Small minority of the Elect make it to Heaven

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

CherubRam said:
So then, Satan told the truth when he said "you will not surly die."

Not at all.

Do not confuse modern western ideas of life and death with ancient mid eastern ones. Death does not mean the cessation of existence or consciousness. It means separation from God. While God may exist in Hell, He is separate from everyone and is only an observer.

Remember what God told Adam: In the day you eat of it you shall surely die." Not a hundred or a thousand years AFTER you eat of it, the very same day. And what happened that day, Adam and Eve were separated from God? They died.

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

CherubRam said:
Is there eternal life in Hell ...?

No. There is perpetual separation; that means perpetual death.

I probably should have worded my earlier response to use perpetual instead of eternal.

Eternal has neither beginning or end.
Perpetual has a beginning but no end.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
Not at all.

Do not confuse modern western ideas of life and death with ancient mid eastern ones. Death does not mean the cessation of existence or consciousness. It means separation from God. While God may exist in Hell, He is separate from everyone and is only an observer.

Remember what God told Adam: In the day you eat of it you shall surely die." Not a hundred or a thousand years AFTER you eat of it, the very same day. And what happened that day, Adam and Eve were separated from God? They died.

I would like to see some scriptures for what you claim?

As for time, "a thousand years is like a day to the Lord." Epoch of time.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
No. There is perpetual separation; that means perpetual death.

I probably should have worded my earlier response to use perpetual instead of eternal.

Eternal has neither beginning or end.
Perpetual has a beginning but no end.

Some verses say "eternal punishment" whereas one or two say "torment."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

CherubRam said:
Some verses say "eternal punishment" whereas one or two say "torment."

That is a translation problem.

CherubRam said:
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Written from an entirely HUMAN viewpoint.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
That is a translation problem.

Written from an entirely HUMAN viewpoint.

I wrote an Internet article under the name CherubRam about
Annihilationism. Have you read it?

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

CherubRam said:
I wrote an Internet article under the name CherubRam about
Annihilationism. Have you read it?

I have not. And I do intend to; as I do not see "Annihilationism" as biblical whatsoever.

I see it as an attempt to try and limit punishment based on entirely human terms rather than taking God at His word.

trophy33 · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
Of course. Eternal conscious torment/torture for the unrighteous.

Dont you feel that such idea is a strange thing for a true, loving God?

Not even an evil man would do such a thing as is an eternal conscious torture of his enemy. Not to say our God.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
I have not. And I do intend to; as I do not see "Annihilationism" as biblical whatsoever.

I see it as an attempt to try and limit punishment based on entirely human terms rather than taking God at His word.

Because the Hebrew word "Sheol" never ever translates as "Hell," it is the reason I wrote what the bible really says.

Christ came speaking in parables and the word Gehenna is used as a parable.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem used for dumping broken pottery.

Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.

Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

Jeremiah 19:13-15
The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

That is Gehenna Judgment that Yahshua came and warned Israel about.

Psalm 31:12
I am forgotten as though I were dead; I have become like broken pottery.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

myst33 said:
Not even an evil man would do such a thing as is an eternal conscious torture of his enemy. Not to say our God.

That is man’s opinion, not what God had written in the Bible.

What do you do with Revelation?

Everyone not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Put that together with our Lord’s comments in Matthew - where the smoke of their torment rises forever.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
That is man’s opinion, not what God had written in the Bible.

What do you do with Revelation?

Everyone not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Put that together with our Lord’s comments in Matthew - where the smoke of their torment rises forever.

The book of Revelation is written in the parabolic form. The words "lake of fire," means the "body of people in judgement."

"Smoke of their (torment / punishment) means "judgement of their punishment." The words "smoke" and "coal" are related the the word "fire."

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2019

You are twisting meanings away from Peshat. Stick with peshat as it is always correct. The other levels meanings are a bit more fluid.

Rajni · Jun 24, 2019

CherubRam said:
OK then, so you believe in a Hell then?

Whether one believes in hell or not, if ( if ) there is a hell (whatever that may entail), omnipresence would mean God is there as well. If one believes in an omnipresent God and also believes in Mordor, then logically one would believe that God is in Mordor too.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
You are twisting meanings away from Peshat. Stick with peshat as it is always correct. The other levels meanings are a bit more fluid.

Parables operate in and out of context and should not be taken as literal.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2019

RayJeena said:
Whether one believes in hell or not, if ( if ) there is a hell (whatever that may entail), omnipresence would mean God is there as well. If one believes in an omnipresent God and also believes in Mordor, then logically one would believe that God is in Mordor too.

The word "Hell" is not in the original bible text. The words Gehenna, pit, and Sheol, never ever translate as Hell. Hell is entirely a different concept.

trophy33 · Jun 24, 2019

Dave-W said:
That is man’s opinion, not what God had written in the Bible.

What do you do with Revelation?

Everyone not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Put that together with our Lord’s comments in Matthew - where the smoke of their torment rises forever.

God never in the Old Testement or anywere gave torture as a punishment for anything.

I will rather put some bible verses I do not understand aside than to put God's character aside. God is more than Bible. God is not a torturer who will torture his creation for eternity just for the goal of torturing them.

Dave-W · Jun 25, 2019

myst33 said:
God never in the Old Testement or anywere gave torture as a punishment for anything.

I will rather put some bible verses I do not understand aside than to put God's character aside. God is more than Bible. God is not a torturer who will torture his creation for eternity just for the goal of torturing them.

Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

God can be just as severe as He is kind. Don't ignore that.

trophy33 · Jun 25, 2019

Dave-W said:
Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

God can be just as severe as He is kind. Don't ignore that.

Eternal torturing of somebody who has no chance anymore is not something we can ascribe to a real, true God.

No text will help you with this simple logic and morality.

Dave-W · Jun 25, 2019

myst33 said:
Eternal torturing of somebody who has no chance anymore is not something we can ascribe to a real, true God.

No text will help you with this simple logic and morality.

All I can tell you is that you are looking at it from an entirely human perspective on what is moral. You are NOT trusting what God said and believing HIM to fit his own TRUE morality.

holo · Jun 25, 2019

Dave-W said:
Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

God can be just as severe as He is kind. Don't ignore that.

Imagine that satan wins and gets to do exactly as he pleases with people for eternity. Would that be any different to what you believe God is going to do to most of his creation (which he supposedly loves)?

I know it's an extremely common thing in Christianity, but that doesn't make it any more true. There is simply no way that God can both torture someone infinitely AND judge righteously. It's not rocket science, it's not complicated exegesis, it's really the most fundamental truth there is: you can't both be righteous and the worst torturer imaginable. One of those ideas of God has to go. IMO it should be obvious that there must be some faulty interpretation or translation somewhere in your understanding of the scriptures, or else we can safely assume that those who wrote it were just as confused.

Small minority of the Elect make it to Heaven

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