Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Shrunk back from what??

Heb 10: 37-39 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." (Hab 3:3,4LXX) But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

The "shrink back" is with reference to Hab 3:3,4 in the Septuagint which the writer of Hebrews quotes. These are all relevant to your reference to Heb 10. Those who turn away from the faith will be destroyed. But, as I pointed out, he predicts that "we" are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. You're alleging that a person's final salvation is indeterminate given free will. So how do you explain this? That's my point. The only way he could have made such a prediction is that if the outcome was inevitable.

Wordkeeper said:
Hebrews 3
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Same applies to the Heb 3 passage. Notice he says, "we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast." Heb 3:6 He doesn't say "we will be his house, if ..." He uses the present tense. Once again he can only use the present tense here if the outcome, the "if statement", is an indicator of our present state rather than something that causes us to be his house. It's consistent with the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. It's inevitable that those are presently in his house will endure to the end in their faith. This as opposed to the idea that enduring to the end in the faith is a condition for salvation.

Don't confuse the condition for salvation with the condition of the saved. Many Christians don't have genuine faith in Christ, and so don't enter his rest because of unbelief.

Phil W · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I'm using "unregenerate" as in not born again of the Spirit. They are sanctified.

That doesn't sound right...
I find it hard to see folks without the Spirit as "sanctified".

Phil W · Jun 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
The root of this type of argument lies in the conflation of Sanctification and Justification.

We are saved and sealed (Justified) the instant we abide in HIM.

Sanctification is a process that goes forward till death and has no salvational bearing ... as God doesn’t lose what is placed in His hands by those that fall on their knees in repentance, in response to 1 John 2:2

God's Spirit will not reside in a polluted, unsanctified temple.

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
How can an unregenerate be sanctified?

The sense is that he professed to be sanctified and consequently identified with the visible church. This was a nominal Christian. There are lots and lots of such Christians in the visible church. The real believers are the "we" he refers to in Heb 10:39 which is why he speaks differently of them.

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

Phil W said:
God's Spirit will not reside in a polluted, unsanctified temple.

IMO... And there in lies the lie. “While we were yet sinners”...

He ate with sinners... so now the (Romans 8:9) can’t claim them as His?!?

Explain how HE can enter sinners hearts, but can’t stay in forgiven sinners.

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

Phil W said:
Doing x doesn't mean y and z will be done.
Didn't Paul say a bunch more while the jailer dressed his wounds?
Don't you think the jailer asked "What lord"?

That is the message of the NT.
Freedom from the oppressor. (John 8:34)

This is called adding to scripture.

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
The root of this type of argument lies in the conflation of Sanctification and Justification.

We are saved and sealed (Justified) the instant we abide in HIM.

Sanctification is a process that goes forward till death and has no salvational bearing ... as God doesn’t lose what is placed in His hands by those that fall on their knees in repentance, in response to 1 John 2:2

Where in scripture do you see "sanctification" as a process?

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Phil W said:
That doesn't sound right...
I find it hard to see folks without the Spirit as "sanctified".

Exactly. That is my point.

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
The sense is that he professed to be sanctified and consequently identified with the visible church. This was a nominal Christian. There are lots and lots of such Christians in the visible church. The real believers are the "we" he refers to in Heb 10:39 which is why he speaks differently of them.

Actually it was the author of Hebrews that was calling him sanctified.

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

Phil W said:
Doing x doesn't mean y and z will be done.
Didn't Paul say a bunch more while the jailer dressed his wounds?
Don't you think the jailer asked "What lord"?

That is the message of the NT.
Freedom from the oppressor. (John 8:34)

CharismaticLady said:
Exactly. That is my point.

CharismaticLady said:
Where in scripture do you see "sanctification" as a process?

1 Thessalonians 4:9-10 ; Ephesians 3:17 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Philippians 1:9 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:12 ; Hebrews 6:19 ; Romans 5:5-10 ; Jeremiah 17:7-8 ; 1 Corinthians 15 ; 1 John 2:27 ; Philippians 2 ; 2 Corinthians 13:9 ; Romans 7

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
1 Thessalonians 4:9-10 ; Ephesians 3:17 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Philippians 1:9 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:12 ; Hebrews 6:19 ; Romans 5:5-10 ; Jeremiah 17:7-8 ; 1 Corinthians 15 ; 1 John 2:27 ; Philippians 2 ; 2 Corinthians 13:9 ; Romans 7

Thanks for looking up all those scriptures, but I still don't see where sanctification is called a process.

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Where in scripture do you see "sanctification" as a process?

Grip Docility said:
1 Thessalonians 4:9-10 ; Ephesians 3:17 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Philippians 1:9 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:12 ; Hebrews 6:19 ; Romans 5:5-10 ; Jeremiah 17:7-8 ; 1 Corinthians 15 ; 1 John 2:27 ; Philippians 2 ; 2 Corinthians 13:9 ; Romans 7

CharismaticLady said:
Thanks for looking up all those scriptures, but I still don't see where sanctification is called a process.

We aren’t there till we DIE, physically, and God is working on our soul until death.

1 Corinthians 15 makes this clear.

Paul even uses a fairly abrasive way of emphasizing this.

Sanctification is about Growing in Love.

Wordkeeper · Jun 24, 2019

Phil W said:
Who is "her/she"?

The thief lacked nothing.
He met the requirements for salvation, was paid the "wages of sin"-death, was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and Jesus promised that he would be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life....just like our baptism into Christ and into His death. {Rom 6:3-6)
If the thief held on to his faith unto death, all of Jesus' promises would be granted.

The her/she is Israel.

The promise to Abraham is that the world would be blessed through his descendants. None of the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11 saw this promise. Was the thief a blessing to the world? Peter could walk down a street and people would be blessed ...

Wordkeeper · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Heb 10: 37-39 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." (Hab 3:3,4LXX) But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

The "shrink back" is with reference to Hab 3:3,4 in the Septuagint which the writer of Hebrews quotes. These are all relevant to your reference to Heb 10. Those who turn away from the faith will be destroyed. But, as I pointed out, he predicts that "we" are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. You're alleging that a person's final salvation is indeterminate given free will. So how do you explain this? That's my point. The only way he could have made such a prediction is that if the outcome was inevitable.

Same applies to the Heb 3 passage. Notice he says, "we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast." Heb 3:6 He doesn't say "we will be his house, if ..." He uses the present tense. Once again he can only use the present tense here if the outcome, the "if statement", is an indicator of our present state rather than something that causes us to be his house. It's consistent with the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. It's inevitable that those are presently in his house will endure to the end in their faith. This as opposed to the idea that enduring to the end in the faith is a condition for salvation.

Don't confuse the condition for salvation with the condition of the saved. Many Christians don't have genuine faith in Christ, and so don't enter his rest because of unbelief.

"If we shrink back" implies that it is possible to shrink back. All of Israel tasted the goodness of God 's word, and the power of the age to come, yet they shrank back, when asked to fight their fears, unlike Joshua, unlike Abraham .

When the writer says "we are not like those who shrank back" he is writing in encouragement.

Why ? Because we can study case history, precedents:

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

and other parallels...

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
We aren’t there till we DIE, physically, and God is working on our soul until death.

1 Corinthians 15 makes this clear.

Paul even uses a fairly abrasive way of emphasizing this.

Sanctification is about Growing in Love.

You misunderstand. I'm not asking what happens during the process. I'm asking where in scripture is the process called "sanctification"?

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
You misunderstand. I'm not asking what happens during the process. I'm asking where in scripture is the process called "sanctification"?

Strong's Hebrew: 6942. קָדַשׁ (qadash) -- to be set apart or consecrated

Strong's Greek: 37. ἁγιάζω (hagiazó) -- to make holy, consecrate, sanctify

c. to purify internally by reformation of soul: John 17:17, 19 (through knowledge of the truth, cf. John 8:32); 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 1 Corinthians 1:2 (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in the fellowship of Christ, the Holy One); Romans 15:16 (ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ imbued with the Holy Spirit, the divine source of holiness); Jude 1:1(L T Tr WH ἠγαπημένοις (which see)); Revelation 22:11. In general, Christians are called ἡγιασμένοι (cf. Deuteronomy 33:3), as those who, freed from the impurity of wickedness, have been brought near to God by their faith and sanctity, Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18. In 1 Corinthians 7:14 ἁγιάζεσθαι is used in a peculiar sense of those who, although not Christians themselves, are yet, by marriage with a Christian, withdrawn from the contamination of heathen impiety and brought under the saving influence of the Holy Spirit displaying itself among Christians; cf. Neander at the passage.

2 Corinthians 4:7-9

Isaiah 64:8

Wordkeeper · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
You misunderstand. I'm not asking what happens during the process. I'm asking where in scripture is the process called "sanctification"?

Here:

Genesis 22
12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me".

Here:

Numbers 14
20So the LORD said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

BTW, Caleb means dog. Caleb was a Gentile, like the syro-phoenician woman. Since the Gentiles were given the Kingdom, Joshua is not mentioned in THIS passage.

Also, BTW, it is God who justifies sanctifyingly:

James 2:22
You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

Matthew 19:21

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Strong's Hebrew: 6942. קָדַשׁ (qadash) -- to be set apart or consecrated

Strong's Greek: 37. ἁγιάζω (hagiazó) -- to make holy, consecrate, sanctify

c. to purify internally by reformation of soul: John 17:17, 19 (through knowledge of the truth, cf. John 8:32); 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 1 Corinthians 1:2 (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in the fellowship of Christ, the Holy One); Romans 15:16 (ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ imbued with the Holy Spirit, the divine source of holiness); Jude 1:1(L T Tr WH ἠγαπημένοις (which see)); Revelation 22:11. In general, Christians are called ἡγιασμένοι (cf. Deuteronomy 33:3), as those who, freed from the impurity of wickedness, have been brought near to God by their faith and sanctity, Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18. In 1 Corinthians 7:14 ἁγιάζεσθαι is used in a peculiar sense of those who, although not Christians themselves, are yet, by marriage with a Christian, withdrawn from the contamination of heathen impiety and brought under the saving influence of the Holy Spirit displaying itself among Christians; cf. Neander at the passage.

Thanks, Grip

I printed this out because non of the scripture references come up when I mouse over them. I'll look them up in bed tonight.

By the way, what site did you copy this from. All I use is Biblegateway to look up passages. But I don't have a Strong's. What I want is a source that has the Strong's codes over words in a passage. Do you know of any?

CharismaticLady · Jun 24, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Here:

Genesis 22

12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me".

Here:

Numbers 14

20So the LORD said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

BTW, Caleb means dog. Caleb was a Gentile, like the syro-phoenician woman. Since the Gentiles were given the Kingdom, Joshua is not mentioned in THIS passage.

Also, BTW, it is God who justifies sanctifyingly:

James 2:22

You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

Matthew 19:21

New American Standard Bible

Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

King James Bible

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

LOL You also did not understand me. None of those verses even uses the word "sanctification"

Grip Docility · Jun 24, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Thanks, Grip

I printed this out because non of the scripture references come up when I mouse over them. I'll look them up in bed tonight.

By the way, what site did you copy this from. All I use is Biblegateway to look up passages. But I don't have a Strong's. What I want is a source that has the Strong's codes over words in a passage. Do you know of any?

Biblehub... but I love bible gateway, too!!! <3.

Usually a word search in google followed by the word concordance will yield more than I can read in a week.

The site links are there, too.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sister, in Him,

Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

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