chevyontheriver

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THIS IS A CATHOLIC SUBFORUM. PLEASE ACT ACCORDINGLY.

I was listening to Msgr Steward Swetland today and he had what I consider to be a good point. I disagree with him fairly often but on this one I had to comment.

He noted that in this country there have been 60 million abortions. Thats 60 million missing people, people who would have been here, growing up, going to school, working, paying taxes, having children.

One of the arguments against immigration is that it's just too many people. But if we had allowed those 60 million aborted babies to live would we have complained the same way? We have a 60 million person hole in our society. Can't we use legal immigration to fill that void? There IS room for them, at least if we are consistent about our position against abortion. 60 million vacancies.

Then I wondered about reparation for the sins resulting from abortion. Might taking on more immigrants be a partial reparation. We do have those missing people, and filling the hole with immigrants would repair the hole.

I am not for illegal immigration. But I am for immigration done lawfully and with the intent of acceptance of the ideals of this country. We know our immigration laws are woefully out of date. Can we find a way to actually fix them? Or do we need to drain the Washington swamp entirely first.

Msgr Swetland made another point, about political parties, which is that the American Solidarity Party actually comes close to Catholic social teaching, which of course it actually does explicitly try to do.
 
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chevyontheriver

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You should of put this in the main forum. This is an excellent post.
I respect the idea but I wanted it here to avoid some of the extremes. A Catholic at least can respect that people do have a right to immigrate (pope Pius XII I think) but also have a respect for law and order.

Because this is a Catholic subforum we have some protections from the worst. And if someone not a Catholic wants to contribute I would welcome that.
 
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Michie

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Same rules apply here. Ask David. It's not an open debate forum outside of Catholic perspective on the topic. He was supposed to add a new note on that.
I respect the idea but I wanted it here to avoid some of the extremes. A Catholic at least can respect that people do have a right to immigrate (pope Pius XII I think) but also have a respect for law and order.

Because this is a Catholic subforum we have some protections from the worst. And if someone not a Catholic wants to contribute I would welcome that.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Same rules apply here. Ask David.
Well, I think in a Catholic forum it would be possible to say that a totally anti-immigration approach would not be Catholic, so Protestants trying to argue that case might be informed that their position is out of bounds. I don't know. I may have created a hot potato.
 
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Michie

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No. I'm just saying it is not an open debate forum like the many we already have at CF. We cannot really divide our faith from our politics or anything else in our lives. It seems counterproductive to not discuss this from a Catholic perspective in a Catholic forum. Anyone coming in from a different perspective is just going to be an exercise in chasing our own tail. And there are a ton of forums on this site to do that everyday. From a Catholic perspective or two Catholics that disagree, it could be fruitful. We need a stronger faith based Catholic pov here and all over CF as far as I am concerned.
 
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archer75

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I'm not sure whether my chatter is welcome on this one, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I think it's a nice idea. I'm not sure how you would get political support for it, but that's another matter.

We certainly have room.

Would these 60 million be, in effect, random in terms of education, qualifications, reason for wanting to move to the US?
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm not sure whether my chatter is welcome on this one, but I'm going to give it a shot.
If both serious and respectful of Catholic teaching and provocative of good thought, sure.
I think it's a nice idea. I'm not sure how you would get political support for it, but that's another matter.
Immigration law is woefully out of date. And neither big party will cooperate to fix it. So maybe we need to replace our politicians. Easier said than done.
We certainly have room.

Would these 60 million be, in effect, random in terms of education, qualifications, reason for wanting to move to the US?
I think we COULD first raise our general immigration quotas, figure out how to regularize some of the illegals who are productive members of society now (after a qualifying period maybe). We should let in proven talented people but also people who are impoverished but show some promise of making good use of citizenship. And every real refugee we can truck on over.

It will be costly, but there will also be economic benefits just as there would have been benefits to the 60 million of us snuffed before birth. Overall I think the economics are positive. Socially, I think we benefit in particular by bringing in Hispanic immigrants. All in good order, legally, moderately slowly, honoring that great lady in New York harbor.

But this would need an agreement in Washington DC, which isn't going to happen. Not soon anyway. My posting about it is to make the point that we have a vacancy due to abortion and we could consider filling it rather than continuing the vacancy. The idea would counter that of people who say it would be too excessive to allow all of those people in.
 
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I don't think that most americans or catholics are anti-immigration. I think that most know and understand that this country is based on immigration. But I believe that politics are the impetus for the latest wave of mass immigration that this country has never seen. How can anyone not be saddened by the picture we saw of that young child who drowned along with her father. But I have to ask, why did her father leave his pizza business in el salvador. CNN reports because he wanted his own home. Was this man seeking asylum or seeking his own home. How many do not have homes in this country, now. Evidently, as CNN reports, he was living with his wife and mother. Why did he feel he had to take that little two year old with him. Many questions. But many men are now taking children with them to gain entry, why. How one picture can be used to politicize. It's the talk of the debates tonight!

In addition, I can't see how immigration makes amends for the 60 million babies that were aborted and those who will be murdered at birth. If you want to use that argument, why hasn't the void of those 60 million aborted babies made room for more services for the poor, uneducated, mentally ill, disabled, on an on already in this country. Maybe we should abort and kill more babies because it seems like we haven't murdered enough to take care of business.

Goodbye.
 
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chevyontheriver

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In addition, I can't see how immigration makes amends for the 60 million babies that were aborted and those who will be murdered at birth.
Depends on what kind of 'amends'. Reparation for past sins? That would be worthy. But filling the void could and should have economically and socially positive effects.
If you want to use that argument, why hasn't the void of those 60 million aborted babies made room for more services for the poor, uneducated, mentally ill, disabled, on an on already in this country. Maybe we should abort and kill more babies because it seems like we haven't murdered enough to take care of business.
Looks like it has not worked out so well for the Japanese, who are in a demographic winter they may never come out of. They have elderly who die alone. They are rich by some standards but one wonders how they would be doing if they actually had children to sustain their population. We, in this country, do actually benefit from immigration now, replacing some of those we lost to abortion. And we would actually hurt ourselves if we deported every illegal.

More people actually generate more economic benefit. People are good. We killed a lot of them and impoverished ourselves in the process.
 
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joymercy

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According to author Sherry Weddell of the Catholic evangelization book she wrote, Forming Intentional Disciples, over 60% of Hispanics are Catholic according to a poll she quoted in her book.

Most Hispanics are very hard working Catholic and value families and children.

My genuine question is how on Earth can we provide all the care they need at the moment?

Hopefully, if we take them in, they can help to work hard and repair this countries crumbling roads and infrastructure for example as far as possible jobs.

But then again, I look at Skid Row in LA where I really did live for one week homeless, and the sickness and disease that is killing the people there, and I think the main culprit is drug abuse-and where are these drugs coming from if not mostly from south america?

Makes me wonder if these people who are fleeing are running from mass executions at the hands of the cartels, so then if they are here in america, will they be great at law enforcement if employed there?

Wouldn't they want to stop what is killing america, their new home? I would hope they would only really enjoy working for the DEA for example.

Really hard working, physically fit and determined people, would make for great employees in many badly needed jobs for which we are short handed, this is my point.

Give me just over 6 minutes of your time to see what is killing many cities in america right now:

 
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joymercy

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skid row is running rife with sickness and disease, and there are other examples too of devastation such as seattle....mostly from drugs......and what is the cause? loss of hope? so how can we repair that loss of hope while stemming the tide of drugs coming in?
 
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joymercy

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there is a tidal wave of majority Catholic Hispanics who want to come to america!

Catholics beating down our doors!

Did not a lot of visitations from Mary appear in Latin America?

Maybe Catholic Latin Americans can turn our country around.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I would think that they would be the very best at stopping drug abuse in major cities as that is what they are running from!
I think the sooner we regularize the otherwise law abiding illegal aliens the sooner they can give voice against the drugs and violence they see. While they are irregular they cannot speak out against gangs and drugs.

Our society quietly ignores illegals because we need their work to keep the society going. But we treat them like an underclass and they are harassed by the law rather than being protected by the law.
 
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Michie

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I know in my town we have a big population of Hispanic people and I have befriended a lot of them. Many Catholic. Many have left for Protestant Churches as well. One had the nerve to try to evangelize my priest in the grocery store! Lol! Anyway, the ones I know are very hard working. Business owners and a lot of us frequents those businesses. They are very family oriented. I enjoy the contributions they make to my area. I just do not like looking at them as a replacement for the victims of abortion. There is no way to turn that tragedy into a good thing.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I know in my town we have a big population of Hispanic people and I have befriended a lot of them. Many Catholic. Many have left for Protestant Churches as well. One had the nerve to try to evangelize my priest in the grocery store! Lol! Anyway, the ones I know are very hard working. Business owners and a lot of us frequents those businesses. They are very family oriented. I enjoy the contributions they make to my area. I just do not like looking at them as a replacement for the victims of abortion. There is no way to turn that tragedy into a good thing.
No, the tragedy of abortion is not a good thing. It can't be turned into a good thing. Nor is there a 'silver lining' to it. But how can we repair a bit of the damage, mitigate, do reparations for the evil done. We can pray. But that still leaves a 60 million person hole in our society. Those of us who are able can have a few more children. But I can't do that any more, or more technically my wife can't. We can try to change hearts and minds. We can try to close down the abortuaries. I think we can also bring in people who are escaping poverty and sometimes danger.

The Catholic Church is trying to do well by Hispanics. I'm not sure how well they are really doing. Lots of them leave and become Protestants, so something isn't working. The Democratic Party is failing them. The Republican Party gave up on them except for Cubans in Florida. Our society in general is happy for them to do dirty work but not happy enough to have them be full members of society.
 
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Michie

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No. I disagree. The majority of us no matter what political stripe they affiliate with are willing for them to be full members of society and have no issue with it except that they are doing it illegally which enables the criminal element as well. There lies the fear. It is not about population numbers unless a person is pro-choice. (Which is the party line). It's about fear. I do not listen to the party line concerning this issue. I go from personal experience and we have had dear friends with a business deported. Sadly. What it comes down to is less virtue signaling and thoughtlessness. And more getting down to the nitty gritty of putting our noses to the grindstone and as you said, reforming the system. A lot of these people do not have the time and luxury of going back to their country of origin and waiting for this unnecessarily slow system of welcoming those to this country that genuinely need it. We need to fix that first. And now. But I have no respect for this as a political issue because it is just empty words. Abortion has nothing to do with it. There is room. But who wants to move into a room that welcomes an outsider and kills and uses its own people as a commodity and a sacrament of sorts for women? It is a very convoluted thought process imo. We have those so concerned for lives depending on borders and none for those at home.
 
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Michie

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No. I disagree. The majority of us no matter what political stripe they affiliate with are willing for them to be full members of society and have no issue with it except that they are doing it illegally which enables the criminal element as well. There lies the fear. It is not about population numbers unless a person is pro-choice. (Which is the party line). It's about fear. I do not listen to the party line concerning this issue. I go from personal experience and we have had dear friends with a business deported. Sadly. What it comes down to is less virtue signaling and thoughtlessness. And more getting down to the nitty gritty of putting our noses to the grindstone and as you said, reforming the system. A lot of these people do not have the time and luxury of going back to their country of origin and waiting for this unnecessarily slow system of welcoming those to this country that genuinely need it. We need to fix that first. And now. But I have no respect for this as a political issue because it is just empty words. Abortion has nothing to do with it. There is room. But who wants to move into a room that welcomes an outsider and kills and uses its own people as a commodity and a sacrament of sorts for women? It is a very convoluted thought process imo. We have those so concerned for lives depending on borders and none for those at home.
 
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