The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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FineLinen

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Antiphonal Worship

You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

A.T. Robertson Word Pictures=

Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

Let's speak today regarding our Fathers cherished purpose in the Son of His love, our Lord and Saviour of all mankind, Christ Jesus our Lord.

"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.
 
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Saint Steven

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Now the automated system tells me I am avoiding. (as expected)
After telling me I have failed to answer.
Preceded by assuming I was obligated to accept assignments from it.
All while proclaiming that mere humans cannot grasp such lofty ideas.
What will the machine say now?
 
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Hillsage

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What you call "ETERNAL HELL theology" has a biblical basis. What you are presenting is a difference of opinion served up on an emotional platter. It would be great if there was no hell, but we can't create such a situation with wishful thinking. Not much difference from my perspective between what you guys call a fear-based salvation and the shame-based emotionalism of Universalism. How dare I accuse God of being worse than Hitler? What's wrong with me? -- Seriously?

But as I've shared before Steve the false pen of the scribes has been very much alive for 1500 years (concerning ETERNAL HELL too). And your 'biblical basis' is simply an area where you need to study more than you have IMO. BTW, you never even commented on my Religious Encyclopedia quote saying Universalism was the majority view for 5-600 years until the church of Rome took over. And that's where your bible errors started too. They were extracting indulgences and $ for the RC hierarchy based upon purgatory, a sister of the hell theology they promoted. A belief still flourishing today. But it's also a view propagated by the church you wouldn't even think of being apart of today, would you? And who has said there is no hell? I haven't said that and neither has FL. So why are you even saying that is our position, because it is not?

The verse you shared begins with the word "for", so I wanted to see what it was there for. Seems to be that fear-based idea you are teaching against.

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”
And I have no problem with that verse 'in context' because it simply confirms what I've already shared as to what God consumes. He has "salted me with fire" and anointed me with "the Holy Spirit and fire". And I quoted several scriptures to back up my POV too associated with him being a consuming fire. But you aren't even addressing any of that. Why? You simply read the verse through the lenses of believing in ETERNAL HELL so that's the conclusion you come to. But I do understand where you are at because you're doing JUST LIKE I DID until I was first introduce to UR at a retreat in Arkansas in the early 70's. It was a retreat where 9 of our home group traveled 500+ miles to attend. When it was taught there I never even had the internet or any easy way to research this doctrine. For 10 years I sought teachings and studied it just hoping it was true. I put on different lenses and have never read the bible the same since Steve.
 
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Hillsage

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Didn't you already tell me that the word "hell" is nowhere to be found in the Bible?
That's not true either STEVE. I never said hell is nowhere to be found in the bible. I said there are bibles which don't even have "the word" (english word) "HELL" in them. WHY? Because they use the THREE different words in the GREEK which ALL get translated into HELL in YOUR STINKING ENGLISH version. And you know what? They're in my favorite versions also. But I know the truth behind every one of those words that you obviously prove here you don't. And it appears to me that your acting afraid to even find out why we believe as we do. God taught me a long time ago to 'Seek the truth wherever it may lead you.' A thousand bible translations and denominations can't be wrong...right. :doh:
Kind of a moot point. There is more than one way to say eternal punishment.
So quit waffling. You are the one saying HELL is in YOUR bible so just go with your bible and quit being afraid of being proved something. Tell me how many times Paul ever used any of the three Greek words that got translated as HELL when he was a scripture writing "prophet, apostle, teacher" of the gospel. Just do that for me. If you don't know how to do that then just be honest and tell me. I'll still share what I want you to know. I want you to know why I believe as I do, even if you don't.
 
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Hillsage

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Here's a question I thought of today.
I'm trying to establish my mindset on this as I go. I have never debated the subject before. But I knew that the OP didn't set well with me, as you may have expected. Here's the question.
Just hang with me and quit trying to debate. Let us reason together because I did pay the price to read so much before finally saying 'this is the truth'. I fully believe it is one of the most important truths, and that's actually why I came to the Christian forum world years ago. I was willing to enter the lions den just to see if I could hold my ground with them concerning my UNORTHODOX doctrinal box. And UNORTHODOX is what the name of this forum used to be, before being called CONTROVERSIAL. But I suppose both are still pretty true.

We are told very clearly in the first chapter of John that the right to become the children of God is tied to receiving Christ. How then can the lost become children of God, if it is tied to receiving Christ? I doesn't require any faith to receive Christ in the afterlife when you are face to face.
You mean....like doubting Thomas received Christ as "MY LORD AND MY GOD"? Is that the kind of faith you say is needed...when one SEES AND BELIEVES like Thomas? You do believe Thomas was saved right? But read verse 13 into your context.

John 1:11-12
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—[/QUOTE]
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That's why I keep quoting from verses which show how one must be "predestined, chosen, called, drawn, ordained to believe" before they ever can believe. And that is up to Him not you. And as for 'faith' to believe, where does that come from? It is a gift of God you don't receive until He calls you to the gospel and Christ.

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/rhema of God.

And rhema doesn't mean 'the bible' it means a spoken word from God. Not to say that a 'written scripture' can't become a spoken rhema/word of God, if the Holy Spirits enlightens your heart to see/hear.

MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word/rhema that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


EPH 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

So that means, like a good Calvinist believes, GOD determines every person who's going to this eternal hell that most of the church believes in. And on this point I too am Calvinist, God determines who is going to go through the purgative fire of the Holy Spirit on this side of glory and who is going to go through it on the other side of glory. But in the end His plan is for ALL of his creation. And the devil He created out of his omniscience is merely a tool in His hand, just like he was for Job. As well as those turned over to SATAN in the NT.

1TI 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


Now you can read that and say it means these Christians who've shipwrecked their faith in God should be tortured by Satan here til the day they die, and then God gets the glory of sending them to hell for eternity. But for me it means the devil's job for God is always to find our weak points as Christians and exploit them until you are robbed killed or destroyed for believing his lies, and not the promises of God. But after Satan has beaten these two guys like red headed stepchildren, I'm of the persuasion that they will repent of their blaspheme. And if they don't???? Well, as a good Calvinist again I believe in OSAS...like you right? But that's about the extent of my Calvin leanings. The rest of me is Armenian. Two half truth doctrines both claiming they're 100% right......WRONG!!!!


Way past my bed time. Nite bro.
 
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FineLinen

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Saint Steven

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And who has said there is no hell? I haven't said that and neither has FL. So why are you even saying that is our position, because it is not?
I think a big part of my problem here is that I have walked in at the end of the opera. I can stand politely and applaud while others holler BRAVO!, but I missed the beginning of the show and didn't read the program.

Furthermore, I didn't see, or overlooked, the basic presentation of this whole view at the beginning of this thread. Everyone seemed to jump in with objections, which was answered with reams of word definitions. None of which was terribly helpful.

I don't understand your position because it seems to have been lost in the shuffle. (scuffle?) I need to start at square one. If that is on an earlier page, I can go there. If not, a simple breakdown would be most helpful.

I seem to have a talent for creating work for you. (just what you need) Perhaps if I take a blundering stab at what I think you are saying, you could make a correcting statement. That might make this easier on you. I appreciate you staying with me on the discussion and not dismissing me or talking to me like a machine.

This is what I have gathered so far. Little of which I can establish as reliable or biblical. (not to say it isn't, I just can't confirm it)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You seem to be saying that God's long-term goal is that He can reconcile all things in creation to himself. Though the whole mess is fallen, He will bring it back to where it started when it was "good". (as created) He chooses some to reconcile with in this lifetime and the others to be condemned to hell where they will be restored by the punishment of it. (which was chosen for them) Christ's death was to pay for the redemption of all, whether they receive it in this lifetime or not. In time hell will be emptied in some way. Meaning there is no "forever burning hell". Therefore, you object to such teaching, especially as a fear tactic in evangelism, or a way to control parishioners. (with the threat)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is what I have gathered so far. But I can't confirm the validity of the position. Part of me hopes you are right, another part of me has serious reservations about that prospect. This would cause a domino effect concerning several things. So, I would have all that to work through as well. I still connect somewhat to the poster that used the word "farce" to express his complete frustration over this whole issue if it is valid. I wouldn't state it the way he did, but I empathize with his feeling of frustration about it. Maybe that helps to clarify my agreement with him.
 
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Saint Steven

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BTW, you never even commented on my Religious Encyclopedia quote saying Universalism was the majority view for 5-600 years until the church of Rome took over.
Not sure how I could validate that information. An interesting claim, but I'm not sure what to do with it. Is there any biblical proof, or is that part of the coverup? (HellGate) The gates of hell...
 
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Hillsage

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I think a big part of my problem here is that I have walked in at the end of the opera. I can stand politely and applaud while others holler BRAVO!, but I missed the beginning of the show and didn't read the program.
Read my red signature line below. If you are an opera goer,you can walk in at any point...'late'. And join right in wherever you are at. I've done that multiple times here.

Furthermore, I didn't see, or overlooked, the basic presentation of this whole view at the beginning of this thread. Everyone seemed to jump in with objections, which was answered with reams of word definitions. None of which was terribly helpful.
Pretty much every one of those ETERNAL HELLERS have their mind made up before they come and they are not seeking 'the truth' they're defending their indoctrinated POV. When FL hits them with more reading material in one post than they are willing to even look at, and then he does it over and over again, they're left standing here as a standing punch drunk claiming we won, we won. No they haven't, they have never even studied to show themselves anything but brainwashed.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. And I remember my first 'theological argument'...at about age 7-10??? My Baptist buddy from across the street and I were sitting in his front yard playing after church and dinner. They must have talked 'Catholics' that morning in his Sunday school or something. Anyway, with all the love of a friend he asked me; "D,.....are you a Christian?" To which I fired back; "I'm a CATHOLIC." He asked again, sorry he had offended me; "I know, I know...but...are you...a CHRISTIAN?" To which I, even more aggressively blasted; "I'M A CATHOLIC!!!" No truer words could be said, because "No", I wasn't a Christian, I was a brainwashed RC. But, my mom, who was also a brainwashed RC, was also a Christian. A nun led her to the Lord when she was asking questions concerning her confirmation. Which is the NT equivalent of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit....not initial salvation.

I don't understand your position because it seems to have been lost in the shuffle. (scuffle?) I need to start at square one. If that is on an earlier page, I can go there. If not, a simple breakdown would be most helpful.
The thing that would help you most, is read just one 'aspect' of this voluminous deception. You admitted not wanting to read a whole bunch. Well then you'll never find the pearl of great price, because this field has been around for 1500 years. That's why I told you about BIBLES that don't have the word HELL in them. I know you're familiar with the Young's Literal Translation...and that's one. And you know how many times the word ETERNAL is in that translation? Once. And it's the Greek word ADIOS, the only Greek word which meets our definition of ETERNAL as the 'church' believes and preaches.

I seem to have a talent for creating work for you. (just what you need) Perhaps if I take a blundering stab at what I think you are saying, you could make a correcting statement. That might make this easier on you. I appreciate you staying with me on the discussion and not dismissing me or talking to me like a machine.

This is what I have gathered so far. Little of which I can establish as reliable or biblical. (not to say it isn't, I just can't confirm it)
I had faith in you Steve. I even told FL that in a PM....along with the fact that his posts are, and I quote;

"But you also have an ‘opacity of presentation’ and a ‘fire-hose delivery’ approach which simply must be tempered for those seeking lambs who see dimly and hear poorly concerning this subject IMO."
But he still loved me after. :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You seem to be saying that God's long-term goal is that He can reconcile all things in creation to himself. Though the whole mess is fallen, He will bring it back to where it started when it was "good". (as created) He chooses some to reconcile with in this lifetime and the others to be condemned to hell where they will be restored by the punishment of it. (which was chosen for them) Christ's death was to pay for the redemption of all, whether they receive it in this lifetime or not. In time hell will be emptied in some way. Meaning there is no "forever burning hell". Therefore, you object to such teaching, especially as a fear tactic in evangelism, or a way to control parishioners. (with the threat)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We don't believe reconciliation is a 'single' deal. It's a two way deal. God already reconciled us to Him by having Jesus pay the price for EVERYONE'S sins. Isn't that what you say when witnessing to an unbeliever? "Jesus died for YOUR SINS." That half of reconciliation is done.

2CO 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

So in the eyes of God ALL sinners ARE reconciled, ALL are atoned for, and our ministry message is to tell them that.

1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The lie of the church is you aren't reconciled to God unless you repent and ask. But that is not 'you being reconciled to Him' that is you 'accepting His reconciliation for you'. And 'that' is Ultimate Reconciliation (my favored term for this doctrine).

ROM 5:11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.

That is what I have gathered so far. But I can't confirm the validity of the position. Part of me hopes you are right, another part of me has serious reservations about that prospect. This would cause a domino effect concerning several things. So, I would have all that to work through as well. I still connect somewhat to the poster that used the word "farce" to express his complete frustration over this whole issue if it is valid. I wouldn't state it the way he did, but I empathize with his feeling of frustration about it. Maybe that helps to clarify my agreement with him.
And it is the part that I bolded above which reveals the heart I know you have, which is in agreement with God's heart for his creation...IMO. :oldthumbsup:
 
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FineLinen

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FathersLoveLetter.com

"By entering through faith into what God has always wanted to do for us—set us right with him, make us fit for him—we have it all together with God because of our Master Jesus.

And that’s not all: We throw open our doors to God and discover at the same moment that he has already thrown open his door to us. We find ourselves standing where we always hoped we might stand—out in the wide open spaces of God’s grace and glory, standing tall and shouting our praise.

There’s more to come:

We continue to shout our praise even when we’re hemmed in with troubles, because we know how troubles can develop passionate patience in us, and how that patience in turn forges the tempered steel of virtue, keeping us alert for whatever God will do next. In alert expectancy such as this, we’re never left feeling shortchanged.

Quite the contrary—we can’t round up enough containers to hold everything God generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit!

Christ arrives right on time to make this happen. He didn’t, and doesn’t, wait for us to get ready. He presented himself for this sacrificial death when we were far too weak and rebellious to do anything to get ourselves ready. And even if we hadn’t been so weak, we wouldn’t have known what to do anyway. We can understand someone dying for a person worth dying for, and we can understand how someone good and noble could inspire us to selfless sacrifice.

But God put his love on the line for us by offering his Son in sacrificial death while we were of no use whatever to him.

Now that we are set right with God by means of this sacrificial death, the consummate blood sacrifice, there is no longer a question of being at odds with God in any way. If, when we were at our worst, we were put on friendly terms with God by the sacrificial death of his Son, now that we’re at our best, just think of how our lives will expand and deepen by means of his resurrection life! Now that we have actually received this amazing friendship with God, we are no longer content to simply say it in plodding prose. We sing and shout our praises to God through Jesus, the Messiah!

You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we’re in—first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death. That sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God.

But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin. If one man’s sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God’s gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do! There’s no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift. The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence.

If death got the upper hand through one man’s wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end." -The Message-

1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 Eugene H. Peterson by NavPress Publishing
 
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A holocaust survivor embraces the Nazi who 70 years ago conducted cruel and demented experiments on her as a child. 1

The wife of a missionary returns to share the gospel with the primitive jungle tribe that brutally murdered her husband who once shared Christ with them. 2

A pastor whose wife and infant daughter were killed by a drunk driver asks for a diminished sentence for the offender and has built a life long friendship with him. 3

A Rwandan woman’s entire family was wiped out during one of the worst genocides in history. She forgave the men who committed the atrocity and wrote a book that has spurred national healing and reconciliation in the aftermath. 3

What do all these scenarios have in common? They are some shining examples of radical forgiveness under circumstances very few of us could manage to bear gracefully let alone survive with our faith intact.

Nazis, warlords, drunk drivers and the like are the poster children of why justice is required of sinners. Their deeds are such that for such things to go unpunished would seem an offense against the very notion of justice itself.

Yet where did these heroic people get the the inner power to extend such radical forgiveness? Who else but God could provide such grace? To befriend the man whose irresponsible drunkenness cost the lives of the two most precious people in your life is almost unthinkable. Yet we who are informed in the heart and mission of the Messiah cannot help but admire it. We know intrinsically this must be the power of Gods love at work in a persons heart.

However have we stopped to consider that this woman who was killed had a mother and father. How do they feel about this forgiveness? Does it represent an affront to their sense of justice for their daughter? Is the daughters life dishonored by her husbands forgiveness of this man?

What about Elizabeth Elliott (in case you had not figured it out) who went back to share Christ with the very tribes that murdered her husband. Where is the justice for that mans mother and father? It’s one thing for Mrs. Elliott to forgive them but what does that say about the damage done to them having lost their son? One could argue that this radical forgiveness dishonored their deserved justice.

And yet still there is the Rwandan genocide. So many countless people died and yet the nation is beginning to heal due to the work of a woman who forgave the men that slaughtered her family.

It is in these astonishing and transformative accounts we begin to see the unfolding of a great human mystery being unlocked by a divine hand. Perhaps the grand secret to saving humanity from its own depravity is not the destruction of evil doers, but the destruction of the the evil that is within in them through love.

As it is written, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

Yet the most ardent disciples of Christianity who would celebrate these accounts themselves demand that harsh and interminable justice be done in the afterlife. Sinners must burn in hell forever because anything less is an affront to justice and the ones who suffered because of their depravity. This is a primary argument for why endless punishment is the only possibility for sinners. Yet when we read those stories we applaud these heroes of grace and we pray that somehow our own hearts could become half as strong in grace as theirs: the very ones who set aside justice to forgive the unforgivable, the very ones the entire world would have understood and appreciated if they had asked for death to the offenders. How can we want to be like them and yet want sinners to burn forever? How can we say we don’t want sinners to burn forever and yet insist God does?

Could it be that God was accomplishing something truly rare and precious in their hearts. His will was being done on earth as it is in heaven. Nowhere had his kingdom come more powerfully and present than in the hearts of these who laid down all rights to justice and chose to say “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

So now we must turn the tables on the demand for eternal punishment for sinners. Do we think that God would so dishonor those whose lives had so shined with the grace of Christ in radical forgiveness by sending their offenders to hell forever anyway? How could those forgiven on earth not be forgiven in heaven without dishonoring the love of those on earth who sacrificed so much to forgive them?

Furthermore, how can God not forgive those who were forgiven on earth when it was His own grace and spirit inspiring the forgiveness? Was it not Christ in them performing this forgiveness? Why then would Christ express forgiveness through our hearts on earth only to hold unforgiveness towards the same people in the afterlife?

It is at that point the familiar argument arises, God must judge people forever or else it would be an affront to justice. Well it would seem God has been affronting justice a lot through history by allowing sinners to be transformed by forgiveness.

Forgiveness destroys hate and evil. Was it not Jesus who said that the one who is forgiven much loves much?

So what is Gods goal? Is it to judge the sin and destroy the sinner, or to forgive the sin and change the sinner?

It is difficult to look at the stories of radical forgiveness and conclude these are the working of a God who will send sinners to hell forever. Love does not require justice like we do.

God has every reason to be more hurt and offended than we are yet He moves on hearts to radically forgive. In this life or the next life there is no reason why God would not continue to forgive sinners and liberate them from the evil within them.

Man made artificial deadlines on grace only serve to prop up human ideas and set themselves against the beautiful history of radical forgiveness to likes of Saul of Tarsus, John Newton, Nikki Cruz, and others.

These questions defy the simplistic and defiant assertions that Gods love could be so arbitrary and contradictory to mysteriously close off the sinner when brain waves and heart beats cease.

This leaves us with one great question. Where does Gods love for the sinner go when they die? Traditional Western theology teaches us it was once there but upon death it somehow evaporates.

But the testimonies of such radical, sacrificial, Christlike, cross bearing forgiveness seem to gently insist something else is true besides the contradiction we have held to.

The sinner may die, but mercy will not. For mercy already died for the sinner and mercy will never die again.

As it is written, “Give thanks to the Lord for He is good, His mercies endureth forever.”

footnotes:

  1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...i-guard/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f00b821bcd4f

  2. The Life & Legacy of Elisabeth Elliot | Haven Today

  3. 5 Inspirational Stories of Forgiveness You Won't Forget
 
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Saint Steven

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And it is the part that I bolded above which reveals the heart I know you have, which is in agreement with God's heart for his creation...IMO. :oldthumbsup:
Thanks for the post. That was very helpful. The light is starting to come on. But I have a ways to go. (don't we all?)

So... what do you make of the judgment?
As I understand it, the lost will be judged even though they were already condemned as the default position of fallen humanity. The saved will not be judged in the same way but rewarded for deeds that may be noteworthy. However, I wonder about this scripture and the relationship some may have with God despite their religious affiliation.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
 
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Hillsage

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Thanks for the post. That was very helpful. The light is starting to come on. But I have a ways to go. (don't we all?)
Anyone who thinks they have 'arrived' is probably thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. :sigh: I certainly don't claim to have arrived, but I certainly claim to have left....'the traditions and commandments of men' in religious positions of acceptance by 'the church'.

So... what do you make of the judgment?
As I understand it, the lost will be judged even though they were already condemned as the default position of fallen humanity. The saved will not be judged in the same way but rewarded for deeds that may be noteworthy. However, I wonder about this scripture and the relationship some may have with God despite their religious affiliation.
As I've shared before and so has FL; there are multiple words in the Hebrew and the Greek that ALL get translated as one word in the English, JUDGMENT. And if you don't know the difference between those definitions, your theology will end up messier than a soup sandwich.
Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Do me a big favor Steve, and read one chapter in this URL below on 'The Judgment'. Seriously pray before you do, and ask the Spirit of truth to break through any lies you may fully believe and lead you into any truth He would have you to know. I have 'literally' read thousands of pages from this man. I have considered him to be an 'anointed pen' in my life since the early 80's. This 15 part series was in a booklet form back then (pre computer days) and now each is a chapter. Each one dealing in depth with questions we've all asked. I scribbled and highlighted all 15 of them as I sought to find the truth or error of this many faceted doctrine which I too could only hope would be true. Chapter one is most important too. ETERNITY. You might just feel led to read that chapter instead. Then we can discuss it.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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FineLinen

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Anyone who thinks they have 'arrived' is probably thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. :sigh: I certainly don't claim to have arrived, but I certainly claim to have left....'the traditions and commandments of men' in religious positions of acceptance by 'the church'.

“People who’ve had any genuine spiritual experience always know that they don’t know. They are utterly humbled before mystery. They are in awe before the abyss of it all, in wonder at eternity and depth, and a Love, which is incomprehensible to the mind.” - Richard Rohr-
 
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Do me a big favor Steve, and read one chapter in this URL below on 'The Judgment'. Seriously pray before you do, and ask the Spirit of truth to break through any lies you may fully believe and lead you into any truth He would have you to know. I have 'literally' read thousands of pages from this man. I have considered him to be an 'anointed pen' in my life since the early 80's. This 15 part series was in a booklet form back then (pre computer days) and now each is a chapter. Each one dealing in depth with questions we've all asked. I scribbled and highlighted all 15 of them as I sought to find the truth or error of this many faceted doctrine which I too could only hope would be true. Chapter one is most important too. ETERNITY. You might just feel led to read that chapter instead. Then we can discuss it.
Thanks. I'll spend some time with that and get back to you.
However, I have a cautionary statement about what you requested prior to reading. Most cults that I have encountered say that exact thing. However, I know you and understand what you mean by it. But those who seek to brainwash me with their falsehood say the same thing. Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of that, but flags go up for me when I read that. I've encountered it before with the cults. Enough said.

Furthermore, I reserve the right to critically examine anything I read. The Holy Spirit is my reading companion. He will help me to weigh what I am reading against what I know of the truth as implanted through the Word.

To be clear, I have never attended any church (since adulthood) where I believe everything that is taught. It is normal for me to have disagreements with my pastor. When appropriate, I will share those with him, or her. But never with a contentious spirit. Just an FYI, here's where I am at with that. They typically thank me for the way I handled it.
 
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The Golden Chain

Links In A Golden Chain: C. S. Lewis, George MacDonald and Sadhu Sundar Singh

Sundar Singh eagerly studied holy books, meditated, practiced Yoga, and did good works. When he was fourteen years old, in 1902, his mother and older brother died. (In 1908, C. S. Lewis's mother, uncle, and grandfather died.) Unlike his mother, Sundar Singh's father thought he was overly religious for his age. Once, the boy's Guru said to his father, "Your son will become either a fool or a great man. "4

Sundar Singh sought God in Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. He was exposed to Christianity for a year in a local school provided by American Presbyterian missionaries, but the more he heard of the New Testament, the more he resented it. He quit the school. When he saw missionaries in public he abused them and ordered his father's servants to do the same. He finally burned a New Testament in public to express his outrage.

Later, Sundar Singh saw that his fanatical opposition to Christianity had disguised a secret attraction to it. His father disapproved of his Bible burning as much as his obsession with proper Indian religions and wondered if his son was losing his sanity. Indeed, on December 17, 1904, fifteen-year-old Sundar Singh told his father goodbye and announced that he would commit suicide before breakfast. He fully planned to lie down on the railroad tracks near his house and be run over by the 5 a.m. express train in order to find God on the other side of death.

At 3 a.m. on December 18, Sundar Singh arose and took a cold bath according to Hindu custom. He begged and begged God to reveal Himself before the train came. Suddenly such a great light appeared in his small room that he looked to make sure the house was not on fire. Then a luminous cloud appeared, and he saw a Man's face in it - radiant with love. The Man spoke in perfect Hindustani, Sundar Singh's mother tongue: "Why do you persecute me? Remember that I gave My life for you upon the Cross." 5

Sundar Singh wrote later, "What I saw was no imagination of my own. Up to that moment I hated Jesus Christ and did not worship Him. If I were talking of Buddha I might have imagined it, for I was in the habit of worshipping him. It was no dream. When you have just had a cold bath you don't dream! It was reality, the Living Christ!" 6

Sundar Singh fell down before Jesus and worshipped him. Peace and joy finally flooded his soul. At breakfast he told his bewildered father, "The old Sundar Singh is dead; I am a new being." 7 His conversion was obviously much like that of the apostle Paul, and he told everyone who would listen.

**********

“Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.” - Richard Rohr-
 
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