Then why is the rider wearing a crown? That is a symbol of authority; of kingship.
IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.
When did God ever refer to His Church as an infant? Christians ALL start out as infants in Christ and must mature. You are right, there is no "thus says the Lord calling the church an infant.
Paul wrote: "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly -- mere infants in Christ.
The Bride is most talked about in END TIME scriptures.
not a ruler I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.
if the first seal is supposed to represent a victorious church, why then does war, famine, death, martyrdom It's very simple: Satan is still the god of this world. He HATES the church, hates all Christians, and hates the gospel with a passion. But God sent the church out into the devil's world to conquer or overcome, and the church has accomplished it.
who or what is supposed to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other? God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.
And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.
The fourth seal is destined to kill off a fourth of mankind No no no! You don't read very well. God has LIMITED the war horse, the famine horse and death in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can BET that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started.
Did you just overlook that they were to kill:
with the sword = the Red Horse.
With hunger = the Black horse
With Death = the pale horse.
I hope you know that the black plague hit Europe twice, killing about 1/3 of the people each time. This was the pale horse at work.
Do you see that the white horse is not with these three doing Satan's bidding? He has been trying to stop the gospel from the beginning.
These cataclysms do not seem to represent what is supposed to take place in the church age
Wake up! Read your history: these DEFINE the church age.
The seals are worldwide cataclysms that claim a number of lives of the likes we have not seen. Human reasoning not backed up by scripture.
Anyone claiming that the first seal is the church is going to have a very difficult time explaining the rest of the seals as far as their placement in the time line goes. Of course NOT! John started with the church sent out (Go therefore) and continued right on through the church age. We are not at the 5th seal martyrs, as people are still being added and judgment (the 6th seal) is still future. John then walks is right through the 70th week marked by the 7th seal to the 7th vial.
But John’s visions ARE of all things to come. Certainly they are, but God chose to mix in some history when necessary. He wanted to introduce John to the book, but CHOSE to start when the book was still in the Father's hand. that was perhaps 60 years previous to 95 AD so God HAD to use some history. Don't LIMIT God: He is all powerful.
The only time that John was ever given a glimpse into the past was so that he could understand what is to come. Case in point: the BOOK still in the hand of the Father: circa 32 AD. Congratulations on noticing that Rev. 12:1-5 is also a glimpse of John's past. Few understand that.
Other than what we read in Revelation chapter 12 concerning the woman, the dragon, and the baby she gives birth to, there is no scriptural example of John ever being given visions of the past. You MISSED chapters 4 & 5, not understanding the Author's intent there.
The Lamb that was slain appears from the throne (Rev. 5:6) suggesting He had been there all along. No, He just suddenly appeared in the throne room which John was seeing in this vision. God's point in Him NOT being seen at the right hand of the Father is that He was NOT THERE. God's point in "no man found" is that He was NOT THERE: still under the earth. His point in showing John the Holy Spirit STILL there was that He had not yet ascended. But in chapter 5 He suddenly appears, showing us He JUST ascended. This is proven by the fact that He then sent the Holy Spirit down.
Nobody in John’s vision saw Him ascend from the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room. God was giving him the TIMING of the first seal.
They did not watch Him take His place on the throne. he went straight to take the book from the Father and start opening the seals: God showing John the TIMING of the first seal.
And there was never a time in which the Holy Spirit was ever confined to the Kingdom of Heaven. True, but this is a VISION and God wanted to make the point that Jesus had NOT ascended YET to send Him down. But that happened in chapter 5.
He came from the throne which can only mean one thing: None of the seals have anything to do with the church age. MYTH: human reasoning.
God uses whatever imagery He sees fit to convey whatever message. Exactly: that is why He showed John a vision of the throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit there and not YET sent down, and a search for one worthy that ended in failure. These things were necessary because God chose to show John the book while it was still in the Father's hand. I am out of time
“IT is a VICTOR'S crown. The church started out victorious and will end victorious.”
But we do not have our crowns yet. That will not be made manifest until we stand before our Lord and receive our rewards.
“I don't get "ruler" out of the first seal.”
Looks like a ruler to me. How does he not look like a ruler to you? He is wearing a crown which signifies authority after all.
“God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to start wars to attempt to stop the gospel. How many wars have been faught in their alloted 1/4 of the planet, centered on Jerusalem? That would take in the Middle East, Europe and Africa. There have been countless wars faught in this area, included two world wars. Satan was counting on wars stopping the gospel.
And what event is supposed to bring the worldwide famine God has allowed Satan, as the prince of this world, to us famine to stop the gospel. Where in our lifetimes has there been famine after famine? Africa.”
This doesn’t like anything different than what Satan has been doing almost since day one. If this is what the seals after the white rider are depicting, then they don’t seem to depict anything different than what has already been happening in this fallen and increasingly dark world which would render the seals of war, famine and death with hell following after it virtually meaningless.
In order for them to have any meaning, they have to signify something different and much more than just a war between nations, famines in certain places, outbreaks of disease within certain societies, or even typical animal attacks. They have to be something that affects more than just a few nations or certain regions of the world and they do because they affect the entire earth. No place on the planet is exempt from the event that take place with the opening of each seal.
Otherwise, John was shown a half way meaningless sight showing him things he already knew were destined to take place. Not every nation is at war. Famine has not hit every nation yet. Deadly diseases are not decimating the populaces of every nation. And the animals are not going mad and trying to kill everyone.
“God has LIMITED the war horse, the famine horse and death in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can BET that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started. Did you just overlook that they were to kill:
with the sword = the Red Horse.
With hunger = the Black horse
With Death = the pale horse.”
The ¼ is mentioned concerning the pale horse. The same wasn’t said about the other two horses before him. Plus death brings with it two other calamities the other two don’t: Death by disease and animals. Do not forget that hell follows after death indicating that everyone who dies by the sword, famine, disease, and the animals is an unbelieving soul. There are only two ways that could possibly if the pale horse is currently unleashed in the manner described in the scriptures because there is a Christian presence in virtually every nation presently (more so in some nations than in others:
There is no Christian presence in ¼ of the earth in which the pale horse and hell have power, or if there is, death is not allowed to claim their lives by the means that it is using to take the lives of the unbelieving souls.
“Do you see that the white horse is not with these three doing Satan's bidding? He has been trying to stop the gospel from the beginning.”
They follow each other. One after the other thus indicating their connection to one another.
“Wake up! Read your history: these DEFINE the church age.”
If the seals are according to your rendering, then they do not define the church age or any age. They just simply define a fallen world and its tragedies. You are the one that might want to check his history on that.
“We are not at the 5th seal martyrs, as people are still being added.”
I agree that we are not. That has to do with a time that has not yet come, but even presently Christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith, and in greater numbers at present than they ever have been in past times.
“Don't LIMIT God: He is all powerful.”
Rendering scripture according to its proper context is not limiting God.
“You MISSED chapters 4 & 5, not understanding the Author's intent there.”
That is because I am still skeptical of your rendering of these chapters.
“John was seeing a vision of the throne room. God was giving him the TIMING of the first seal.”
I don’t remember seeing a date stamped on it.