An Alternative Explanation for Seals 3 and 4 from Revelation

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Thus Gog would be brought against Israel, after the Babylonian exile, in the latter days (1st century according to the apostles) so that the nations would know God.
What? The return from the Babylonian captivity took place 500 years before the apostle's time. Not only that, but in Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Ezekiel 39 is talking about bringing the house of Israel back from a second captivity. The first is when they went into the Assyrian and Babylonians captivity. The second is when they went into captivity in the nations for rejecting Jesus.

______________________________________________________

None of the text you are quoting, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 1:12, Act s2:16-17, 1Corinthians10:11, 1Peter4:7, 1John2:18, James 5:8-9 mentions Gog/Magog.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What? The return from the Babylonian captivity took place 500 years before the apostle's time.

Correct. Again, Gog would come against Israel in the latter times in order that the nations would know God. According to the apostles, the latter times occurred 500 years after the return from Babylonian exile in the 1st century.

Did the nations/gentiles learn who God was in the 1st century?


Ezekiel 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

Not only that, but in Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Ezekiel 39 is talking about bringing the house of Israel back from a second captivity. The first is when they went into the Assyrian and Babylonians captivity. The second is when they went into captivity in the nations for rejecting Jesus.

I would double check Hebrew "again" if I were you.

denoting repetition, etc. (Ges§ 120 d g): + verb, return (and) do = do again,

Ezekiel 39:25 is not listed under the repetitive action.


None of the text you are quoting, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 1:12, Act s2:16-17, 1Corinthians10:11, 1Peter4:7, 1John2:18, James 5:8-9 mentions Gog/Magog.

That was not the intention. The intention was to show that the disciples believe they were living in the latter days. When would Gog come against Israel?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That was not the intention. The intention was to show that the disciples believe they were living in the latter days. When would Gog come against Israel?
It wasn't their intention, because "in the latter years" of the Gog/Magog event was not in their day.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Did the nations/gentiles learn who God was in the 1st century?

Ezekiel 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
No, not all of them. The gospel was being spread.

Currently a fourth of the world believes Allah is God.
 
Upvote 0

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The first seal does not mention a "conquering King." We ALL will get crowns. Remember, this is a very symbolic book. We must account that many things will not be presented literally. They will be presented symbolically. Did God ever call the INFANT church a bride? I think not. Anyway, HERE the church is represented as a conquering power that will be victorious.

John's visions don't necessarily ALL have to be "things to come." That theory is myth. God CERTAINLY showed John "things to come" so satisfied that verse.

"the only context in which the seals can be placed is within a time that is yet to come." This is myth because your first statement was myth. God most certainly allowed Himself freedom to include some history with his foretelling. Yours is a theory; it just can't be backed up by scripture correctly understood.

The church was already presently established and at work spreading the Gospel when John wrote the book of Revelation and therefore cannot be represented by the first seal.a
Then you TOTALLY MISSED the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5 that set the timing of the first seal as the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I did not write chapter 5, JOHN wrote it by the Holy Spirit.

Question: WHEN did Jesus send down the Holy Spirit?

John saw a figure who may have appeared righteous but was in fact a counterfeit to Christ. Whoa BACK! GOD is showing John this vision and it is going to be EXACTLY what God wanted John to see! What you are saying is, GOD chose to use white 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. NEVER NEVER NEVER happen! God chose the color of evil and it was fiery red!

You cannot escape the CONTEXT: Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room (where He had been absent) and then sent the Holy Spirit down. My friend, this NAILS the time down to 32 AD. Jesus went immediately to get the book and then started opening the seals. the ONLY way we can tell when He stopped opening is by the context of the seals themselves. The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age, and people are still be added, so that is where we are today.

The seals are ONLY connected because they are sealing a book. Jesus is who is opening the seals, one by one. It seems He opened seals 1 through 5 right then.

If you wish to know, the church is waiting at the 5th seal church martyrs: when the last martyr is killed, the rapture will take place, ending the church age, and starting the Day of the Lord and God's wrath upon the earth. Then (probably 10 days later) the 7th seal will begin the 70th week.

Notice that God's "goal" is to get the book opened. It contains the trumpet judgments and at the 7th trumpet, Satan is FINALLY kicked off his usurped throne as god of this world. Finally God gets His planet back!

Synopsis: God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book, but He wanted to start the story while the book was still in the right hand of the Father. That would mean He would have to start the story in John's HISTORY. Without a doubt the book was in the hand of the Father before Jesus rose from the dead; perhaps before He left heaven to be born from a Virgin. It was 95 AD: God had to show "somehow" that it was history John was seeing. I don't know why God chose to use symbols. But that is what we have to work with. So He showed this:
  • A throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father.
  • The Holy Spirit IN the throne room - when Jesus had said that He would send Him down.
  • A search for one worthy to open the book - that ended in failure.
  • TIME passing
  • A search that found JESUS worthy
  • Jesus suddenly appearing back in the throne room He had left 32 years before.
How would YOU have written it?






“The first seal does not mention a "conquering King." We ALL will get crowns. Remember, this is a very symbolic book. We must account that many things will not be presented literally. They will be presented symbolically. Did God ever call the INFANT church a bride?"






Then why is the rider wearing a crown? That is a symbol of authority; of kingship. Yes we will all get crowns someday, but that is not what the first seal is all about. Revelation does contain symbolism but the symbolism is generally explained. But that which is not depicted as symbolic is presented in a literal context. There is a great deal of symbolism in the book of Revelation, but also just as much content, if not more, that was meant to be taken in a literal context.


In the case of the seals, they are symbolic, but their meaning is explained. When did God ever refer to His Church as an infant? A bride, and nothing more than a bride, has always used as a figurative representation of the church; not a ruler nor an infant.


But if the first seal is supposed to represent a victorious church, why then does war, famine, death, martyrdom, and divine judgment follow after it? And who or what is supposed to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other? And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine and economic collapse that the third seal represents? The fourth seal is destined to kill off a fourth of mankind and all those who die by the fourth seal are all lost souls. These cataclysms do not seem to represent what is supposed to take place in the church age, at least not to the degree and manner that they are expected to happen. The seals are worldwide cataclysms that claim a number of lives of the likes we have not seen.


Anyone claiming that the first seal is the church is going to have a very difficult time explaining the rest of the seals as far as their placement in the time line goes.




“John's visions don't necessarily ALL have to be "things to come." That theory is myth. God CERTAINLY showed John "things to come" so satisfied that verse…Yours is a theory; it just can't be backed up by scripture correctly understood.






But John’s visions ARE of all things to come. The only time that John was ever given a glimpse into the past was so that he could understand what is to come. The best example of this is Revelation chapter 12 where a woman is depicted giving birth to a male child whom Satan attempts to eat the moment that it is born. This baby is destined to become a man who will rule over all nations with a rod of iron who is taken up to heaven before Satan can devour him.


We know from history that these events represent the birth of Christ whom Herod the Great attempted to kill. Christ was taken alive into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father. The rest that befalls the woman who gave birth to him is yet to come.


Other than what we read in Revelation chapter 12 concerning the woman, the dragon, and the baby she gives birth to, there is no scriptural example of John ever being given visions of the past. It is all about things that have not yet come to pass.






“…you TOTALLY MISSED the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5 that set the timing of the first seal as the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I did not write chapter 5, JOHN wrote it by the Holy Spirit.






I am afraid there are contextual details you have overlooked. The Lamb that was slain appears from the throne (Rev. 5:6) suggesting He had been there all along. Nobody in John’s vision saw Him ascend from the earth. They did not watch Him take His place on the throne. He came from the throne which can only mean one thing: None of the seals have anything to do with the church age. They are symbolic of events to come.


And there was never a time in which the Holy Spirit was ever confined to the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been at work in the earth since the beginning of time which Revelation 5:6 makes clear. But it wasn’t until after Christ died for our sins and rose again that He came to live within us.






“GOD is showing John this vision and it is going to be EXACTLY what God wanted John to see! What you are saying is, GOD chose to use white 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. NEVER NEVER NEVER happen! God chose the color of evil and it was fiery red!”








God uses whatever imagery He sees fit to convey whatever message. The reason why He would depict an evil figure in white would be to communicate the fact that even evil can take on the appearance of that which is good which will clearly be the case with the Anti-Christ for a time until his true nature is made manifest. Remember that even Satan can come in the form of an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)


When evil is depicted in fiery red, it represents an overt and blatant form of wickedness. There is no subtlety about it.





 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
“The first seal does not mention a "conquering King." We ALL will get crowns. Remember, this is a very symbolic book. We must account that many things will not be presented literally. They will be presented symbolically. Did God ever call the INFANT church a bride?"

Then why is the rider wearing a crown? That is a symbol of authority; of kingship. Yes we will all get crowns someday, but that is not what the first seal is all about. Revelation does contain symbolism but the symbolism is generally explained. But that which is not depicted as symbolic is presented in a literal context. There is a great deal of symbolism in the book of Revelation, but also just as much content, if not more, that was meant to be taken in a literal context.

In the case of the seals, they are symbolic, but their meaning is explained. When did God ever refer to His Church as an infant? A bride, and nothing more than a bride, has always used as a figurative representation of the church; not a ruler nor an infant.

But if the first seal is supposed to represent a victorious church, why then does war, famine, death, martyrdom, and divine judgment follow after it? And who or what is supposed to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other? And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine and economic collapse that the third seal represents? The fourth seal is destined to kill off a fourth of mankind and all those who die by the fourth seal are all lost souls. These cataclysms do not seem to represent what is supposed to take place in the church age, at least not to the degree and manner that they are expected to happen. The seals are worldwide cataclysms that claim a number of lives of the likes we have not seen.

Anyone claiming that the first seal is the church is going to have a very difficult time explaining the rest of the seals as far as their placement in the time line goes.


“John's visions don't necessarily ALL have to be "things to come." That theory is myth. God CERTAINLY showed John "things to come" so satisfied that verse…Yours is a theory; it just can't be backed up by scripture correctly understood.



But John’s visions ARE of all things to come. The only time that John was ever given a glimpse into the past was so that he could understand what is to come. The best example of this is Revelation chapter 12 where a woman is depicted giving birth to a male child whom Satan attempts to eat the moment that it is born. This baby is destined to become a man who will rule over all nations with a rod of iron who is taken up to heaven before Satan can devour him.


We know from history that these events represent the birth of Christ whom Herod the Great attempted to kill. Christ was taken alive into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father. The rest that befalls the woman who gave birth to him is yet to come.

Other than what we read in Revelation chapter 12 concerning the woman, the dragon, and the baby she gives birth to, there is no scriptural example of John ever being given visions of the past. It is all about things that have not yet come to pass.


“…you TOTALLY MISSED the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5 that set the timing of the first seal as the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I did not write chapter 5, JOHN wrote it by the Holy Spirit.


I am afraid there are contextual details you have overlooked. The Lamb that was slain appears from the throne (Rev. 5:6) suggesting He had been there all along. Nobody in John’s vision saw Him ascend from the earth. They did not watch Him take His place on the throne. He came from the throne which can only mean one thing: None of the seals have anything to do with the church age. They are symbolic of events to come.


And there was never a time in which the Holy Spirit was ever confined to the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been at work in the earth since the beginning of time which Revelation 5:6 makes clear. But it wasn’t until after Christ died for our sins and rose again that He came to live within us.


“GOD is showing John this vision and it is going to be EXACTLY what God wanted John to see! What you are saying is, GOD chose to use white 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. NEVER NEVER NEVER happen! God chose the color of evil and it was fiery red!”


God uses whatever imagery He sees fit to convey whatever message. The reason why He would depict an evil figure in white would be to communicate the fact that even evil can take on the appearance of that which is good which will clearly be the case with the Anti-Christ for a time until his true nature is made manifest. Remember that even Satan can come in the form of an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)


When evil is depicted in fiery red, it represents an overt and blatant form of wickedness. There is no subtlety about it.

Then why is the rider wearing a crown? That is a symbol of authority; of kingship.
IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.

When did God ever refer to His Church as an infant? Christians ALL start out as infants in Christ and must mature. You are right, there is no "thus says the Lord calling the church an infant.

Paul wrote: "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly -- mere infants in Christ.
The Bride is most talked about in END TIME scriptures.
not a ruler I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.

if the first seal is supposed to represent a victorious church, why then does war, famine, death, martyrdom It's very simple: Satan is still the god of this world. He HATES the church, hates all Christians, and hates the gospel with a passion. But God sent the church out into the devil's world to conquer or overcome, and the church has accomplished it.

who or what is supposed to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other? God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.

And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.

The fourth seal is destined to kill off a fourth of mankind No no no! You don't read very well. God has LIMITED the war horse, the famine horse and death in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can BET that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started.
Did you just overlook that they were to kill:
with the sword = the Red Horse.
With hunger = the Black horse
With Death = the pale horse.

I hope you know that the black plague hit Europe twice, killing about 1/3 of the people each time. This was the pale horse at work.

Do you see that the white horse is not with these three doing Satan's bidding? He has been trying to stop the gospel from the beginning.

These cataclysms do not seem to represent what is supposed to take place in the church age
Wake up! Read your history: these DEFINE the church age.

The seals are worldwide cataclysms that claim a number of lives of the likes we have not seen. Human reasoning not backed up by scripture.

Anyone claiming that the first seal is the church is going to have a very difficult time explaining the rest of the seals as far as their placement in the time line goes. Of course NOT! John started with the church sent out (Go therefore) and continued right on through the church age. We are not at the 5th seal martyrs, as people are still being added and judgment (the 6th seal) is still future. John then walks is right through the 70th week marked by the 7th seal to the 7th vial.

But John’s visions ARE of all things to come. Certainly they are, but God chose to mix in some history when necessary. He wanted to introduce John to the book, but CHOSE to start when the book was still in the Father's hand. that was perhaps 60 years previous to 95 AD so God HAD to use some history. Don't LIMIT God: He is all powerful.

The only time that John was ever given a glimpse into the past was so that he could understand what is to come.
Case in point: the BOOK still in the hand of the Father: circa 32 AD. Congratulations on noticing that Rev. 12:1-5 is also a glimpse of John's past. Few understand that.

Other than what we read in Revelation chapter 12 concerning the woman, the dragon, and the baby she gives birth to, there is no scriptural example of John ever being given visions of the past. You MISSED chapters 4 & 5, not understanding the Author's intent there.

The Lamb that was slain appears from the throne (Rev. 5:6) suggesting He had been there all along. No, He just suddenly appeared in the throne room which John was seeing in this vision. God's point in Him NOT being seen at the right hand of the Father is that He was NOT THERE. God's point in "no man found" is that He was NOT THERE: still under the earth. His point in showing John the Holy Spirit STILL there was that He had not yet ascended. But in chapter 5 He suddenly appears, showing us He JUST ascended. This is proven by the fact that He then sent the Holy Spirit down.

Nobody in John’s vision saw Him ascend from the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room. God was giving him the TIMING of the first seal.

They did not watch Him take His place on the throne.
he went straight to take the book from the Father and start opening the seals: God showing John the TIMING of the first seal.

And there was never a time in which the Holy Spirit was ever confined to the Kingdom of Heaven. True, but this is a VISION and God wanted to make the point that Jesus had NOT ascended YET to send Him down. But that happened in chapter 5.

He came from the throne which can only mean one thing: None of the seals have anything to do with the church age. MYTH: human reasoning.

God uses whatever imagery He sees fit to convey whatever message.
Exactly: that is why He showed John a vision of the throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit there and not YET sent down, and a search for one worthy that ended in failure. These things were necessary because God chose to show John the book while it was still in the Father's hand. I am out of time
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It wasn't their intention, because "in the latter years" of the Gog/Magog event was not in their day.

I believe the apostles did intend to show that they were living in the latter years. As evidenced below:

Jesus appeared in the latter years

Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Peter believed it was the last days

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.


1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

Paul states the end of the ages had come upon them

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come

John stated it was the last hour

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour



James stated the coming of the Lord was at hand, and even stated the judge was standing (present tense) at the door.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

No, not all of them. The gospel was being spread.

Where does it say God will bring Gog against Israel so that "ALL" the nations way know Him?

Ezekiel 38:16 You will advance against My people Israel like a cloud covering the land. It will happen in the last days, O Gog, that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I show Myself holy in you before their eyes.

Paul states the nations were glorifying God in the 1st century. Thus I would argue the nations were knowing God as early as the 1st century.

Romans 15:8-9 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the nations might glorify God for his mercy.


Currently a fourth of the world believes Allah is God.

What does this have to do with the nations glorifying God through Jesus Christ, who came so that we would eat the flesh and drink the blood of the great sacrifice that God made for us?
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But none of those passages reference Gog/Magog.

They reference that they believe they were living in the latter times. If they knew Gog wasn't going to be brought against Israel during or near their lifetime, but some 2,000 years later, they wouldn't have believed they were living in the latter times.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
They reference that they believe they were living in the latter times. If they knew Gog wasn't going to be brought against Israel during or near their lifetime, but some 2,000 years later, they wouldn't have believed they were living in the latter times.
When did the latter times end? Has the world beat it's swords into pruning hooks?

Read Micah 4:4 and Ezekiel 39:26. It is obviously referring to when Jesus has returned.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

_______________________________________

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since the disciples needed their minds opened to understand the OT scriptures, I typically look for NT scripture that confirms and brings to light OT scripture meaning. If the OT scripture could be understood with a straightforward reading, the disciples would not have needed their minds opened.

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

When did the latter times end?

I believe the latter times are a reference to the latter times of the nation of Israel under the old covenant, which ended in 70ad.

Hebrews 8:13 speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour




So when we see that Micah prophesied of many nations/gentiles going to the mountain of the Lord, we should look to NT scripture to confirm the meaning of this.

Micah 4:1-2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it. And many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, so that we may walk in His paths.”

We should note that the author of Hebrews states "you have come" to Mount Zion. By the the time Hebrews was written, many from the nations/gentiles, had become believers.

Hebrews 12:22-24 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


There is no direct reference to this passage in the NT, so it's true intention is definitely debatable. I would argue the meaning of "beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks" has to do with going from war to peace. Believers are to love their enemies and do good to their enemies under the new covenant.

Romans 12:18-21 it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink.
For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:35-36 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful

Where as under the old covenant, they killed their enemies

Deuteronomy 20:17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction,a the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded

Esther 9:5 The Jews struck all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and did as they pleased to those who hated them


As believers under the new covenant, what do we have to fear?

Luke 12:4 I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more,

1 Peter 3:6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

1 Peter 3:14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
@claninja

What at the rest of the verse? About dwellt in safety in their land? And that they have borne their shame?

Douggg said:
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
There is no direct reference to this passage in the NT, so it's true intention is definitely debatable. I would argue the meaning of "beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks" has to do with going from war to peace. Believers are to love their enemies and do good to their enemies under the new covenant.
What about the parts fo the verse that says nation shall not lift of a sword aginast nation? And neither shall they learn war any more? Those are all prophecy referrring to the latter days.

I believe the latter times are a reference to the latter times of the nation of Israel under the old covenant, which ended in 70ad.
Well, it looks like that interpretation is wrong. Given that the prophecies in Michah 4 and Ezekiel 39 match each other, and refer to the condition of the world and to the house of Israel and to Jerusalem in the latter days.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@claninja


What at the rest of the verse? About dwellt in safety in their land? And that they have borne their shame?


What about the parts fo the verse that says nation shall not lift of a sword aginast nation? And neither shall they learn war any more? Those are all prophecy referrring to the latter days.


Well, it looks like that interpretation is wrong. Given that the prophecies in Michah 4 and Ezekiel 39 match each other, and refer to the condition of the world and to the house of Israel and to Jerusalem in the latter days.

None of this addresses what I posted.

Micah prophesies that in the "last days"
Micah 4:1-2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it. And many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, so that we may walk in His paths.”

The new testament confirms that Micah 4:1-2 was being fulfilled in the 1st century. The apostles believe that they were living in the "last days" and they state "you have come" to the mount zion.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

Hebrews 12:22-24 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

What about the parts fo the verse that says nation shall not lift of a sword aginast nation? And neither shall they learn war any more? Those are all prophecy referrring to the latter days.

Again, the NT doesn't quote this verse. So any interpretation is debatable. The disciples had to have their minds opened in order to understand OT scripture.However, Micah 4:1-2 is clearly shown to be fulfilled in the NT.


Well, it looks like that interpretation is wrong. Given that the prophecies in Michah 4 and Ezekiel 39 match each other, and refer to the condition of the world and to the house of Israel and to Jerusalem in the latter days.

The NT shows you to be wrong. You'll have to address why the apostles believed they were living in the last days and why the author of Hebrews states they have come to mount zion, if it in fact was not happening during their days, to support your opinion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,688
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Again, the NT doesn't quote this verse. So any interpretation is debatable. The disciples had to have their minds opened in order to understand OT scripture.However, Micah 4:1-2 is clearly shown to be fulfilled in the NT.
Micah 4:1-2 is not divorced from Micah 4:3-4.

The NT shows you to be wrong. You'll have to address why the apostles believed they were living in the last days and why the author of Hebrews states they have come to mount zion, if it in fact was not happening during their days, to support your opinion.
Micah 4:1-4 and Ezekiel 39:26 shows you to be wrong about the latter times ending in 70 AD.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

I agree

Micah 4:1-4 and Ezekiel 39:26 shows you to be wrong about the latter times ending in 70 AD.

The apostles show that your interpretation of the OT is incorrect.

Micah prophesies that in the "last days"
Micah 4:1-2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it. And many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, so that we may walk in His paths.”

The new testament confirms that Micah 4:1-2 was being fulfilled in the 1st century. This is confirmed by NT scripture, which you continue to ignore to make your position work. The apostles believed that they were living in the "last days" and they state "you have come" to the mount zion.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

Hebrews 12:22-24 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

You have not surmounted the apostles interpretation of the OT scriptures. You'll to explain away why the apostles stated they believed they were living in the last times, and why the author of hebrews states they "have come" to mount zion in order to support your position.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then why is the rider wearing a crown? That is a symbol of authority; of kingship.
IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.

When did God ever refer to His Church as an infant? Christians ALL start out as infants in Christ and must mature. You are right, there is no "thus says the Lord calling the church an infant.

Paul wrote: "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly -- mere infants in Christ.
The Bride is most talked about in END TIME scriptures.
not a ruler I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.

if the first seal is supposed to represent a victorious church, why then does war, famine, death, martyrdom It's very simple: Satan is still the god of this world. He HATES the church, hates all Christians, and hates the gospel with a passion. But God sent the church out into the devil's world to conquer or overcome, and the church has accomplished it.

who or what is supposed to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other? God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.

And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.

The fourth seal is destined to kill off a fourth of mankind No no no! You don't read very well. God has LIMITED the war horse, the famine horse and death in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can BET that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started.
Did you just overlook that they were to kill:
with the sword = the Red Horse.
With hunger = the Black horse
With Death = the pale horse.

I hope you know that the black plague hit Europe twice, killing about 1/3 of the people each time. This was the pale horse at work.

Do you see that the white horse is not with these three doing Satan's bidding? He has been trying to stop the gospel from the beginning.

These cataclysms do not seem to represent what is supposed to take place in the church age
Wake up! Read your history: these DEFINE the church age.

The seals are worldwide cataclysms that claim a number of lives of the likes we have not seen. Human reasoning not backed up by scripture.

Anyone claiming that the first seal is the church is going to have a very difficult time explaining the rest of the seals as far as their placement in the time line goes. Of course NOT! John started with the church sent out (Go therefore) and continued right on through the church age. We are not at the 5th seal martyrs, as people are still being added and judgment (the 6th seal) is still future. John then walks is right through the 70th week marked by the 7th seal to the 7th vial.

But John’s visions ARE of all things to come. Certainly they are, but God chose to mix in some history when necessary. He wanted to introduce John to the book, but CHOSE to start when the book was still in the Father's hand. that was perhaps 60 years previous to 95 AD so God HAD to use some history. Don't LIMIT God: He is all powerful.

The only time that John was ever given a glimpse into the past was so that he could understand what is to come.
Case in point: the BOOK still in the hand of the Father: circa 32 AD. Congratulations on noticing that Rev. 12:1-5 is also a glimpse of John's past. Few understand that.

Other than what we read in Revelation chapter 12 concerning the woman, the dragon, and the baby she gives birth to, there is no scriptural example of John ever being given visions of the past. You MISSED chapters 4 & 5, not understanding the Author's intent there.

The Lamb that was slain appears from the throne (Rev. 5:6) suggesting He had been there all along. No, He just suddenly appeared in the throne room which John was seeing in this vision. God's point in Him NOT being seen at the right hand of the Father is that He was NOT THERE. God's point in "no man found" is that He was NOT THERE: still under the earth. His point in showing John the Holy Spirit STILL there was that He had not yet ascended. But in chapter 5 He suddenly appears, showing us He JUST ascended. This is proven by the fact that He then sent the Holy Spirit down.


Nobody in John’s vision saw Him ascend from the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room. God was giving him the TIMING of the first seal.

They did not watch Him take His place on the throne. he went straight to take the book from the Father and start opening the seals: God showing John the TIMING of the first seal.

And there was never a time in which the Holy Spirit was ever confined to the Kingdom of Heaven. True, but this is a VISION and God wanted to make the point that Jesus had NOT ascended YET to send Him down. But that happened in chapter 5.

He came from the throne which can only mean one thing: None of the seals have anything to do with the church age. MYTH: human reasoning.

God uses whatever imagery He sees fit to convey whatever message.
Exactly: that is why He showed John a vision of the throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit there and not YET sent down, and a search for one worthy that ended in failure. These things were necessary because God chose to show John the book while it was still in the Father's hand. I am out of time



“IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.”




But we do not have our crowns yet. That will not be made manifest until we stand before our Lord and receive our rewards.




“I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.”




Looks like a ruler to me. How does he not look like a ruler to you? He is wearing a crown which signifies authority after all.





“God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.


And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.”




This doesn’t like anything different than what Satan has been doing almost since day one. If this is what the seals after the white rider are depicting, then they don’t seem to depict anything different than what has already been happening in this fallen and increasingly dark world which would render the seals of war, famine and death with hell following after it virtually meaningless.


In order for them to have any meaning, they have to signify something different and much more than just a war between nations, famines in certain places, outbreaks of disease within certain societies, or even typical animal attacks. They have to be something that affects more than just a few nations or certain regions of the world and they do because they affect the entire earth. No place on the planet is exempt from the event that take place with the opening of each seal.


Otherwise, John was shown a half way meaningless sight showing him things he already knew were destined to take place. Not every nation is at war. Famine has not hit every nation yet. Deadly diseases are not decimating the populaces of every nation. And the animals are not going mad and trying to kill everyone.

“God has LIMITED the war horse, the famine horse and death in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can BET that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started. Did you just overlook that they were to kill:

with the sword = the Red Horse.

With hunger = the Black horse

With Death = the pale horse.”



The ¼ is mentioned concerning the pale horse. The same wasn’t said about the other two horses before him. Plus death brings with it two other calamities the other two don’t: Death by disease and animals. Do not forget that hell follows after death indicating that everyone who dies by the sword, famine, disease, and the animals is an unbelieving soul. There are only two ways that could possibly if the pale horse is currently unleashed in the manner described in the scriptures because there is a Christian presence in virtually every nation presently (more so in some nations than in others:


There is no Christian presence in ¼ of the earth in which the pale horse and hell have power, or if there is, death is not allowed to claim their lives by the means that it is using to take the lives of the unbelieving souls.




“Do you see that the white horse is not with these three doing Satan's bidding? He has been trying to stop the gospel from the beginning.”




They follow each other. One after the other thus indicating their connection to one another.





“Wake up! Read your history: these DEFINE the church age.”




If the seals are according to your rendering, then they do not define the church age or any age. They just simply define a fallen world and its tragedies. You are the one that might want to check his history on that.




“We are not at the 5th seal martyrs, as people are still being added.”




I agree that we are not. That has to do with a time that has not yet come, but even presently Christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith, and in greater numbers at present than they ever have been in past times.




“Don't LIMIT God: He is all powerful.”




Rendering scripture according to its proper context is not limiting God.




“You MISSED chapters 4 & 5, not understanding the Author's intent there.”




That is because I am still skeptical of your rendering of these chapters.




“John was seeing a vision of the throne room. God was giving him the TIMING of the first seal.”




I don’t remember seeing a date stamped on it.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
“IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.”

But we do not have our crowns yet. That will not be made manifest until we stand before our Lord and receive our rewards.
.

That is one reason why we know this is a vision of the past. God knew from the beginning that the church would be victorious. So here He shows the church with a victor's crown, showing ultimate victory.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married


“I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.”

Looks like a ruler to me. How does he not look like a ruler to you? He is wearing a crown which signifies authority after all.
We have already shown the church wears a VICTOR's crown, not a crown of royalty.
You are simply mistaken in your deduction of this verse.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
“God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.

And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.”

This doesn’t like anything different than what Satan has been doing almost since day one. If this is what the seals after the white rider are depicting, then they don’t seem to depict anything different than what has already been happening in this fallen and increasingly dark world which would render the seals of war, famine and death with hell following after it virtually meaningless.


In order for them to have any meaning, they have to signify something different and much more than just a war between nations, famines in certain places, outbreaks of disease within certain societies, or even typical animal attacks. They have to be something that affects more than just a few nations or certain regions of the world and they do because they affect the entire earth. No place on the planet is exempt from the event that take place with the opening of each seal.


Otherwise, John was shown a half way meaningless sight showing him things he already knew were destined to take place. Not every nation is at war. Famine has not hit every nation yet. Deadly diseases are not decimating the populaces of every nation. And the animals are not going mad and trying to kill everyone..

I found a chart on all the wars in Europe since the first century. It was amazing: hardly a year anywhere in the last 2000 years where there was not war going on somewhere in Europe.

It was not meaningless. I will admit, there have been wars in China, NOT included in the 1/4 of the earth God limited them too. But since the gospel began in Jerusalem, the middle east, Satan was not interested in the beginning to stop the gospel in China. It did not start there.

The truth is, wars have been almost continuous when we consider this entire 1/4 of the earth.

what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine it seems you wish to choose to ignore the 1/4 of the earth. There have been famines in other parts of the world OCCASIONALLY. But in Africa, over and over.

they don’t seem to depict anything different than what has already been happening in this fallen and increasingly dark world
What usually happens to missionaries when a war starts, or when a famine hits, or say Yellow Fever breaks out? Missionaries go home! That is one of the reasons Satan brings them.

They have to be something that affects more than just a few nations or certain regions of the world and they do because they affect the entire earth. No place on the planet is exempt from the event that take place with the opening of each seal.
You can argue against the written word, but I can assure you, it will be futile.
They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
I didn't say it, GOD said it.
 
Upvote 0