The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Status
Not open for further replies.

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe I'm still reading him exactly right. IF GOD SAVES then he is living a farce of a life, because he isn't living life now. Hence he doesn't really line up with the BIBLE definition of having aionian life now by "knowing God and his son Jesus".
You are misquoting him. He didn't say: "IF GOD SAVES"
He was addressing the Universalism topic claim that everyone will be saved.
If that is the case, what is this life here on earth about?
Seems to be a farce (from his view) if what you are claiming is true.
If we all end up in the same place, what difference does any of this make? (a farce)

@PaulCyp1 said:
If God is going to save all people, what is the purpose of this farce we call life on Earth?
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
It seems that the firstfruits are in reference to those prior to the Second Coming. At least according to the scripture you provided (1CO 15:22) Nothing about a level of maturity. How are such things measured? Could I have been more mature? (of course) Was I mature enough? (who could say) -- As soon as we add ANYTHING to the vicarious atonement it causes problems.

You seem to be claiming that people who heeded Christ's warnings about hell aren't really saved, but then claiming everyone will be saved. Seems contradictory somehow. Will those pew-polishers be punished for joining the church?

Dear Saint Steven: I will not allow your youth and inexperience to keep you from grasping a mite more. You do NOT come to the Lord Jesus Christ thru fear of hell. That, my dear saint, comes about as He draws, drags off in power and impels us unto Himself.

Your word for today= helko
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear Saint Steven: how are you regarding Hebrew? You are surely aware that there are over 20 distinct words for destruction. Would you be able to tell us how many of those words link destruction with being bought to change & transformation?

Dear Saint: Time is up, my young friend. Your answer=

The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.

Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!

There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.

Chalowph

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It seems that the firstfruits are in reference to those prior to the Second Coming. At least according to the scripture you provided (1CO 15:22) Nothing about a level of maturity. How are such things measured? Could I have been more mature? (of course) Was I mature enough? (who could say) -- As soon as we add ANYTHING to the vicarious atonement it causes problems.

You seem to be claiming that people who heeded Christ's warnings about hell aren't really saved, but then claiming everyone will be saved. Seems contradictory somehow. Will those pew-polishers be punished for joining the church?
I think level of maturity is exactly what is measured. And Fine Linen posted the Greek word indicating such is the case. But he expects one to go search for the field when he has showed the pearl hidden.
And in this case it was the word "malista" which he posted with no response from you. And I do understand Steve, you have a plethora of info being presented here.

1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

So, God saves ALL but He saves those to the GREATEST DEGREE who actually believe and become what He has called us to do and be. Most warm a pew.

Break down the word AT-ONE-MENT. God made all the world ONE when Jesus died for the sins of ALL on Calvary. Price paid for ALL. You receiving it doesn't change the fact that ultimately it has been paid and God has no problem with anyone when the plan of salvation consummates in the "ages to come".
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear Saint Steven:

The Restitution of all things, declared from the earliest ages through the prophets of the Most High One, is entirely based within the Most High God of glory. The foundation has absolutely nothing to do with what the broken vessels of mankind do, or not do. NADA!

All dimensions of the heavens, the earth & the underworld ultimately bow in worship before Him, and confess IN/EN His glorious Name>>>>"You are Lord."

This confession is NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but in union with, and IN, His Name!

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension in antiphonal worship

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear U.F.:I am not an authority regarding what constitutes the Father's greatest "miracle". The amazing experience of what begins with His first touch is a wondrous happening indeed, beginning in one of the three tenses of the present continuous, & culminating in dimensions beyond exceedingly.

These called out ones are the malista of the Father's reach as the Saviour of all mankind, the especially articulated by the Apostle. God gives few details of His mysterious workings, in fact, his workings by Spirit are in the realm of "how can these things be"?

Your word again today=

Ta panta


"From Him, through Him, for Him the all"

Take #3

According to St. Peter, can you show us what the outcome of the complete destruction of the world inhabitants was -8 on the ark?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by/ thru water."

Your questions=

1. What does disobedient mean?

2. Why did the risen Christ preach to the "disobedient" dead?

3. What was the outcome of His ministry to them?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ETERNAL HELL theology makes GOD eternally Hitler. GOD's punishments purge the wicked of unrighteousness now in this earth and 'then' in their "earthen vessels" and the smoke of that torment ISN'T THEM....it is what our God will consume from them to deal with their unrighteousness.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
What you call "ETERNAL HELL theology" has a biblical basis. What you are presenting is a difference of opinion served up on an emotional platter. It would be great if there was no hell, but we can't create such a situation with wishful thinking. Not much difference from my perspective between what you guys call a fear-based salvation and the shame-based emotionalism of Universalism. How dare I accuse God of being worse than Hitler? What's wrong with me? -- Seriously?

The verse you shared begins with the word "for", so I wanted to see what it was there for. Seems to be that fear-based idea you are teaching against.

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Go tell me how many times the apostle Paul greatest evangelist in the NT church used the word hell. And report back on this one Steve, because I have a surprise for you.
Didn't you already tell me that the word "hell" is nowhere to be found in the Bible?
Kind of a moot point. There is more than one way to say eternal punishment.
 
Upvote 0

ilovejcsog

I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox
Jul 23, 2018
1,607
955
Phoenix
✟21,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Calling someone wrong because they believe differently is not right. Who's to say you are not wrong in your beliefs? Only God knows for sure. Two people discussing with each other against another poster is low. Its like gossiping and it is only meant to shame or harm the person and demean them in the readers eyes. None of us agree in all aspects and we should respect others right to have a differing opinion without demeaning them. You all seem to have lost your humble.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I feared in my one PM attempt with you Steve, this thread is already consuming too much of my time. I need to take a break also. I know you have way more to study, if you'd really like to show yourself approved also. And I'm really surprise that all those guys you named are missing here, aren't you?
Yup, take a break, buddy.
Chime in whenever you want. I don't expect immediate answers. At your pace is fine.

I appreciate that you know how to speak at my level. The topic originator doesn't know how. Seems like a fine fellow, but I doubt that I could communicate on any meaningful level with him. No offense to anyone. Like you said, what he had for me was way above my pay grade. And I don't really want homework assignments.

And in reference to all the guys I posted, I haven't read enough to see where/why they left. I'm guessing they gave up and have no desire to return. The reason for which I do not know.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's a question I thought of today.
I'm trying to establish my mindset on this as I go. I have never debated the subject before. But I knew that the OP didn't set well with me, as you may have expected. Here's the question.

We are told very clearly in the first chapter of John that the right to become the children of God is tied to receiving Christ. How then can the lost become children of God, if it is tied to receiving Christ? I doesn't require any faith to receive Christ in the afterlife when you are face to face.

John 1:11-12
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And yet here you are wasting no time jumping in the box of orthodoxy to defend that very FEAR base doctrine, and pretty boldly.
I should clarify my position here. (for what it's worth) My reference post is below.

Though I don't experience the fear of hell that some do, nor was I saved on that basis, I do view the eternal destiny of the lost to be aimed in that direction. How the final judgment will work is a mystery. I am left to trust God in the way he applies his justice. The Bible tells us that there is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) We can't dismiss these things simply because we can't fathom them.

What I posted
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And just to be clear, I have never suffered from a personal fear of hell for myself, but have instead been concerned with the very real threat of a Christless eternity for the lost. In fact I was called under that very circumstance. Thinking it good that others should "go forward" to receive Christ, the Father asked me, "If you think it is good for them, why haven't you done it?" A very captivating thought for an eight year old boy. I wasted no time to get down front and receive Him personally.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear Saint Steven:

According to St. Peter, can you show us what the outcome of the complete destruction of the world inhabitants was -8 on the ark?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by/thru water."

Your questions=

1. What does disobedient mean?

2. Why did the risen Christ preach to the "disobedient" dead?

3. What was the outcome of His ministry to them?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There should be four questions. This should be question number three.

3. Where was the prison where Christ preached to the dead? (hell)

The Creeds tell us, … He descended into hell... (hades - the realm of the dead)
Where the worm does not die and the fire never goes out. (mercy)
How can you claim that such does not exist?
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
There should be four questions. This should be question number three.

3. Where was the prison where Christ preached to the dead? (hell)

The Creeds tell us, … He descended into hell... (hades - the realm of the dead)
Where the worm does not die and the fire never goes out. (mercy)
How can you claim that such does not exist?

Dear Saint Stephen: if you prefer 4 questions, it shall be. You, however, have failed to answer the 3 presented.

Just to clarify for you: I believe in hell. I also believe hell is consummated in the Lake of all lakes, the Lake of Fire & Deity. I also believe if you make your bed in hell, the Lord Jesus Christ is there.

"If I make my bed in hell, behold You are there."

Take #2

According to St. Peter, can you show us what the outcome of the complete destruction of the world inhabitants was -8 on the ark?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by/thru water."

Your questions=

1. What does disobedient mean?

2. Why did the risen Christ preach to the "disobedient" dead?

3. What was the outcome of His ministry to them?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why do you assume I am obligated to accept assignments from you? And then claim I have failed when I don't complete them. Seems a bit presumptuous to me.

I can see the point you are trying to make about the flood and those in hell. But how much faith does it take to believe in Jesus when you are already in hell? Will they be welcomed into heaven with a hearty, "Well done my good and faithful servant." ???

Those who ended up there after his resurrection have been in hell for over 2000 years. Does that seem cruel to you? I suppose they will jump at the chance to escape. Assuming there is one.

I had a dream that I had gone to heaven and it was my first day on the job. I was assigned to help with the backyard barbecue at one of the grills. Jesus himself approached my grill, so I asked him how he liked his burgers, rare, medium, or well. He smiled and said, "Well done my good and faithful servant."
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Why do you assume I am obligated to accept assignments from you? And then claim I have failed when I don't complete them. Seems a bit presumptuous to me.

I can see the point you are trying to make about the flood and those in hell. But how much faith does it take to believe in Jesus when you are already in hell? Will they be welcomed into heaven with a hearty, "Well done my good and faithful servant." ???

Those who ended up there after his resurrection have been in hell for over 2000 years. Does that seem cruel to you? I suppose they will jump at the chance to escape. Assuming there is one.

I had a dream that I had gone to heaven and it was my first day on the job. I was assigned to help with the backyard barbecue at one of the grills. Jesus himself approached my grill, so I asked him how he liked his burgers, rare, medium, or well. He smiled and said, "Well done my good and faithful servant."
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear Saint Steven: What is the point I am attempting to make regarding the Masters descent of ministry to the disobedient ones?

Take # 3

According to St. Peter, can you show us what the outcome of the complete destruction of the world inhabitants was -8 on the ark?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by/thru water."

Your questions=

1. What does disobedient mean?

2. Why did the risen Christ preach to the "disobedient" dead?

3. What was the outcome of His ministry to them?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
May I speak with a human?
I don't care for this automated communication system.

It just set me up for strike three. I don't even want to play ball.
While it claims I have missed the first two pitches and now the third, I suppose.
Seems a bit judgmental.

Hillsage will be back at some point. Maybe he can help.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
May I speak with a human?
I don't care for this automated communication system.

It just set me up for strike three. I don't even want to play ball.
While it claims I have missed the first two pitches and now the third, I suppose.
Seems a bit judgmental.

This is no ball game, Saint S., I fully understand why you attempt to avoid such a line of thinking, you are not alone in your approach.

The fact remains, the Risen Lord of Glory exceeds our grasp of His magnificent ministry of Reconciliation!

He is Lord of the heavens, the earth, the underworld
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.