Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

  • No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Total voters
    30

CharismaticLady

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Actually if you read it more carefully it says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Again "because he has been born of God." is the explanation as to why such a person does not continue to sin.

I agree. No one is saved who is not born again of the Spirit. But we still have our free will, and even though it would now be against our new nature, it is still possible to willfully sin; otherwise Paul would not have written Hebrews 10:26-39. Note there the person has been sanctified. They have received the Holy Spirit. No one without the Spirit belongs to Christ. Romans 8:9
 
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CharismaticLady

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Romans 4:5 is impossible to twist!!!!

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Sorry, I've got 4 Kings and an Ace!
 
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bcbsr

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I agree. No one is saved who is not born again of the Spirit. But we still have our free will, and even though it would now be against our new nature, it is still possible to willfully sin; otherwise Paul would not have written Hebrews 10:26-39. Note there the person has been sanctified. They have received the Holy Spirit. No one without the Spirit belongs to Christ. Romans 8:9
And it also says, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Heb 10:39 How does that fit into you soteriology? How could he predict whether people will shrink back or not? How could he predict that future event? It's because it's inevitable for true believers because of the principles of the regenerate nature. Those who are set apart as members of the visible church are not necessarily saved. Only those among them who have genuine faith in Christ are saved. Note that he speaks of those who fall away as merely having information. They received the knowledge of the truth. Doesn't mean they have Christ in them. Of apostates it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 How could John say, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"? The same reason for Heb 10:39. Namely that its inevitable given the regenerate nature. True believers never fall away.
 
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Wordkeeper

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And it also says, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Heb 10:39 How does that fit into you soteriology? How could he predict whether people will shrink back or not? How could he predict that future event? It's because it's inevitable for true believers because of the principles of the regenerate nature. Those who are set apart as members of the visible church are not necessarily saved. Only those among them who have genuine faith in Christ are saved. Note that he speaks of those who fall away as merely having information. They received the knowledge of the truth. Doesn't mean they have Christ in them. Of apostates it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 How could John say, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"? The same reason for Heb 10:39. Namely that its inevitable given the regenerate nature. True believers never fall away.
Shrunk back from what?? The problem is posited as a house that needs to be built, an army that must be faced. When faced with this situation, you can't count your cost and give up.

You have to count your cost, and ask for an extension of the deadline, terms of peace.

Hebrews 3
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

8do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,

during the time of testing in the wilderness,

9where your ancestors tested and tried me,

though for forty years they saw what I did.

10That is why I was angry with that generation;

I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,

and they have not known my ways.’

11So I declared on oath in my anger,

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion.” c

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
 
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Grip Docility

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Shrunk back from what?? The problem is posited as a house that needs to be built, an army that must be faced. When faced with this situation, you can't count your cost and give up.

You have to count your cost, and ask for an extension of the deadline, terms of peace.

Hebrews 3
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

8do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,

during the time of testing in the wilderness,

9where your ancestors tested and tried me,

though for forty years they saw what I did.

10That is why I was angry with that generation;

I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,

and they have not known my ways.’

11So I declared on oath in my anger,

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion.” c

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

John 16:9 ; John 5:39-40
 
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Wordkeeper

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John 16:9 ; John 5:39-40
My choice of interpretation :

The people shrank back because they knew that they would have to eventually cut all links to mammon, put all their property at the feet of Peter:

Acts 5
13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

Once you leave Egypt and are following God, you have to be ready for the call.

These are the options:

Hear God's voice: choose who you will serve.

1. Some chose God.

2. Some chose to return to Egypt. They stayed in the church, but God sent leanness in their lives. Dead men walking.

3. Some chose to ask for extensions of the deadline. They had to swallow their pride, as they wilted away like a flower in the sun, or as James put it, the rich man took pride in his humiliation, as his worldly resources slowly ran out.

4. Some chose to pretend they heard the call, and had cut all links to mammon, but kept a secret stash. This was so wrong, as it was a contamination of the House of God.
 
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Phil W

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He either did, or Scripture lied.
Which scripture says that he endured till the end?

We fail, God doesn’t! Isn’t it time you allowed that mustard seed to become the massive tree God wills it to be?
If we are born of God, we won't fail either.
New creatures don't fail.
Those with the seed of God in them don't fail.
A true repentance precludes failure.
By "fail", I "mean commit sin".
 
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Phil W

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If you? You have that much confidence in your Carnal endurance?
What do you mean by "carnal endurance"?

I don’t say I’m saved based on me. I know I’m Saved because of WHO He Is!
Where’s your mustard seed, brother? Isn’t it time your faith grew so tall, it offers relief to others?
If it was all God's doings, you would be right.
But we have our part to play.

How many will use your line of thought to justify getting the mark of the beast?
I mean, if "I am saved...permanently", so a mark doesn't mean anything!
We have choices to make everyday that will be used to determine our salvation.
 
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Phil W

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Actually if you read it more carefully it says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Again "because he has been born of God." is the explanation as to why such a person does not continue to sin.
Correct.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
 
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CharismaticLady

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And it also says, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Heb 10:39 How does that fit into you soteriology? How could he predict whether people will shrink back or not? How could he predict that future event? It's because it's inevitable for true believers because of the principles of the regenerate nature. Those who are set apart as members of the visible church are not necessarily saved. Only those among them who have genuine faith in Christ are saved. Note that he speaks of those who fall away as merely having information. They received the knowledge of the truth. Doesn't mean they have Christ in them. Of apostates it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 How could John say, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"? The same reason for Heb 10:39. Namely that its inevitable given the regenerate nature. True believers never fall away.

How can an unregenerate be sanctified?
 
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Grip Docility

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What do you mean by "carnal endurance"?


If it was all God's doings, you would be right.
But we have our part to play.

How many will use your line of thought to justify getting the mark of the beast?
I mean, if "I am saved...permanently", so a mark doesn't mean anything!
We have choices to make everyday that will be used to determine our salvation.

Personally, I don’t think anyone that exalts Christ... Genuinely would “Take that Mark”.

Choices? I chose to live and die for Belief in Jesus Christ’s Work... and trust His Holy Spirit... to finish the work He started within me, when I asked Jesus into my heart and placed His Will over mine, despite my Carnal frailty.
 
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Grip Docility

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Correct.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

Oh, but the Fig Tree did bear the root of the grape vine. :)

Jesus can take Stone Jars filled with water and turn it to... wait for it... Delicious Wine.
 
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Grip Docility

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How can an unregenerate be sanctified?

The word “unregenerate” theologically binds to Romans 1 use of the word Reprobate... have the people that anchor to this idea ventured into Romans 2:1-2?
 
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Grip Docility

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Which scripture says that he endured till the end?


If we are born of God, we won't fail either.
New creatures don't fail.
Those with the seed of God in them don't fail.
A true repentance precludes failure.
By "fail", I "mean commit sin".

The one where Paul declared them “Saved” if x... and they did x.

And... This idea of perfect Carnal Obedience Being insinuated is the root of the issue, is it not?
 
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CharismaticLady

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The word “unregenerate” theologically binds to Romans 1 use of the word Reprobate... have the people that anchor to this idea ventured into Romans 2:1-2?

I'm using "unregenerate" as in not born again of the Spirit. They are not sanctified.
 
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Phil W

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Let's study the process of salvation.
God sends people into crisis so that they can see their situation. God sent Joseph and Israel into Egypt by creating (!) a famine so that her situation of serving mammon is shown it its extreme manifestation: she is working for treasure that rusts and perishes.
Who is "her/she"?

Israel cries out for deliverance, a change.
God sends Moses who tells Israel to come out of Egypt. To convince her that God can change things for the better, Moses uses the signs and wonders he had been given.
Israel leaves Egypt and follows God. God can feed Israel but He intentionally causes a food and water shortage. When they are alarmed, God provides these necessities, using signs and wonders. This is so they will stop working for treasure that rusts and serve Him for treasure that never perishes, by becoming a blessing to the world. Be born again. This is what Israel has been created for.

From this we see that baptism, the agreement to leave mammon, leads to God demolishing all the things that holds a believer captive to the world. Any reasonable person would have been convinced, and repented in ashes for doubting God, if they had seen the miracles that had been performed in her, but Israel was scared about resigning from her job in Egypt, and becoming totally dependent on God. Out of a million Jews over 20, only Joshua broke away cleanly, and decided to depend only on God, just like the lilies of the field depend only on God, and are dressed even better than Solomon. He really was born again, had a new mindset.

Although they drank and ate from the same spiritual source, Christ the Rock, what they saw did not benefit them, and God was not pleased with them and their bones littered the wilderness of Sinai.

These are similar to the patterns seen in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Peter with positive results and Korah, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira, etc with negative outcomes.

Let’s examine the case of the thief on the cross.

He knew about Jesus: that he was innocent, that he would come into His kingdom, that He would reward those loyal to Him. Apparently he would have learnt this before he was crucified: back in the prison, or further back when he was an active thief. Whether he became a follower or wanted to become a follower, he was arrested, and it didn’t make a difference to the authorities.

Did he leave Egypt? Egypt is selfish living. He did not join in the mocking of the others who were pandering to the relief they got by cursing everybody they could see, who got selfish pleasure from rebuking.

Did he switch to serving God for treasure that lasts? He spoke good things about Jesus, which is what the criteria was for those who were for God.

Mark 9
38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” 39But Jesus replied, “Do not stop him. No onewho performs a miracle in My name can turn around and speak evil of Me. 40For whoever is not against us is for us.

It seems that the thief had saving faith, but the New Covenant is a superior covenant.

What did the thief lack? Was it justifying faith or sanctifying faith or glorifying faith?
The thief lacked nothing.
He met the requirements for salvation, was paid the "wages of sin"-death, was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and Jesus promised that he would be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life....just like our baptism into Christ and into His death. {Rom 6:3-6)
If the thief held on to his faith unto death, all of Jesus' promises would be granted.
 
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Grip Docility

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I'm using "unregenerate" as in not born again of the Spirit. They are sanctified.

The root of this type of argument lies in the conflation of Sanctification and Justification.

We are saved and sealed (Justified) the instant we abide in HIM.

Sanctification is a process that goes forward till death and has no salvational bearing ... as God doesn’t lose what is placed in His hands by those that fall on their knees in repentance, in response to 1 John 2:2
 
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Phil W

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The one where Paul declared them “Saved” if x... and they did x.
Doing x doesn't mean y and z will be done.
Didn't Paul say a bunch more while the jailer dressed his wounds?
Don't you think the jailer asked "What lord"?

And... This idea of perfect Carnal Obedience Being insinuated is the root of the issue, is it not?
That is the message of the NT.
Freedom from the oppressor. (John 8:34)
 
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