Christians funding an appeal of a christian dismissed. Is it ethical or outrageously immoral

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Kate30

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Well... that's the problem of being a figure of public interest, and making tons of money from being a figure of public interest: what you say tends to be of... public interest.


"The others" - everyone that Christians don't like - have been persecuted, attacked, tortured, killed before. Sadly there are still those who still do it and don't want anything more than make it common again.

It's time they are stopped... as well as those who think that not having a multi-million dollar job or being excluded from a high-prestige university is "persecution".
Freodin the history of the world and of the church have certainly seen some bloody and gruesome things happen. That’s the reality of the world we live in. Not much you or I can do about that for we still live in a fallen world. except share the love and good news of Jesus Christ. But the reality is we have we our freedom to enjoy because of a Christian heritage. What would you replace it with you think? It’s nearly 00:00 I must sleep. As to what others earn, everyone must give a account of how they have used.
 
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creslaw

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It's time they are stopped... as well as those who think that not having a multi-million dollar job or being excluded from a high-prestige university is "persecution".

The Australian Christian Lobby has stated that Israel Folau's case is only one of more than 60 they have dealt with. Depriving people of their livelihood because of their religious beliefs I would call persecution.
Folau's money is often mentioned but the vast majority of the many who have contributed to his defence know about his income, so why did we contribute? I'll let you think on that for a while
 
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Freodin

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Freodin the history of the world and of the church have certainly seen some bloody and gruesome things happen. That’s the reality of the world we live in. Not much you or I can do about that for we still live in a fallen world. except share the love and good news of Jesus Christ.
Like telling those who disagree with your worldview that they should be fed to the lions. Or be eternally tortured for who they love.
I think I may have slightly different views on what is and what isn't "good news".

But the reality is we have we our freedom to enjoy because of a Christian heritage.
Even if I was to accept that as correct - which I don't - so what? Because your clan gave us "freedom", it has the right to take it away for those it deems unworthy?

What would you replace it with you think?
That what has replaced it in reality: freedom of conscience, tampered with the acknowledgement of the rights of others.
If that hadn't happened - and it was dearly bought - the chances are very good that you would not have the "freedom" to be the kind of Christian that you are... regardless what kind you are. And the ones denying you that right would be... other Christians.

It’s nearly 00:00 I must sleep. As to what others earn, everyone must give a account of how they have used.
Good night from the other side of the globe.
 
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Freodin

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The Australian Christian Lobby has stated that Israel Folau's case is only one of more than 60 they have dealt with. Depriving people of their livelihood because of their religious beliefs I would call persecution.
Folau's money is often mentioned but the vast majority of the many who have contributed to his defence know about his income, so why did we contribute? I'll let you think on that for a while
Perhaps you should think on that for a while: there are people who haven't seen a million dollars in all their life. People who go through their daily life without having to spend more than a few hundred dollars a month.

If losing an income of several million dollars - and we don't even speak of the assets he owns - is "losing your livelihood"... then I would start to think about the life you are leading.

Someone is asserted to have said: "In order to go to heaven, sell everything you have and give it to the poor."
I have no idea who that was. Some kind of hippy, most likely.

And, sorry, I cannot answer your question about your reasons to donate money to a rich guy. I still value my posting privileges here.
 
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creslaw

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Perhaps you should think on that for a while: there are people who haven't seen a million dollars in all their life. People who go through their daily life without having to spend more than a few hundred dollars a month.

If losing an income of several million dollars - and we don't even speak of the assets he owns - is "losing your livelihood"... then I would start to think about the life you are leading.

Someone is asserted to have said: "In order to go to heaven, sell everything you have and give it to the poor."
I have no idea who that was. Some kind of hippy, most likely.

And, sorry, I cannot answer your question about your reasons to donate money to a rich guy. I still value my posting privileges here.
I pointed out that ACL have dealt with more than 60 such cases.
The reason so many - including myself - contributed to the defence fund is because of those 60+ people ... this is not just about Folau, it is a test case.
And it is as well to keep in mind that Folau could have quietly deleted his post and kept his income but he chose to make an issue out of it because of those facing similar situations now and in the future.
 
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KCfromNC

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KCfromNC I think it would be laughable If it was only a joke. But it’s not a laughable matter that’s the problem. Israel lost his his livihood on what he believes on his own instagram account .

As others have stated, this isn't true. The fact you need to try to conflate having religious beliefs with attacking certain minority groups on social media is pretty telling.

Just because you may not like someone’s point of view doesn’t give you the right to have them dismissed from their place of employment he merely quoted what the bible says.

I didn't fire him. His employer did for repeatedly violating the terms of his employment.

What you may not realise is that it brings everyone’s freedom of belief into question not only religious freedom.

Weird, I've never had any issues. Maybe it is because I don't use social media to tell certain minority groups that they deserve to be tortured for who they are, though.

I mean, I get it might feel good to seem to be fighting for religious freedom, but let's keep in mind the actual facts of the situation.

Well if not do reflect apon George Orwell’s 1984 if you have read.

Observant readers might notice that 1984 was about oppressive government censorship, not the actions of private companies.
 
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KCfromNC

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A school situation involves children ... children that are obliged to attend school by law.

Where are children obliged to attend Catholic schools?

Protection of children by their parents is not controversial.

Weird, I wasn't aware that violation of religious freedom suddenly became non-controversial if some adults were OK with it.

A religious school exists for the purpose of teaching children in a specific moral context.

The Rugby association in question also operates under a specific moral context. The player in question was fired for repeated violations of that context.
 
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Zoii

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A school situation involves children ... children that are obliged to attend school by law. Protection of children by their parents is not controversial.

A religious school exists for the purpose of teaching children in a specific moral context.

A professional sporting club does not involve children and it allows for the expression of a diversity of religious beliefs. It allows people to have personal views about (eg) abortion, euthanasia, climate change, homosexuality ...
Think through what you are advocating:
That if a christian goes into the locker room and tells team mates week in and week out how evil they are - the club should be OK with that - its not appropriate to discipline and the players should acknowledge his religious freedom.

The ticket collector at the train station screams at every passenger that they are going to hell for the reasons Folau states - but thats OK according to your rationale and he must not be disciplined - its religious freedom

The Moslems at the....OK - U get it by now. Think through what you are advocating.

Now think about Folau - was there a better way for him to extol the virtues of christianity and still be a good member of the rugby community

What would you espouse the more constructive pathway to be - Vilify? OR give a positive christian message and be supportive of the community that has always supported him.
 
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Zoii

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Isn't it interesting that when Israel Folau has his day in court he will place his hand on the Holy Bible and say " "I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

The very Bible he was quoting in his post: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

We now have the Bible being construed as "hate speech".
Ive been to court. There was no bible to swear on. I just gave my word as a human being.
 
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Zoii

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keith99

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I suspect that this Christian fixation on sin is the real nub of the problem. Perhaps if you focused on your own sins and stopped pointing the finger at everyone else....
OB

Didn't some Jewish guy say something about seeing the log in your own eye rather than the splinter in your neighbor's eye?
 
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creslaw

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It is interesting to note that Israel Folau has put out a statement supporting the right of others to attack him and disparage his faith. Seems he actually believes in freedom of speech and freedom of religion ... unlike his critics.

I remember the fuss about introducing graphic images on cigarette packaging some years ago. It was not saying smokers are evil or deserve to die a horrible death, it was trying to prevent horrible deaths. Whatever your theology of sexuality, Folau's motive was coming from his real concern for people ... but of course those hostile to Biblical Christianity will continue to chant "hate speech" to silence anyone who does not conform to their ideology.
 
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KCfromNC

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It is interesting to note that Israel Folau has put out a statement supporting the right of others to attack him and disparage his faith.

Who is disparaging his faith?

Seems he actually believes in freedom of speech and freedom of religion ... unlike his critics.

Which critics are you talking about, specifically? Let's see some names and quotes saying that he doesn't have a right to speak his mind.

I remember the fuss about introducing graphic images on cigarette packaging some years ago. It was not saying smokers are evil or deserve to die a horrible death, it was trying to prevent horrible deaths.

Was it saying that they'd be tortured for eternity if they didn't change? Because if not, it seems off topic in this thread.

Whatever your theology of sexuality, Folau's motive was coming from his real concern for people ... but of course those hostile to Biblical Christianity will continue to chant "hate speech" to silence anyone who does not conform to their ideology.
It's almost as if freedom of expression applies to more than just conservative Christian views. Who knew?
 
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Kate30

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Where are children obliged to attend Catholic schools?



Weird, I wasn't aware that violation of religious freedom suddenly became non-
As others have stated, this isn't true. The fact you need to try to conflate having religious beliefs with attacking certain minority groups on social media is pretty telling.



I didn't fire him. His employer did for repeatedly violating the terms of his employment.



Weird, I've never had any issues. Maybe it is because I don't use social media to tell certain minority groups that they deserve to be tortured for who they are, though.

I mean, I get it might feel good to seem to be fighting for religious freedom, but let's keep in mind the actual facts of the situation.



Observant readers might notice that 1984 was about oppressive government censorship, not the actions of private companies.
As others have stated. Really. Australians have done just exactly that. That’s why the Australian people have spoken with over 2 million dollars and still counting to defend Israel along with their own rights and freedoms as well. You didn’t fire him. KCNC no one said you ever did. Weird because you have never had any problems. Well as you said you don’t use your social media that way. But you don’t mind expressing your veiws here. So what’s your point. Just when when it suits you : ) As I said Israel never violated any terms . And they know that. That’s why Australian Rugby finds itself in court. Israel never had any problems with the AFL club prior to switching to ruby union. They knew what he believed. His AFL couch speaks highly of him even if he doesn’t agree with Israel’s beliefs. And he has publicly stated that he nor the club had no problems with Israel. And finally KCNC it’s not just about feeling good about some religious cause it’s about everyone’s legal rights to express what they believe on their own media social sites including Christian forums. I mean why can’t employees just dismiss anyone for being on this site as well. Or if you advertise this site on your social media page. That’s what you call discrimination. That’s what you call losing your freedom to think and being able to express opinions as you wish.
 
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Kate30

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Like telling those who disagree with your worldview that they should be fed to the lions. Or be eternally tortured for who they love.
I think I may have slightly different views on what is and what isn't "good news".


Even if I was to accept that as correct - which I don't - so what? Because your clan gave us "freedom", it has the right to take it away for those it deems unworthy?


That what has replaced it in reality: freedom of conscience, tampered with the acknowledgement of the rights of others.
If that hadn't happened - and it was dearly bought - the chances are very good that you would not have the "freedom" to be the kind of Christian that you are... regardless what kind you are. And the ones denying you that right would be... other Christians.


Good night from the other side of the globe.
Hi Freodin good day to your part of the globe. You say Like telling those who disagree with our world veiw that they should be fed to the lions. Well yes we have had some experience with loins ourselves. But Not to worry unlike your clan we only take atheists to visit the zoo : ) As to eternal punishment and the lake of fire. Yes there are different viewpoints amongst the church to what hell is. But not to worry that shouldn’t concern you. As atheists don’t generally believe in the bible. Hope you are all are right on that one. Or you might all get a really Big fright if your not. The freedom of conscience tampered with the acknowledgment of rights of others. Equality Liberty and fraternity was not that what the French Revolution taught. Sadly it was a mere changing of the guard the old replaced by the new. But it was a nice thought. Actually those rights you speak of have always been there ranging from the Bible, Aristotle and Plato and who could forget Buddha and Confucius and so many more. Freodin those freedoms you have mentioned have functioned rather well at times . Freodin I think that It’s not really laws and principles that are at fault. It just seems that there are two natures continually at war within ourselves that does affect the whole essence of the human race. One seeks to love and the other seeks to destroy which often no moral law or goodness cannot restrain. Just my thoughts. Hope your side of the globe a sunny one for you today.
 
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Zoii

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It is interesting to note that Israel Folau has put out a statement supporting the right of others to attack him and disparage his faith. Seems he actually believes in freedom of speech and freedom of religion ... unlike his critics.

I remember the fuss about introducing graphic images on cigarette packaging some years ago. It was not saying smokers are evil or deserve to die a horrible death, it was trying to prevent horrible deaths. Whatever your theology of sexuality, Folau's motive was coming from his real concern for people ... but of course those hostile to Biblical Christianity will continue to chant "hate speech" to silence anyone who does not conform to their ideology.
Well thats interesting - Can you find a single quote showing rugby disparaging christianity? Folau I believe is attempting to make it seem that way but its not.
 
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Zoii

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This case has very much attracted the attention of ALL employers. To date religious groups have been the ONLY employing group that has secured exemption under industrial law, to sack an individual on grounds of sexuality, religious background, or if their speech is contrary to the mission statement of that religious order.

Its rather ironic therefore, that christians should be lobbying to have this law scrutinised in the courts. This is likely to go to the high court. Employers want clarification - can they prohibit a person from damaging their reputation by restricting what they say on certain topics.

The courts are likely to review these matters and it will effect everyone including christian institutions that, do date, have enjoyed a level of prejudice that other employers have not been granted. The irony is that now a level playing field for all employers may be established. If thats in favour of being able to say what you want, and be whoever you are... then Folau will regain his employment - and christian schools will NOT be able to refuse to employ a gay person or discipline the atheist science teacher who debunks creationism.

It'll be also interesting the tack taken by Folau. He'd very foolish to argue equal opportunity ie sacked because he is christian. If that gets upheld it spells significant problems for christian institutions who have enjoyed exemption under equal opportunity laws. They can, for example, refuse to employ a woman or gay person as a priest. This is not open to any other form of employment. So while rugby Im sure could do without this headache, many gay and female practitioners Im sure will be rubbing their hands and keen to see the outcome - as will we all.
 
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Zoii

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These are the religious exemptions which the Folau case has put in the spotlight and, if it goes to the high court, may be deemed unconstitutional.

The SDA religious exemption also covers several other specific activities including:
• the ordination or appointment of priests, Ministers of religion or members of any religious order (para 37(a))
• training or education of persons seeking ordination or appointment as a priest, Minister of religion or member of any religious order (para 37(b))
• selection of persons to perform duties or functions in connection with any religious observance or practice (para 37(c)), and
• accommodation provided by a religious body (ss23(3)(b)). These activities do not have any further qualification (ie it is not necessary to show that the activity conforms to the doctrines, tenets or beliefs of the religion or is necessary to avoid injury to the religious susceptibilities of adherents etc).

These exemptions also apply to all grounds of discrimination covered by the Act.

The SDA also contains specific exemptions for educational institutions established for religious purposes (section 38) in relation to the employment of staff and the provision of education and training. Specifically, section 38 provides exemptions for:
• discrimination on the grounds of sex, marital status or pregnancy in the employment of members of staff or contract workers (ss 38(1) and (2)), and
• discrimination on the grounds of marital status or pregnancy in connection with the provision of education or training (ss 38(3)).

Ive found this debate here bemusing that Christians here have argued on the grounds of discrimination, when religious groups are the only ones who actually have secured in law the capacity to discriminate.

Do you know any other employer who sacks on the grounds they are female or pregnant or married?
 
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Freodin

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Hi Freodin good day to your part of the globe. You say Like telling those who disagree with our world veiw that they should be fed to the lions. Well yes we have had some experience with loins ourselves. But Not to worry unlike your clan we only take atheists to visit the zoo : )
I also said "Or to be eternally tortured for who they love".
"Your clan" also burned people on the stake for having different opinions, holding different views of the world... or even worshipping the same God is a slightly different way.
The people who send Christians to the lions were... believers. Theists. Not christians, but believers in deities and the divine.
They did what they did not out of spite or hatred, but because they were completely convinced that this was what the gods demanded.

Not quite "my clan".

As to eternal punishment and the lake of fire. Yes there are different viewpoints amongst the church to what hell is. But not to worry that shouldn’t concern you. As atheists don’t generally believe in the bible. Hope you are all are right on that one. Or you might all get a really Big fright if your not.
It's all about giving people a big fright, to scare them into submission. It doesn't work anymore once you realize that the whole concept is... empty.
But that is not the problem that atheists have with the idea of "hell".
It is the idea - the human idea, promoted by humans, defended by humans, implemented by humans - that people deserve to be in hell. And they sell this idea as "love".

Consider this: Let's say I think Christians should be fed to the lions. Not because out of hate... but because you deserve to be fed to the lions. For being a Christian. I would love to spare you this fate... and you could do it, if you just dropped this evil belief. But you won't. You are stubborn. Reprobate. Your heart is hardened. You deserve to be fed to the lions. I'm really sorry that this is the case... but I am just telling you the truth.

That's not very nice. It's in fact quite horrible if you imagine it... and it is not even the worst way to go that humans have come up with.

But we won't stop there. You are so much more evil than that... being fed to the lions is to good for you. You will just die and that's that. You deserve a much worse fate.
So we will make sure that, even while you are being mauled and bitten and slashed and eaten by lions, you won't die. We will keep you alive, for another round. Over and over and over again. No escape. No rescue. No saviour comming for you. Just eternal torture.
And you deserve it. For being a Christian.

That's even less nice. It is too horrible to imagine. Not even I, who think you should be subjected to this, like to imagine it. I am really sorry that this will happen to you. Oh, it pains me so much that you will go through this. But you deserve it. For being a Christian.

Regardless of what I may feel or think about it: you deserve it. This is what will happen to you, inevitably, if you continue in your ways. The ways you think are fine... but they aren't. They are abominable... and you deserve to be horribly tortured for stubbornly keeping to them.

Now that would be about the worst idea that I think any human could come up with about another human being. Any human being... absolutely no exception.
But in reality, it is just an idea. It won't happen. Hurray!

Yet there is a rub. A tiny little problem. If you really think that another person is so absolutely evil that they deserve that monsterous fate... how will it influence your real behaviour towards them? How are you going to treat them?
Are you going to demand that they should be punished right now, with worldly justice? Because, if they are that evil... surely you cannot simply let them go on? Are you just going to treat them like lesser beings? People who do not deserve the same treatment like the "good" people do?

If you go around and preach that people deserve to be in hell, you are not showing love. You are showing selfishness.

The freedom of conscience tampered with the acknowledgment of rights of others. Equality Liberty and fraternity was not that what the French Revolution taught. Sadly it was a mere changing of the guard the old replaced by the new. But it was a nice thought.
Considering that the "old guard" was the theocratically dominated society of medieval Europe, I don't think this is a point in your favour.
And it is not that this "nice thought" was tried and discarded... the humanistic movement and the enlightenment were, with all their mistakes and failures, the basis of our modern society.

Actually those rights you speak of have always been there ranging from the Bible, Aristotle and Plato and who could forget Buddha and Confucius and so many more. Freodin those freedoms you have mentioned have functioned rather well at times . Freodin I think that It’s not really laws and principles that are at fault.
Yes... so many more. Humans. More humans who have thought about things and came to certain conclusions. Some nice, some not so nice. Some correct, some false. Some helpful, some horrendous. Human.

It just seems that there are two natures continually at war within ourselves that does affect the whole essence of the human race. One seeks to love and the other seeks to destroy which often no moral law or goodness cannot restrain.
I agree. The major driving force behind human history is human nature. Good or bad. The best things that have ever happened to humans was done by other humans. The worst things that have ever happened to humans was done by other humans.
All of it is of human orgin. It won't change, on a general scale.
But as long as we don't recognize that it is all of human origin, we will keep making the mistakes that are based on the idea that some of it is "divine".

Just my thoughts. Hope your side of the globe a sunny one for you today.
Could be a little less sunny. Heat wave. Though I think an Australian would just laugh about the mild temperatures. ;)
 
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KCfromNC

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Can't help but notice no one wants to speak out about how this parallels Catholic schools firing people for talking about being gay on social media.

Anyway...

As others have stated. Really. Australians have done just exactly that. That’s why the Australian people have spoken with over 2 million dollars and still counting to defend Israel along with their own rights and freedoms as well.

They're welcome to spend their money as they see fit. That doesn't mean that their cause is justified.

Weird because you have never had any problems. Well as you said you don’t use your social media that way. But you don’t mind expressing your veiws here. So what’s your point.

That your hypotheticals don't seem to line up with reality. Perhaps we should discuss the actual case rather than worrying about made up stuff which isn't actually happening.

As I said Israel never violated any terms .

You might want to do a bit of research before saying things like this.

Israel never had any problems with the AFL club prior to switching to ruby union. They knew what he believed. His AFL couch speaks highly of him even if he doesn’t agree with Israel’s beliefs. And he has publicly stated that he nor the club had no problems with Israel.

That's great and all, but he wasn't fired for having problems with his coach so I don't see the relevance.

And finally KCNC it’s not just about feeling good about some religious cause it’s about everyone’s legal rights to express what they believe on their own media social sites including Christian forums.

What rights are those, specifically? I don't have the right to express what I believe here - read the rules that prohibit me from posting in certain areas because of my (lack of) religious beliefs.

I mean why can’t employees just dismiss anyone for being on this site as well. Or if you advertise this site on your social media page. That’s what you call discrimination.

No. Making conservative Christians follow the same rules as everyone else isn't discrimination.

That’s what you call losing your freedom to think and being able to express opinions as you wish.
No, it means that you can't expect your employer to ignore you breaking their policies just because you are religious.
 
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