Loversofjesus_2018

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Loversofjesus_2018

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No, he is not above me in any way. Officially we are equals.
Ok maybe I’m wrong. Define what greater means. I always thought greater meant that one person is clearly better or above the other. If I’m wrong I have no problem with changing my position.... so help me understand when someone says this person is the greater of the two what are they actually saying?
 
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Not David

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So are you saying that the Church gets to clarify what Jesus meant when he talked and the rest of us are to just except what they say?
Well, the Bible says The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
 
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Ok maybe I’m wrong. Define what greater means. I always thought greater meant that one person is clearly better or above the other. If I’m wrong I have no problem with changing my position.... so help me understand when someone says this person is the greater of the two what are they actually saying?
I have already explained. He is better known. He has a much better worldwide reputation. But we are equals. I can’t explain it better than I already have.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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I have already explained. He is better known. He has a much better worldwide reputation. But we are equals. I can’t explain it better than I already have.
Ok cool, we just have to different definitions of what greatest means. I respect that. Thanks for the conversation.
 
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Jen35

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Jesus is born of God and since God is the father, Jesus isnt the father, he is the son born of his father God, God who is spirit. They are one in the same connected by the same spirit. Just like when we are born again we become indwelled with the holy spirit and connected to them also. It's almost like a unity of people built into one body. I could be wrong but that's how I see it..
 
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Are we one in the same sense that the persons of the Trinity are One? Are you and me the same being? If my wife tells me she loves me, is she saying that to you too? It seems to me like we're separate human beings, and that's just the start of the problems. You and me can disagree with each other and pursue different ends - we aren't even one in purpose, will or mind, much less our substance.
Spiritually, like a drop of water in an ocean. If you are being love, both will be more agreeable.
 
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We can be one with God through grace but Jesus is one with the Father by nature.
It is your nature too. When my father became literally illumined, he was doing, loving, seeing others as he felt God/Christ would, sending out love until a spiritual breakthrough occurred. Jesus marveled at people's lack of faith in his home town because they knew his entire family saying, is not this the carpenter's son? Our faith is what is lacking and the deep love and awareness that we are indeed made in God's image! Commentary on “The Light” – The Realm by Daniel Mears
 
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Hi, I am new here and a new Christian. I wanted to know about the trinity. People say the 3 persons of the trinity are equal. My opinion at the moment is that the Father is at the top of the trinity over the son and holy spirit. Is this wrong to believe.

The scriptures give us a glimpse of what the Trinity is and we can certain things for sure on the basis of them like:

The Father is not the Son
The Father is not the Spirit
The Son is not the Spirit
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God

God is One in Three Persons.

Some people stress the verses that speak in terms of a progression of authority from Father (Creator) -> Son (Redeemer) to Spirit (Comforter/Advocate). Others stress the eternal dynamic love relationship / dance of the THree in One God. (Read the book the "Shack" as a good example of this).

Generally wars get fought over the hierarchical interpretation e.g. the filioque (does the Spirit progress from the Father or the Father and the Son).

But at the end of day this is a mindblowing revelation of the nature of God that should require a certain humility on our part. Religious efforts to box and label God are going to fail cause clearly we are dealing with a Being of a totally different sort that we are used to
 
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Neogaia777

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Hi, I am new here and a new Christian. I wanted to know about the trinity. People say the 3 persons of the trinity are equal. My opinion at the moment is that the Father is at the top of the trinity over the son and holy spirit. Is this wrong to believe.
No, it's not... And is actually scriptural...

And not to mention "logical" as well...

Something that seems to fall on deaf ears here a lot of the time...

John 14:28- "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I am.

And is greater than the Holy Spirit as well...

But they (those three) are the trinity, and while all three may not be each equal, each three are equally God, or are each equally our God to us, or for us, ect...

Each three were in the beginning and only those three, with the Father God, before anything was made, ect, all things after that and following were created by them (working together) and all things after that were created or made by them, and through them (by God the Father) and for them (the other two)...

Jesus is the (only) image (we will ever see) of the invisible God, or them, or the other two (of the trinity)... (which are Spirit and cannot be "seen" persay), (but you can only see them at work, or the affects of their work, but they themselves cannot be seen, except Jesus only)...

And, on a side note, they may each all three be equal "now", but I still don't know that for sure yet...

One of the ways in which they were not all three each always equal was in knowledge, and experience...

God Bless!
 
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There are many false definitions of the Trinity in this thread. God is not 3 forms or three modes; God is three Persons intrinsically having the same essence, nature or substance that is known as God. All three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal & co-eternal & share the same glory. They are not separate parts of God because God is not divided into parts but they are distinct as to Divine roles they play yet all have the same nature that is described as God. There is one Being of God not 3 beings but 3 Persons having the one nature that only describes God.

There are not 3 gods separate from one another; that is polytheism. There are so many false or heretical teachings concerning who God is & that is why one must be careful when they describe the Biblical Trinity. Many get it wrong.



Here is a brief description that makes it easier to understand the Triune nature of God.

A Brief Definition of the Trinity | Alpha and Omega Ministries









All of the cults & false religions have one thing in common: they all deny the...Trinitarian Christian doctrine...As Walter Martin put it in his book, The Kingdom of the Cults: "One prominent trait of all non-Christian religions & cults is their pointed denial of the Scriptural doctrine of the Trinity & the Deity of Jesus Christ."

Yet, despite such opposition, the church has unashamedly taught this doctrine throughout its history because it is found in the Bible.

When Christians say God is a Trinity, they mean “God is 1 God in 3 Persons.” The word “Trinity” is from the Latin word Trinitas, a combination of the word tri meaning “three” & unus meaning “one.” God is Triune...He is 1 God in 3 distinct Persons that are each fully God.

It needs to be said that to explain the Trinity is to explain a mystery. There are things about the Trinity that cannot be known but that does not mean that we can't [comprehend revealed truth about it in Scripture.] To say this another way, the Trinity is a mystery but not a contradiction. To quote from Wayne Grudem,

"Scripture does not ask us to believe in a contradiction. A contradiction would be, There is 1 God & there is not 1 God, or God is 3 persons & God is not 3 persons or even God is 3 persons & God is 1 person. But to say “God is 3 persons & there is 1 God” is not a contradiction.

In order to know more about the Scriptural revelation of this mystery, here are two ways to look at the Trinity. [I will post 1st one right now]

Ontology is the study of essence & the Ontological Trinity is the study of the essence of the Trinity...referring to the idea that “each member of the Trinity has the same essence or nature.” All 3 members of the Trinity are the same in their worth, nature & greatness. In the words of the Nicene Creed:

"I believe in 1 God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven & earth & of all things visible & invisible; And in 1 Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father..."

It is a way of looking at what each member of the Trinity is composed of and how the members view one another apart from creation. It is the study of the Godhead apart from mankind. To say this another way, it is the study of what the three members have in common. It is what the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit all share together. When that is considered, four facts about the Ontological Trinity are brought to light.

1. Each member of the Trinity is FULLY GOD. (not 33 1/3% for each or another combination)
[Jesus is not a PART of God--polytheism--He IS God but not the Father as to same Person]

Every one of the three Persons of the Godhead has the fullest essence of God at all times. There was never a time when they were not God & there never will be a time when they are not God. None of the members was ever created...Mt 7:21; Jn 1:1-4; Acts 5:3,4

[Jn 4:24 God IS SPIRIT (essence or nature each member intrinsicly is): spirit of the Father--Mt 10:20; spirit of the Son--I Pet 1:11, the Holy Spirit--Eph 2:18

2. Each member of the Trinity is FULLY EQUAL.

(Phil 2:6 [Jesus] existing in the form of God did not consider being EQUAL WITH GOD a prize to always grasp but instead made Himself of no reputation having thus taken on also the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man [voluntarily also taken on Himself human limitations for a time] see: Philippians 2:6 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Acts 5:3,4 ...How is it Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the HOLY SPIRIT ... What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to GOD.”

Jn 5:17,18 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always working to this very day, and I too am working. For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself EQUAL WITH GOD.

3. Each member of the Trinity is FULLY UNITED. I Pet 1:2; Lk 10:21

All of the members of the Trinity are in full union with each other. In other words, God is one. God is not 3 gods in 1 person; that would be tritheism. God is not 3 gods in 3 people; that would be polytheism. God is one God in 3 Persons. As such, He is one. He is perfectly unified. He is not divided in any way. Every one of the three Persons works in perfect co-operation with all the other Persons. They never work against themselves. They live & move & exist in perfect harmony & have done so for all eternity because God is one.

4. Each member of the Trinity is FULLY DISTINCT [as to Person] Jn 17:5 Thy Own Self; Lk 22:42: Not My Will but Thine be done; Jn 14:26;15:26;Acts 5:3 Holy Spirit is a Comforter, One Who testifies & teaches & One Whom you can lie to, all attributes of a Person or personality

Each Person is set apart. While they share the same essence, nature, unity and equality, they do not share the same identity of selfhood. They are unique in their own special way. As Herman Bavinck summarizes in The Doctrine of God:

These 3 persons are really distinct; they are not 3 parts of one whole nor 3 names for one & the same object. The Father alone is Father, the Son alone is Son, the Spirit alone is Spirit. A lot of ink has been spilled over how each member is different & what their particular roles are but no one can deny that each member of the Trinity is His own Person. To highlight this, there were several times in Scripture when all 3 members did 3 different things at the same time. One of those times is at Jesus’ baptism in Matthew 3:13-17 & notice that the Son was baptized, the Spirit descended on Him like a dove & the Father spoke from Heaven all at once. All 3 Persons were active at the same time & involved in Jesus’ baptism in Their own special way.

Another example of all three members doing different things at the same time is at creation. At that event, Gen 1:1 says that the Father was creating. Gen 1:2 & Job 26:13 says that the Spirit hovered over the waters and beautified the heavens and John 1:3 says that through the Son all things came into being.

So again, all three members were doing different tasks but accomplishing the same goal. To be even more specific, they were doing the same thing in three different ways. All three Persons of the Godhead were working together in perfect harmony to create the earth. One God in three Persons, acting in full co-operation.
 
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Here is another good explanation of the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity as found in the Bible.

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?

The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how he relates to us, and how we should relate to him. But it also raises many difficult questions. How can God be both one and three? Is the Trinity a contradiction? If Jesus is God, why do the Gospels record instances where he prayed to God?

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.

One God, Three Persons


The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Philippians 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3–4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays? The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons.

For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), he cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.

In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10–11). John 1:1 affirms that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that he was “with God,” thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (see also John 1:18). And in John 16:13–15, we see that although there is a close unity between the three persons, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards himself as “I” while he regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “you.” Likewise, the Son regards himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “you.”

Often it is objected, “If Jesus is God, then he must have prayed to himself while he was on earth.” But the answer to this objection lies in simply applying what we have already seen. While Jesus and the Father are both God, they are different Persons. Thus, Jesus prayed to God the Father without praying to himself. In fact, it is precisely the continuing dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 5:19; 11:41–42; 17:1ff) that furnishes the best evidence that they are distinct Persons with distinct centers of consciousness.

Sometimes the Personhood of the Father and Son is appreciated, but the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is neglected. Sometimes the Spirit is treated more like a “force” than a Person. But the Holy Spirit is not an “it,” but a “he” (see John 14:26; 16:7–15; Acts 8:16). The fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal force (like gravity), is also shown by the fact that he speaks (Hebrews 3:7), reasons (Acts 15:28), thinks and understands (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), wills (1 Corinthians 12:11), feels (Ephesians 4:30), and gives personal fellowship (2 Corinthians 13:14). These are all qualities of personhood.

In addition to these texts, the others we mentioned above make clear that the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Personhood of the Son and the Father. They are three real persons, not three roles God plays.

Another serious error people have made is to think that the Father became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. Contrary to this, the passages we have seen imply that God always was and always will be three Persons. There was never a time when one of the Persons of the Godhead did not exist. They are all eternal.

While the three members of the Trinity are distinct, this does not mean that any is inferior to the other. Instead, they are all identical in attributes. They are equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and all other qualities.

Each Person is fully God. If God is three Persons, does this mean that each Person is “one third” of God? Does the Trinity mean that God is divided into three parts?

The doctrine of the Trinity does not divide God into three parts. The Bible is clear that all three Persons are each one-hundred-percent God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each fully God. For example, Colossians 2:9 says of Christ, “in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form.” We should not think of God as a “pie” cut into three pieces, each piece representing a Person. This would make each Person less than fully God and thus not God at all. Rather, “the being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 1994, page 255). The divine essence is not something that is divided between the three persons, but is fully in all three persons without being divided into “parts.”

Thus, the Son is not one-third of the being of God; he is all of the being of God. The Father is not one-third of the being of God; he is all of the being of God. And likewise with the Holy Spirit. Thus, as Wayne Grudem writes, “When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone” (Ibid., 252).

There is only one God. If each Person of the Trinity is distinct and yet fully God, then should we conclude that there is more than one God? Obviously we cannot, for Scripture is clear that there is only one God: “There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21–22; see also Isaiah 44:6–8; Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4–5; 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Kings 8:60).

Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons.

If there is one passage which most clearly brings all of this together, it is Matthew 28:19: “Make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” First, notice that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguished as distinct Persons. We baptize into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Second, notice that each Person must be deity because they are all placed on the same level. In fact, would Jesus have us baptize in the name of a mere creature? Surely not. Therefore each of the Persons into whose name we are to be baptized must be deity. Third, notice that although the three divine Persons are distinct, we are baptized into their name (singular), not names (plural). The three Persons are distinct, yet only constitute one name. This can only be if they share one essence.

Is the Trinity Contradictory?


This leads us to investigate more closely a very helpful definition of the Trinity which I mentioned earlier: God is one in essence, but three in Person. This formulation can show us why there are not three Gods, and why the Trinity is not a contradiction.

In order for something to be contradictory, it must violate the law of non-contradiction. This law states that A cannot be both A (what it is) and non-A (what it is not) at the same time and in the same relationship. In other words, you have contradicted yourself if you affirm and deny the same statement. For example, if I say that the moon is made entirely of cheese but then also say that the moon is not made entirely of cheese, I have contradicted myself.

Other statements may at first seem contradictory but are really not. Theologian R.C. Sproul cites as an example Dickens’s famous line, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” Obviously this is a contradiction if Dickens means that it was the best of times in the same way that it was the worst of times. But he avoids contradiction with this statement because he means that in one sense it was the best of times, but in another sense it was the worst of times.

Carrying this concept over to the Trinity, it is not a contradiction for God to be both three and one because he is not three and one in the same way. He is three in a different way than he is one. Thus, we are not speaking with a forked tongue — we are not saying that God is one and then denying that he is one by saying that he is three. This is very important: God is one and three at the same time, but not in the same way.

How is God one? He is one in essence. How is God three? He is three in Person. Essence and person are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than he is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. There would only be a contradiction if we said that God is three in the same way that he is one.

So a closer look at the fact that God is one in essence but three in person has helped to show why the Trinity is not a contradiction. But how does it show us why there is only one God instead of three? It is very simple: All three Persons are one God because, as we saw above, they are all the same essence. “Essence” means the same thing as “being.” Thus, since God is only one essence; he is only one being, not three. This should make it clear why it is so important to understand that all three Persons are the same essence. For if we deny this, we have denied God’s unity and affirmed that there is more than one being of God (i.e., that there is more than one God).

What we have seen so far provides a good basic understanding of the Trinity. But it is possible to go deeper. If we can understand more precisely what is meant by essence and person, how these two terms differ, and how they relate, we will then have a more complete understanding of the Trinity.

Essence and Person


Essence. What does essence mean? As I said earlier, it means the same thing as being. God’s essence is his being. To be even more precise, essence is what you are. At the risk of sounding too physical, essence can be understood as the “stuff” that you “consist of.” Of course we are speaking by analogy here, for we cannot understand this in a physical way about God. “God is spirit” (John 4:24). Further, we clearly should not think of God as “consisting of” anything other than divinity. The “substance” of God is God, not a bunch of “ingredients” that taken together yield deity.

Person. In regards to the Trinity, we use the term “Person” differently than we generally use it in everyday life. Therefore it is often difficult to have a concrete definition of Person as we use it in regards to the Trinity. What we do not mean by Person is an “independent individual” in the sense that both I and another human are separate, independent individuals who can exist apart from one another.

What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because he regards the Son as a “You,” even though he regards himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” (Grudem, 255; I believe that this is a helpful definition, but it should be recognized that Grudem himself is offering this as more of an explanation than definition of Person).
(to be continued)
 
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Mathetes66

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How do they relate? The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: “The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and — using a common illustration — as the open palm differs from a closed fist” (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God [Banner of Truth Trust, 1991], page 303).

Because each of these “forms of existence” are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding himself as “I” and the others as “you.” Nonetheless, these three Persons all “consist of” the same “stuff” (that is, the same “what” or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one “what” but three “who’s.”

The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains,

But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God. . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God . . . the only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of ‘being’ but a difference of ‘relationships.’ This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human ‘person’ is a different being as well. Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons. (253–254)

Trinitarian Illustrations?

There are many illustrations which have been offered to help us understand the Trinity. While there are some illustrations which are helpful, we should recognize that no illustration is perfect. Unfortunately, there are many illustrations which are not simply imperfect, but in error.

One illustration to beware of is the one which says, “I am one person, but I am a student, son, and brother. This explains how God can be both one and three.” The problem with this is that it reflects a heresy called modalism. God is not one person who plays three different roles, as this illustration suggests. He is one Being in three Persons (centers of consciousness), not merely three roles. This analogy ignores the personal distinctions within God and mitigates them to mere roles.

Summary and Application
Let us quickly review what we have seen:

The Trinity is not belief in three gods. There is only one God, and we must never stray from this.
This one God exists as three Persons.
The three Persons are not each part of God, but are each fully God and equally God. Within God’s one undivided being there is an “unfolding” into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three Persons. The distinctions within the Godhead are not distinctions of his essence and neither are they something added onto his essence, but they are the unfolding of God’s one, undivided being into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three real Persons.
God is not one person who took three consecutive roles. That is the heresy of modalism. The Father did not become the Son and then the Holy Spirit. Instead, there have always been and always will be three distinct persons in the Godhead.
The Trinity is not a contradiction because God is not three in the same way that he is one. God is one in essence, three in Person.

The Trinity is first of all important because God is important. To understand more fully what God is like is a way of honoring God. Further, we should allow the fact that God is triune to deepen our worship. We exist to worship God. And God seeks people to worship him “in spirit and truth” (John 4:24). Therefore, we must always endeavor to deepen our worship of God — in truth as well as in our hearts.

The Trinity has a very significant application to prayer. The general pattern of prayer in the Bible is to pray to the Father through the Son and in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:18). Our fellowship with God should be enhanced by consciously knowing that we are relating to a tri-personal God!

Awareness of the distinct role that each Person of the Trinity has in our salvation can especially serve to give us greater comfort and appreciation for God in our prayers, as well as helping us to be specific in directing our prayers. Nonetheless, while recognizing the distinct roles that each Person has, we should never think of their roles as so separate that the other Persons are not involved. Rather, everything that one Person is involved in, the other two are also involved in, one way or another.
 
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