bcbsr

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We have already been over this. You stretch the text of the Bible to say that there is this imaginary "works is always a condition of the saved" kind of belief when it does not hold water in Scripture.

We need to endure to the end as a part of salvation:
And of course I've responded to those verses in the past showing that you misinterpreted them typically by:

1. Misconstruing verses talking about the condition of the saved as if they are talking about the conditions to be saved.

2. Appending all commands with "in order to be saved"

3. Confusing passages talking about nominal Christians as if they are referring to those who have been saved by genuine faith.

4. Confusing passages talking about the Old Covenant (justification by law) with passages referring to New Covenant (justification by faith apart from law)
 
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bcbsr

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As for your mention of Romans 4:

Read Romans 4:9-12. Paul is referring to the order of circumcision with Abraham. Belief came first in the Old Covenant and then came circumcision. But in the New Covenant, circumcision is not even a requirement. Circumcision is not a command given to us by Jesus and his followers.

A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians that they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved instead of placing faith in Jesus Christ (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
Got that wrong. Abraham precede the Old Covenant, as Paul also said, "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Gal 3:16-18

This would be yet another example of you misreading scripture, in this case misconstruing the Abrahamic covenant, which was not by law, but by promise, as if it were talking about the Mosaic covenant, which did't come till 430 years later.

The New Covenant is likened to the Abrahamic covenant, which is not by compliance to a "law", as you advocate, but rather by belief in a promise.
 
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Got that wrong. Abraham precede the Old Covenant, as Paul also said, "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Gal 3:16-18

This would be yet another example of you misreading scripture, in this case misconstruing the Abrahamic covenant, which was not by law, but by promise, as if it were talking about the Mosaic covenant, which did't come till 430 years later.

The New Covenant is likened to the Abrahamic covenant, which is not by compliance to a "law", as you advocate, but rather by belief in a promise.

Not at all. I never said that Abraham obeyed the Law of Moses. But Abraham was justified by works according to James chapter 2. For James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
 
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bcbsr

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Not at all. I never said that Abraham obeyed the Law of Moses. But Abraham was justified by works according to James chapter 2. For James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
Let's see what Paul says
Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Notice that he didn't bring up the fact that the law of Moses didn't exist at the time. Rather he's contrasting the idea of justification by works, such as you preach, versus justification by believing God's promise.

"If the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Gal 3:17-18 It's about believing a promise versus complying to a law, such as you preach.
 
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In other words, Belief Alone-ism is the ever popular view.
What planet do you live on? The calvin, the armin, the baptist, the catholic,the methodist, the coc ........you name the denom........they push works for salvation. Most just hide it behind a wall of words and 'nice' phrases.

And a side note.....Very typical for workers for salvation to use The Lord Jesus Christ's narrow way(Believe on Him) as a derogatory term. Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

You are hard pressed to find the BIBLICAL view...........Believe and be saved. PERIOD.

But Jesus said narrow is the way, and few (not many) will be there that find it.
Right. because it is trust ALONE in CHRIST ALONE. It is very narrow. And 99.9% here and in this world won't accept this very NARROW way.........When they are working every which way to save themselves.
 
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What planet do you live on? The calvin, the armin, the baptist, the catholic,the methodist, the coc ........you name the denom........they push works for salvation. Most just hide it behind a wall of words and 'nice' phrases.

And a side note.....Very typical for workers for salvation to use The Lord Jesus Christ's narrow way(Believe on Him) as a derogatory term. Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

You are hard pressed to find the BIBLICAL view...........Believe and be saved. PERIOD.


Right. because it is trust ALONE in CHRIST ALONE. It is very narrow. And 99.9% here and in this world won't accept this very NARROW way.........When they are working every which way to save themselves.

Sorry, I disagree with you. My experience shows that most churches today believe in Belief Alone-ism. You may say that they may hide that they believe in works salvation but they really believe in Belief Alone-ism because many of them teach that a person can commit suicide and be saved, etc. Many of them say that they sin every day and they are saved by having a belief on Jesus. Yet, they sometimes will contradict themselves and say they don't live in a sinful lifestyle.

So do you believe like George Sodini? He wrote in his suicide letter that he would be saved despite his horrible acts of murder, and in the taking of his own life.

Check out this article here:
George Sodini.
 
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Let's see what Paul says
Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Notice that he didn't bring up the fact that the law of Moses didn't exist at the time. Rather he's contrasting the idea of justification by works, such as you preach, versus justification by believing God's promise.

"If the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Gal 3:17-18 It's about believing a promise versus complying to a law, such as you preach.

Sorry, friend. I already explained Romans 4, and Galatians 3 with your before. If you did not get it the first time I explained it, then there is no use to try and repeat such a thing again.

Side Note:

I will try to go back and explain the many verses in your other post (because you challenged me and you made it sound like I was not going to address your many verses in your post, when I am perfectly capable of doing so). I simply did not reply to them all because I am limited on time.

In any event, may God's goodness be upon you.
 
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Rom 10:1-13

Not sure how this passage helps you to refute the idea of Sanctification as being necessary for salvation (after we are saved by God's grace through faith). Romans 10:1-13 is addressed to Israel who did not accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah. So the whole point here is Justification and not Sanctification.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1).
 
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Eph 2:8,9;

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about how we are initially and or ultimately saved.
Ephesians 2:1 says we are quickened. This is a one time event. Initial Salvation.
Ephesians 2:8 says for by grace are you saved by faith, it is the gift of God.
Gifts are generally received one time, and the same gifts are not received over and over and over again. So again. Initial Salvation is the context here.
Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Unless you believe Christ keeps re-dwelling our hearts over and over and over again. This is referring to Initial Salvation. So yes. We are saved by God's grace through faith without works when we first come to the Lord.

Also, Ephesians 2:9 is referring to man directed works because these are the kind of works that a person would boast in. Meaning, they would boast in themselves for the work that they do. Meaning, it is a man directed work.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and refers to an entirely different kind of work. The work of Sanctification via God doing the good work through us (after we are saved by God's grace).

So Ephesians 2:8-9 is not teaching against the necessity of Sanctification as being necessary as a part of the salvation process. It is merely focusing on how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ via the Justification Process. Paul is talking primarily here about Justification and not Sanctification.

In another place, Paul makes it clear that we need both a belief in the truth, and Sanctification by the Spirit as a part of salvation (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). In Romans 8:13, Paul makes it clear that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die, and if we put to death the deeds of the body (sin) via the Spirit, we will live (i.e. eternal life).
 
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Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved: 1John 2:19;

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19).

The "they were not of us" (in 1 John 2:19) is referring to the gnostic believers who were trying to seduce the brethren that John was writing to.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26).

John is not saying that if they were of us, that there would be no way for them to ever fall away. John is merely expressing that if they were of the brethren (us), they would have most likely continued with them like the other brethren did. John is not making an exhaustive statement of the entire life of the believer. He is merely saying that if they believed the truth, they would have continued with them at this point so far. John is not thinking in terms of speaking exhaustively here so as to address the topic of falling away. In fact, we know that in James 5:19-20, that a believer can fall away into spiritual death, and be renewed back. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, this same truth is also expressed. For when the son came home home, his father said he was "dead" and he is "alive again." This is speaking in spiritual terms (See: Luke 15:11-32). So we have to reconcile these parts of Scripture with what John is saying. If not, then we would have a contradiction in the Bible, and that is not possible.
 
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Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved:
Rom 8:1,2;
1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1-2).

If you read a Modern Translation, then there is a chance that the words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." are removed. So yes. Without these words, they would appear to be in favor of Eternal Security at first glance. But we know that to have an assurance one is abiding in Christ, they have to keep His commandments (1 John 2:3). Plus, Romans 8:13 says a similar thing as Romans 8:1.

As for Romans 8:2: Well, the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" mentioned in Romans 8:2 is defined for us in Romans 8:1. There is no Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you mortify (or put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally) (Romans 8:13). So no. Romans 8:1-2 is not teaching Eternal Security.
 
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"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19).
John is not saying that if they were of us, that there would be no way for them to ever fall away. .
Actually he is saying that. You just overlooked the phrase "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"
 
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1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1-2).

If you read a Modern Translation, then there is a chance that the words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." are removed. So yes. Without these words, they would appear to be in favor of Eternal Security at first glance. But we know that to have an assurance one is abiding in Christ, they have to keep His commandments (1 John 2:3). Plus, Romans 8:13 says a similar thing as Romans 8:1.

As for Romans 8:2: Well, the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" mentioned in Romans 8:2 is defined for us in Romans 8:1. There is no Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you mortify (or put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally) (Romans 8:13). So no. Romans 8:1-2 is not teaching Eternal Security.
Prior to that it says, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." Rom 8:9,10 Walking in the Spirit is simply descriptive of those who are in Christ. And we are commanded to "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:11 What you're saying is that we should disobey that command and reckon ourselves to be live to sin and dead to Christ.

"Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns?" Rom 8:33,34 Apparently, you.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Rom 8:35 If eternal security is the case, then time cannot separate us from the love of Christ. Does it say that? Indeed it does. "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39 Apparently you're not convinced of that fact. You don't believe it. And note also "anything else in all creation" includes the person themselves, since they are a part of creation, or do you think you're not created?
 
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Some among the many verses indicating once saved, always saved:
Rom 8:38,39;

38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39).

One thing you will not see in the list of things that can separate you from the love of God in Romans 8:38-39 is:

#1. You (and),
#2. Your sin.

In other words, all the things present on the list in Romans 8:38-39 are EXTERNAL things. So this passage is not teaching Eternal Security, but it is teaching that you alone will be responsible for your own sin.

James 1:14 says,
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
 
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Prior to that it says, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." Rom 8:9,10 Walking in the Spirit is simply descriptive of those who are in Christ. And we are commanded to "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:11 What you're saying is that we should disobey that command and reckon ourselves to be live to sin and dead to Christ.

Again, you have to keep reading. It says,

12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).

Paul is talking to the brethren and he says that they are not debtors to live after the flesh (i.e. sin). He says in verse 13 that if they (the brethren he is writing to) live after the flesh, they will die, but if they put to death deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, they will live.

You said:
"Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns?" Rom 8:33,34 Apparently, you.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you the same to them (by forgiving them) (Colossians 3:12-13).
 
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bcbsr

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One thing you will not see in the list of things that can separate you from the love of God in Romans 8:38-39 is:

#1. You (and),
#2. Your sin.
As I pointed out, as once again you apparently overlooked, it says, "nor anything else in all creation". Are you a part of creation? Or do you think you're God? I don't know about you, but I think I'm a part of creation. And being a part of creation there's nothing I can do to separate myself from the love of God. But of course you don't believe what Paul said.
In other words, all the things present on the list in Romans 8:38-39 are EXTERNAL things.
Once again you overlooked what it said, despite the fact I had pointed it out. Though I've long given up trying to convince you. But your responses provided an opportunity for viewers to see how Salvation-by-Works Christians misconstrue scripture. As I pointed out, it says, "nor the future". So if you travel to the future, that person's salvation status would not have changed. Believe it, or be an unbeliever.
 
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Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you the same to them (by forgiving them) (Colossians 3:12-13).
Absent from that passage is the phrase "in order to be saved" which you imply is suppose to append the statement.

Lesson: Salvation-by-Works Christians will typically append the idea of the phrase "in order to be saved" to all commands in the New Testament. Which I've also covered in my thread. Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
 
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As I pointed out, as once again you apparently overlooked, it says, "nor anything else in all creation". Are you a part of creation? Or do you think you're God? I don't know about you, but I think I'm a part of creation. And being a part of creation there's nothing I can do to separate myself from the love of God. But of course you don't believe what Paul said.

Again, you have to add to the Bible to make it say that. The context are external things in that list, and the Bible teaches that a person can fall away from the faith and die spiritually and come back to the faith become alive again spiritually (See: James 5:19-20, and Luke 15:11-32).

You said:
Once again you overlooked what it said, despite the fact I had pointed it out. Though I've long given up trying to convince you. But your responses provided an opportunity for viewers to see how Salvation-by-Works Christians misconstrue scripture.

I can say the same, but the proof is in the pudding when it comes to other readers examining the Scriptures for themselves. I believe they will side with what I have said with Scripture if they are not looking to justify sin in some small way (Which is what I believe Mid Range OSAS teaches). For I have gotten the impression that you believe that a saint does not lose their salvation when they sin on occasion. I also gotten the impression that you believe that a believer will always sin on occasion (not as a lifestyle) until they die. So this is justifying a little bit of sin as being okay with God. At least, that is the impression I get by what you have stated so far (unless you want to correct that line of thinking and explain it to me). Maybe you believe in OSAS Lite where a believer cannot justify even one sin with the thinking they are saved. But I do not get the impression you believe that. Not many today believe in OSAS Lite. They believe if you are not living holy, you are not saved.

You said:
As I pointed out, it says, "nor the future". So if you travel to the future, that person's salvation status would not have changed. Believe it, or be an unbeliever.

This is talking about external things to come in our lives that cannot separate us from the love of God. Just because it mentions the future does not change the things mentioned on that list that are external (Which is the context). Then again, you are free to add to the Bible if you like to make it say what you like (of course). But the words "you" and "your sin" is not in that list no matter how hard pressed you would be to place them there.
 
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Absent from that passage is the phrase "in order to be saved" which you imply is suppose to append the statement.

Lesson: Salvation-by-Works Christians will typically append the idea of the phrase "in order to be saved" to all commands in the New Testament. Which I've also covered in my thread. Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Thank you for the link to this thread. I forgot about it. When I am done responding to your supposed proof texts in your old post that you thought I would never reply to, I will try to create another thread to address the verses that you mention in the OP of that thread (So as to show those Christians who truly do not want to justify sin on some level the truth).
 
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I believe the equation for salvation is that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith without a system of works alone. But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe "works of faith" is the next step or stage in the salvation process. This is not "Works Alone Salvationism" that Paul was fighting against, but it is merely one's faith being shown as being genuine in the fact that they abide in Christ.

Jason,

I think the problem with the above is your lack of distinction when you say "salvation."

In Reformation Theology (my tradition) there is a distinction. Our changed relationship is typically referred to as "Justification" and the teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE as one undivided, inseparable teaching. Grace Alone - Christ Alone - Faith Alone. An important Christian put it this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." ALL this is God's work. ALL this is "the free gift of God" as Paul declares. It's all because of God's mercy, grace, unconditional love.... Jesus IS THE Savior (not just a savior, not just a helper, not just the possibility maker, not just the model/teacher).... and the divine gift of faith (reliance) embraces this and makes the benefits of it our own. It's GOD'S work. Monergism not synergism.

Once given spiritual life and justifying faith... once made His own.... we are to grow and mature. This is not optional BUT it's not self saving self (making Jesus ultimately not the Savior but just a door opener), it is the NEW self being new. It's important to stress the mandate.... but not to mix it with justification.

An illustration: Perhaps 9 months before my birth, God GAVE me physical life. I didn't earn it, deserve it, request it or create it - in whole or in part. It was a FREE GIFT OF GOD, who is "the Lord and Giver of life" (as we confess in the creed). But once born, almost immediately, God and my parents and society called me to grow, to mature, to be responsible, to serve, to be a moral person. Being a good man is NOT what gave me life (or even preserves it) but the life given to me empowers what I'm now called to do. The call for me to be all God desires is not to be ignored or watered down, but nor is it to be confused with the free gift of life. Self is not the Lord and Giver of Life. God is. In the same way, spiritual life was GIVEN to me (I believe within one minute of my physical birth, when I was baptized but that's a different issue). It means I have faith... I am justified.... I am a child of God.... I am heaven bound... as the free gift of God.... Jesus did it.... the Holy Spirit made it my own.... I have recieved faith, life, the Holy Spirit. NOW, I am to become ever more Christ-life. NOW I am to increasingly to love and serve. Two interrelated but separate issues.


I hope that contributes something...


- Josiah
 
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