Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Danthemailman · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Thanks for looking up all those scriptures, but I still don't see where sanctification is called a process.

We are initially sanctified in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event, but a process.

Danthemailman · Jun 25, 2019

bcbsr said:
The sense is that he professed to be sanctified and consequently identified with the visible church. This was a nominal Christian. There are lots and lots of such Christians in the visible church. The real believers are the "we" he refers to in Heb 10:39 which is why he speaks differently of them.

Amen! If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a genuine Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the visible church in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has renounced his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the visible church in the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer, but a "nominal" Christian.

bcbsr · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Not necessarily. The "we" could be a pledge. In other words, we pledge to not sin willfully.

"we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Heb 10:39 Is obviously not a "pledge". Furthermore it says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 which also obviously is not a pledge but a description of those born of God.

bcbsr · Jun 25, 2019

Danthemailman said:
The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a genuine Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained.

Yes, that could very well be the case. In any case Heb 10:39 presents a difficulty for the "losing salvation" idea, so the person must not have been saved to begin with.

CharismaticLady · Jun 25, 2019

Phil W said:
In Post #962, I'm responding to your "the unregenerated, unreborn ARE sanctified".
Perhaps you mistyped your message?

Yes, thank you; I fixed it. Check #952.

CharismaticLady · Jun 25, 2019

Danthemailman said:
We are initially sanctified in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event, but a process.

Yay! Dan's the winner in finding what I've asked about.

I'll have to study it further to see if I agree with you that sexual abstinence is at anytime a "process." That would mean weaning yourself off committing sexual sin gradually. That is giving yourself permission in committing willful sexual sin. I agree more that it is a one time event, along with justification. "Sanctification as a process" is what is being taught in many liberal churches, but that is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Jude 1:4.

I do agree there is a process, but it is in growing fruit out of the base of sanctification, which I have found to be called "glorification," taking on the divine nature of God. Godliness is the goal, and "glorification" is the process. That is much more than overcoming sin, as that power was given at the beginning when we were cleansed of ALL sin and reborn of the Holy Spirit. There is no gradual shedding of sin, but instantaneous freedom from sin, and then the process of becoming more and more like Christ begins - the process of becoming righteous and holy, the only two groups that will enter heaven. Revelation 22:11.

Here is the process of taking on the divine nature to godliness.

2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped (past tense) the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Wordkeeper · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Yay! Dan's the winner in finding what I've asked about.

I'll have to study it further to see if I agree with you that sexual abstinence is at anytime a "process." That would mean weaning yourself off committing sexual sin gradually. That is giving yourself permission in committing willful sexual sin. I agree more that it is a one time event, along with justification. "Sanctification as a process" is what is being taught in many liberal churches, but that is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Jude 1:4.

I do agree there is a process, but it is in growing fruit out of the base of sanctification, which I have found to be called "glorification," taking on the divine nature of God. Godliness is the goal, and "glorification" is the process. That is much more than overcoming sin, as that power was given at the beginning when we were cleansed of ALL sin and reborn of the Holy Spirit. There is no gradual shedding of sin, but instantaneous freedom from sin, and then the process of becoming more and more like Christ begins - the process of becoming righteous and holy, the only two groups that will enter heaven. Revelation 22:11.

Here is the process of taking on the divine nature to godliness.

2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped (past tense) the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Bodily appetites are a part of clinging to Egypt. The danger of thinking only bodily appetites are sin is that God considers even having a job, a bank account, a health plan as sin!

He wants us to be fulfilled, by leaving serving mammon for treasure that rusts, food that only fills for a few hours, to serve God for heavenly treasure that never stops satisfying. Else what are these verses, chopped liver?

Matthew 6
24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as towhat you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alivetoday and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

CharismaticLady · Jun 25, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Bodily appetites are a part of clinging to Egypt. The danger of thinking only bodily appetites are sin is that God considers even having a job, a bank account, a health plan as sin!

He wants us to be fulfilled, by leaving serving mammon for treasure that rusts, food that only fills for a few hours, to serve God for heavenly treasure that never stops satisfying. Else what are these verses, chopped liver?

Bodily appetites are part of the old carnal nature, and the reason for being born again of the Spirit and taking on the divine nature.

~Zao~ · Jun 25, 2019

God considers it sin if you think that fate and coincidence is the driving force in your life rather than being directed by Him.

Wordkeeper · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Bodily appetites are part of the old carnal nature, and the reason for being born again of the Spirit and taking on the divine nature.

Which means giving up everything and depending on Christ for life.

CharismaticLady · Jun 25, 2019

LoreneDD said:
God considers it sin if you think that fate and coincidence is the driving force in your life rather than being directed by Him.

That would be New Age.

~Zao~ · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
That would be New Age.

Leaning on your own understanding?

Danthemailman · Jun 25, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Yay! Dan's the winner in finding what I've asked about.

I'll have to study it further to see if I agree with you that sexual abstinence is at anytime a "process." That would mean weaning yourself off committing sexual sin gradually. That is giving yourself permission in committing willful sexual sin. I agree more that it is a one time event, along with justification. "Sanctification as a process" is what is being taught in many liberal churches, but that is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Jude 1:4.

I do agree there is a process, but it is in growing fruit out of the base of sanctification, which I have found to be called "glorification," taking on the divine nature of God. Godliness is the goal, and "glorification" is the process. That is much more than overcoming sin, as that power was given at the beginning when we were cleansed of ALL sin and reborn of the Holy Spirit. There is no gradual shedding of sin, but instantaneous freedom from sin, and then the process of becoming more and more like Christ begins - the process of becoming righteous and holy, the only two groups that will enter heaven. Revelation 22:11.

Here is the process of taking on the divine nature to godliness.

2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped (past tense) the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I never said anything about giving yourself permission in committing willful sexual sin or weaning yourself off of committing willful sexual sin gradually or turning the grace of God into licentiousness. That is a straw man argument. To abstain from sexual immorality is in the present tense and possessing his own vessel in sanctification and honor is an ongoing process of effort in restraining oneself from sexual sin and is not a one time event. The temptation to commit sexual sin doesn't just automatically go away and even having lustful thoughts is sexual sin.

Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness. The process of becoming more and more like Christ is in regards to ongoing sanctification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by those who teach works righteousness. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Wordkeeper · Jun 25, 2019

Danthemailman said:
I never said anything about giving yourself permission in committing willful sexual sin or weaning yourself off of committing willful sexual sin gradually or turning the grace of God into licentiousness. That is a straw man argument. To abstain from sexual immorality is in the present tense and possessing his own vessel in sanctification and honor is an ongoing process of effort in restraining oneself from sexual sin and is not a one time event. The temptation to commit sexual sin doesn't just automatically go away and even having lustful thoughts is sexual sin.

Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness. The process of becoming more and more like Christ is in regards to ongoing sanctification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by those who teach works righteousness. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

How are we sanctified?

Danthemailman · Jun 25, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
How are we sanctified?

We are sanctified/set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. This happens the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Wordkeeper · Jun 25, 2019

Danthemailman said:
We are sanctified/set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. This happens the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Wasn't the great works God did in Egypt and the desert to free Israel from depending on her job to provide for her in earthly life, and begin to depend on God for help to become blessings to the world? To make her untainted by unrighteous mammon, for His use?

Phil W · Jun 25, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Brother,

Christ’s imputed Righteousness Of His life and and Death are our only acceptable Justification. Sanctification... Shaping of our soul... is indicative of our need ro be shaped by Him. He who claims he needs no shaping is denying the very purpose of the Holy Spirit.

It is our descriptions of sanctification that separated us.
I see it as a one time cleansing, consecration, atonement, setting apart from the world, application of the cleansing blood of Christ.
You see it as an ongoing 'shaping', molding, and whatever else you feel will never be completed on earth.
Jesus came to do, be, our sanctification.
It has been completed with His crucifixion and resurrection.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
Why put it off for later?

Phil W · Jun 25, 2019

Grip Docility said:
That moment when the gnat strainer misses a camel and words intended to correct a point actually bolster the point that one is attempting to correct.

This is like saying that bears aren’t what was being discussed, but hairy, strong jawed, long clawed animals that like caves, scratch their backs on trees and fish in streams.

Again you apply the word sanctification to growth in grace and knowledge.
If you have been cleansed you are sanctified.
Were you not cleansed?

Phil W · Jun 25, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Agreed.

Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

It seems you can see that sanctification means "cleanse", and the verse above shows it was already done.

Phil W · Jun 25, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Ezekiel 23:11-21
And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms…

Hosea 4:15
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

Jeremiah 3:8
Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear and prostituted herself as well.

If these verses are enough for you to address Israel as a woman...so be it.
Israel is often referred to as the wife of God, as is the church in the NT, but I personally have trouble assigning a gender to an inanimate thing unless I am LIKENING the country or church to God's spouse.

Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

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