separate God from Adam and Eve; And the devil's lie to Eve was, "Yea ye shall not surely die." (See: Genesis 3). For the devil was trying to convince Eve that she would not die if she broke God's law. The same lie is being pushed by the enemy today.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved:
Eph 1:11, Eph 1:14

Ephesians 1:11 says,
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Ephesians 1:14 says,
"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Both Ephesians 1:11, and Ephesians 1:14 talk about our inheritance.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we know that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance on living a prodigal and riotous sinful life away from his father. When the son came home and was sought his father's forgiveness, he was said to be "dead" and he was "alive again." This means that the prodigal son was dead spiritually, and he became alive again spiritually. For the father also said that his son was "lost," and now he is "found" (See: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). In other words, just because a new believer has obtained an inheritance, does not mean they cannot waste their inheritance and go prodigal and fall away (salvation wise) due to sin (Also see: James 5:19-20).

We know that the servant of the Lord who was faithful over little, was told this:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

However, the unprofitable servant was told this:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

I mean, why would the Lord tell us this if being faithful was an automatic thing of being saved? Surely, the Lord here is warning us to be faithful vs. being an unprofitable servant (who was cast into outer darkness).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved:
Heb 7:25;

Hebrews 7:25 says,
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

This is not an intercession that Christ does without any action on our part.

For Hebrews 4:16 says,
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

John says in his 1st epistle:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. If one is disobeying Christ on occasion (and not as a lifestyle), they are still technically not obeying Him.

So Hebrews 7:25 is not teaching OSAS (or Once Saved Always Saved).
For the person who confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved:
1Pet 1:3-5;

1 Peter 1:3-5 says,

3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Verse 3 does not specifically mention anything about Eternal Security. It just talks about how we were begotten by His mercy, and in how we have a lively hope.

Verse 4 that deals with our inheritance from God, I addressed in post #257.

Verse 5 says we are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Faith is shown true or genuine by one's works (James 2:18).
We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
We are told to CONTINUE in faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).
We are told to CONTINUE in the grace of God (See: Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
We are told CONTINUE in the love of God (See: Jude 1:21).
We are told CONTINUE in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (like the Jews) (See: Romans 11:21-22).
So it is not something that is a "condition of the saved."
A believer is able to be kept by the power of God only through exercising their faith.
So this passage is not teaching Once Saved Always Saved.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2019

bcbsr said:
Salvation by Works Christians typically confuse the condition for salvation with the condition of the saved: 1John 3:9,10; 1John 3:6;

If living holy, not sinning, or doing good works was an automatic condition of the saved, then why does John command us to, "Sin not"? (See: 1 John 2:1). Why does 1 John 3:11 tell us to do the following? “We should love one another.” (1 John 3:11).
1 John 4:11 says, “if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” 1 John 4:21 says, “And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.” We ought to lay down our lives for the brethren (1 John 3:16).

Why all the words like "should," ought," and "commandment" if loving one's brother is automatic to the condition of every saved believer?

Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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