Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

nolidad · Jun 24, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
Also, I am assuming you think baptism is just you saying by mouth "I believe in Christ" and then the spirit enters you and your saved, right?

And your assumption is very very wrong! But one is baptized in the spirit the moment they are regenerated. One does not have to have water baptism to have spirit baptism.

Acts2:38 said:
Your either a saved person (saint) or you are not (lost worldly person aka not a saint).

For teh definition of sainthood- yes that is quite true. But the bible says the ot saints are of a different class of sainthood and this just refers to life in the millennial kingdom!

keras · Jun 24, 2019

nolidad said:
As for the Matthew quote- if that were the only passage I would agree with you! But it is not, revelation shows the church in heaven and multitudes of people shouting Alleluias!

Revelation 7 never says that anybody is in heaven. That chapter sets an earthly scene in verses 1-3 and never changes location. The vast multitude that John sees, are in Jerusalem, they are every faithful Christian person, gathered there as many prophesies tell us. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26....in the very place... Jesus is revealed to them. 2 Thess 1:10

Copperhead · Jun 24, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
and for people in the Old testament, Christs blood "flows both ways". Those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved (ie Moses, Joshua, etc), they too are saints. Anyone who is in a saved state or has died in a saved state, are indeed saints.

I am not sure one can legitimately state those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved. David pretty well stepped all over himself in regards to the Law, but I am pretty sure he made the cut. Even Moses pretty much messed up enough so that he was not allowed to enter the promised land. But he stood with Elijah and Yeshua in the NT.

I would contend that those who seriously looked at the Torah (the 5 books of Moses) saw the coming Messiah in them. Torah means teaching or instruction. Yeshua is on every page of the Torah. Just the names from Adam to Noah lay out the entire Gospel message as well as anything in the NT. It was that looking forward to the coming Messiah and trusting Yahweh that they were counted as among the righteous.

Copperhead · Jun 24, 2019

keras said:
Revelation 7 never says that anybody is in heaven. That chapter sets an earthly scene in verses 1-3 and never changes location. The vast multitude that John sees, are in Jerusalem, they are every faithful Christian person, gathered there as many prophesies tell us. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26....in the very place... Jesus is revealed to them. 2 Thess 1:10

You do have a vivid imagination. I don't see any association of Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Revelation 7. Same for Isaiah 35:10. They just don't fit. There is nothing to link that what John saw was what these verses talk about. And I know what you are trying to do with Romans 9, but I don't buy into the Two House / Ephraimte Theory.

I really pause at writing this, but what you are doing borders on stuff like taking a passage that says "Judas hanged himself" and associating it with a passage that says "go thou and do likewise". You are allegorizing to an extreme.

iamlamad · Jun 24, 2019

nolidad said:
And your assumption is very very wrong! But one is baptized in the spirit the moment they are regenerated. One does not have to have water baptism to have spirit baptism.

For teh definition of sainthood- yes that is quite true. But the bible says the ot saints are of a different class of sainthood and this just refers to life in the millennial kingdom!

You are mixing up the Holy Spirit within (the born again experience) with the Holy Spirit UPON as in the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit - which is the anointing.

iamlamad · Jun 24, 2019

nolidad said:
Do I need to list the verses that says only those Baptized in the Spirit are the bride of Christ?

You should use the term "born again." those born again (In Christ) are a part of the bride. But SO MANY have not received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit (the anointing - the Holy Spirit upon - because their church does not teach it.)

iamlamad · Jun 24, 2019

*Light* said:
This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!

There ARE some classic pretrib errors.
1. That the rapture is found in Rev. 4:1
ANY good bible student know that is JOHN caught up to heaven, around 95 AD.

2. That the 70th week begins with the first seal.
The truth is, the 70th week begins with the 7th seal.

3. Related to #1. That when John wrote "after these things; the meaning is, "after the church age."
This is another example of poor exegesis: John used a similar phrase 5 more times in Revelation. These are only transitional phrases John used when God changed the subject.

4. Also related to #1: that the church has been in the messages to the churches, chapters 2 & 3 for 2000 years.
The truth is, the church has been at the 5th seal for 2000 years: they are the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for judgment to start until the LAST church age martyr. The pretrib rapture will end the church age and cause the final church age martyr, and then judgment will begin with the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. the 70th week will then begin with the 7th seal.

OF COURSE the remnant of the church, those left behind at the rapture and new believers will make it to the marriage and supper because their will be another resurrection for the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial and ends the week. the marriage and supper must wait for the Old Testament saints and the martyrs (beheaded) of the 70th week. So OF COURSE they will make it to the wedding.

Those gathered after the tribulation of those days will be God gathering all the descendants of Jacob back to Israel as He has promised.

keras · Jun 24, 2019

Copperhead said:
You do have a vivid imagination. I don't see any association of Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Revelation 7.

It is you and all those who have the fanciful notion of going to live in heaven, who make out that Rev 7:9-14 is in heaven. The text simply does not say that.
God's Throne can be seen from anywhere He chooses; Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen saw it while they were on earth and waving palm branches is a final fulfilment of John 12:13

The Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the holy Land with joy and thanksgiving:

Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph…
Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!

Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.

Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land.

Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.

Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.

Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.

Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.

Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.

Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.

John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God…

Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.

Psalm 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.

Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land.

Praise the Lord! He will fulfil His Promises.

Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

Acts2:38 · Jun 25, 2019

Copperhead said:
I am not sure one can legitimately state those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved. David pretty well stepped all over himself in regards to the Law, but I am pretty sure he made the cut. Even Moses pretty much messed up enough so that he was not allowed to enter the promised land. But he stood with Elijah and Yeshua in the NT.

I would contend that those who seriously looked at the Torah (the 5 books of Moses) saw the coming Messiah in them. Torah means teaching or instruction. Yeshua is on every page of the Torah. Just the names from Adam to Noah lay out the entire Gospel message as well as anything in the NT. It was that looking forward to the coming Messiah and trusting Yahweh that they were counted as among the righteous.

Hello Copperhead

I really just want to point out something with your last post in regards to replying to me.

If you just read your post carefully, I would like to point out that you contradicted yourself.

You stated that "david and moses messed up" which is true yes, but said that
"I am not sure one can legitimately state those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved."

Yet not long after that, you stated
"But he stood with Elijah and Yeshua in the NT." and later
"It was that looking forward to the coming Messiah and trusting Yahweh that they were counted as among the righteous."

So basically, in one swoop, you said that not following the law will still grant you salvation (as far as OT people go). You implicate that so long as they knew Christ was coming, they dont really have to obey the OT laws and can still be in a saved state.

That is the same claim OSAS/faith only people believe. Which is false.

If I could just kindly point you to the book of Hebrews, and the large swath of OT books (namely Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers) you will see that the OT people needed to obey those laws to be in a saved state. Yet, we do know in scripture that Christs blood flows both ways, if you carefully look at scripture, the OT people have been in more of a "holding place" (this topic could be discussed in a different thread).

Hebrews tell us that the law was a shadow of what was to come. Like you said also, a tutor. Leading to this point we are at now. However, if one did not obey the "tutor" laws, they are not saved. If they did, they are saved. Same thing now days. You obey the gospel, you are saved. If you dont, you are not saved.

Now to include this point, which I assume you overlooked, when it came to david and moses and others.

One simple verse, Romans 3:23.

An NT example of someone messing up is Peter. Paul scolded Peter remember? What was Peter doing?

Also look at the Galatian epistle or even the Corinthian letters. They each were doing things that went against what was taught, aka sinning. With a Godly sorrow, earnest repentance and prayer, we can have forgiveness.

David messed up big time, but he also sought out forgiveness if you recall. Thereby granting him the salvation we saw that he had.

So, in conclusion, this is why I see your post as contradictive unto itself and what scripture shows us in all.

Acts2:38 · Jun 25, 2019

nolidad said:
For teh definition of sainthood- yes that is quite true. But the bible says the ot saints are of a different class of sainthood and this just refers to life in the millennial kingdom!

nolidad said:
One does not have to have water baptism to have spirit baptism.

Please quote scripture for both these statements please.

Acts2:38 · Jun 25, 2019

nolidad said:
Well you are confusing the word "saint" with the saints that are members of the Body of Christ!

I will give you the one verse that should end your misunderstanding!

Matthew 16 does not support what you imply. Matthew 16 is only telling Peter that Peter is the guy who, with Peter's confession, will bring about the kingdom spoken of by the book of Daniel (and other books). Remember when Christ said to Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world"? Well Peter began that kingdom in Acts 2 "first to the Jews" and in Acts 10 "then to the Gentiles" (see Acts 11).

It states nothing in evidence to your whole "3 types of saints" theory.

So I ask you again ever so kindly, present evidence via scripture to support your "different saints" theory.

nolidad said:
DEo I need to list the verses that says only those Baptized in the Spirit are the bride of Christ?

Yes, you do. Because somewhere you are twisting something, but I wont know how until you point out the scripture you THINK states what you are touting.

Nowhere in the NT is ANYONE saved by just having the Spirit come down on them without the person needing baptism into water.

Disclaimer note:
I am not saying it is the water that saves you. I am saying that because of what scripture says, water is required for salvation, obedience to what the gospel states for our salvation.

1 Peter 3:20-21 should have made that abundantly clear.

nolidad · Jun 25, 2019

keras said:
Revelation 7 never says that anybody is in heaven. That chapter sets an earthly scene in verses 1-3 and never changes location. The vast multitude that John sees, are in Jerusalem, they are every faithful Christian person, gathered there as many prophesies tell us. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26....in the very place... Jesus is revealed to them. 2 Thess 1:10

Well I did not mention REv. 7 but now that you brought it in:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

So unless you are saying that here the angels are on earth worshipping Jesus on His throne- Houston we have a problem!

But I did mention:

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

there is a multitude in heaven and this is before Jesus returns to earth!

Also to show that for the millenial there is a difference in the saints:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

There is a group of people that are not the wife of the Lamb and are invited toi the supper!

John the Baptist recognized this and Jesus in parable told this.

Matthew 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

See in teh 1,000 year reign of Jesus there are different places for OT saints, the church and trib saints. All are equally saved, but all are not the same class of "saint" only the church is the bride of the lamb.

In eternity- no one knows what God has in store for us!

Copperhead · Jun 25, 2019

This is the problem... when one ventures into allegorical interpretation, then anything can be made to look like proper interpretation. It is Orwellian. Up is down. Left is right. 2+2=5. Whatever.

This is why there are certain principles of hermeneutics that need to be adhered to. An objective standard to keep things centered. Many of these principles are similar to standards in grammar and literary structure.

And what we are seeing here in this thread of late is allegorical methodology vs principled hermeneutics. The parties involved and which methodology is being used know who you are, so I have no need to call anyone out on it by name.

But there will be no consensus on these issues when parties are using diametrically opposed exegetical methodologies. Frankly, the allegorical method looks strikingly similar to Communist propaganda methodology used during the Cold War and has carried over to modern day politics. Maybe Orwellian was not the proper term for it. Machiavellian probably applies more.

nolidad · Jun 25, 2019

iamlamad said:
You are mixing up the Holy Spirit within (the born again experience) with the Holy Spirit UPON as in the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit - which is the anointing.

No it is you equating an anointing of the Spirit with the Baptism of the Spirit. Paul clearly said that one cannot be a member of the Body of Christ (saved) without the regeneration or baptism in the Holy Spirit!

iamlamad said:
You should use the term "born again." those born again (In Christ) are a part of the bride. But SO MANY have not received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit (the anointing - the Holy Spirit upon - because their church does not teach it.

You sound like you come from a Charismatic style church. You are confusing an anointing with the act of regeneration (baptism in the spirit) If one is not baptized by the spirit they are not saved!
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If you are not baptized by the spirit you are not saved!

Copperhead · Jun 25, 2019

Yeah, folks just fling terminology around and it hazes over the true meanings. Various groups have contributed to the confusion and the Charismatic wing has done it with Holy Spirit. Good hearts but a wee bit overzealous when it comes to HS word usage.

iamlamad · Jun 25, 2019

nolidad said:
No it is you equating an anointing of the Spirit with the Baptism of the Spirit. Paul clearly said that one cannot be a member of the Body of Christ (saved) without the regeneration or baptism in the Holy Spirit!

You sound like you come from a Charismatic style church. You are confusing an anointing with the act of regeneration (baptism in the spirit) If one is not baptized by the spirit they are not saved!
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If you are not baptized by the spirit you are not saved!

without the regeneration or baptism in the Holy Spirit! Can you find just one scripture that shows us the baptism in the Holy Spirit is "regeneration?" I doubt you can. Why? It is MYTH!

I can show you scripture after scripture that shows us the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit UPON on ON, NOT the Holy Spirit within. Regeneration is the Holy Spirit within.

Did you not notice that all those in the upper room were born again when Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit." We can certainly believe they received right then. The baptism of the spirit was a SECOND work of Grace (John Wesley term) that came LATER. And it was the Holy Spirit UPON.

A famous Baptist preachers seen weekly on TV discovered that the Holy Spirit baptism in Acts was the Holy Spirit "upon" so was forced to say, "You can't use the book of Acts for Doctrine!"

Let's just stick CLOSE to the scripture: those in the upper room were born again here:

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

You are confusing an anointing with the act of regeneration (baptism in the spirit) No, that would be you confusing the born again experience (regeneration) with the anointing that comes with the Holy Spirit UPON. Luke called it the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He also called it being "filled" with the Spirit.

The bible is very clear on this issue: there is regeneration when someone believes in Jesus and asks for salvation...we could say they follow the Roman's road to salvation. They receive the Holy Spirit WITHIN and their spirit man is regenerated.

But there is a SECOND experience that usually comes with the laying on of hands, but not always that way. It is the anointing, or it is being "filled with the Holy Spirit" or it is receiving the baptism of or in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Notice what THE WORD says: "you shall received power" not regeneration. Notice this is the Holy Spirit UPON - not the Holy Spirit within.

Notice how John put it:
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice how Paul put it:
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

This is the Holy Spirit WITHIN.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body
This is baptism into the body of Christ! It is not the baptism in the Holy Spirit! Some say this is water baptism. Don't believe it!

For SURE it is the Holy Spirit that performs regeneration. No doubt there. But He also is ready to come UPON a believer as the anointing - if they can only believe.

born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water means physical birth, born of the Spirit means the Holy Spirit WITHIN - as Jesus said, "receive the Holy Spirit..." and as Paul said, we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit in our heart.

My friend, you are mixing up scriptures, trying to force two separate acts of the holy Spirit into one.

iamlamad · Jun 25, 2019

Copperhead said:
Yeah, folks just fling terminology around and it hazes over the true meanings. Various groups have contributed to the confusion and the Charismatic wing has done it with Holy Spirit. Good hearts but a wee bit overzealous when it comes to HS word usage.

If we stick CLOSE to what the word really says...but people don't: that is why we have so many denominations!

nolidad · Jun 25, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
Please quote scripture for both these statements please.

So you believe water baptism is essential to be saved? I just wish to make sure.

1 Cor. 1:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If water baptism is essential for salvation (being baptized by the Spirit) then Paul failed in his ministryh- fo rhe said He didn't go about baptizing!

nolidad · Jun 25, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
Matthew 16 does not support what you imply. Matthew 16 is only telling Peter that Peter is the guy who, with Peter's confession, will bring about the kingdom spoken of by the book of Daniel (and other books). Remember when Christ said to Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world"? Well Peter began that kingdom in Acts 2 "first to the Jews" and in Acts 10 "then to the Gentiles" (see Acts 11).

Well as I did not quote Matt. 16 it is irrelevant.

Peter did open the way for different peoples or ethnos to receive Christ. And enter into teh mystery form of the kingdom which Paul declared openly!

keras · Jun 25, 2019

nolidad said:
So unless you are saying that here the angels are on earth worshipping Jesus on His throne- Houston we have a problem!

God, angels and heaven, are all spiritual concepts. They are all outside of our dimension.
If God wills it, they can be seen by people on earth. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
There is no scripture that says people will live in heaven, therefore the vast multitude seen by John in Rev 7:9, is in Jerusalem, on earth.
Proved by the many prophesies telling how the Lord's faithful Christian people will gather and live in all of the holy Land. They are there before the Return of Jesus. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7.

Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

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