Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 22, 2019

bcbsr said:
Rom 4:1-8;

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

Side Note:

Also, Paul mentions in Romans 4:9-12 about the order of belief and circumcision involving Abraham. Paul's point here was to fight against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is the context you are ignoring). You want Paul's words to be about "ALL Law" (Including the commands of Jesus, and His followers), but Paul is actually fighting against the idea of men who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved (See Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

A_Thinker · Jun 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
John 3:16 has to be read in context to the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21.

All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). So it is more than just a belief alone. Jesus also stresses here that actions play a part, too. In this case, Jesus is saying that one's bad actions means they hate the light of God.

These verses speak of motivation to COME to the LIGHT. In point of fact, ... it says that the truly evil DO NOT come to the LIGHT, while those that are motivated by truth DO come to the LIGHT.

John 3

18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The implication is that there is a clear separation between these two groups of people, ... and not the hazy back-and-forth you propose with your system of post salvation legalism.

I propose that you are thinking too rigidly ... as if God is is more concerned with abiding by any set of rules (even His) ... rather than gifting humanity with His salvation.

I wonder if you have contemplated what it really means ... that God was willing to allow Himself to be put to death ... to save sinners.

God has adopted believing humanity in His own family, of whom He is the Good Father, ... and claims to be a better Father than any earthly fathers, ... though He acknowledges that they (earthly fathers) ... love their children.

Think of how often earthly fathers disinherit their children ... for reasons of the children's disobedience. The truth is that's not what we typically see. Rather, we see fathers striving to raise up their children to righteousness ... through use of chastening, chastisement, and rewards and punishments/loss.

God makes the claim that He uses these same methodologies ... in the raising of His children. OTOH, He promises that He will never "cast out" anyone who has come to Him.

I believe that you may be missing the forest for the trees.

God ... before the creation of the worlds ... prepared a plan of redemption ... for His Creation which He knew would fall into sin ... even though this plan necessitated the death of His own Son.

And having sent His Son into the world to His ultimate physical death, by which He draws men, women, and children to Him, ... He adopts us into His family, freeing us from the power of sin, ... and then TEACHING US HOW to be GOOD CHILDREN in His family (i.e. conformed to the image of His Son).

We who are His ... are, even now, being conformed to the image of Christ ...

Romans 8

28 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2019

A_Thinker said:
These verses speak of motivation to COME to the LIGHT. In point of fact, ... it says that the truly evil DO NOT come to the LIGHT, while those that are motivated by truth DO come to the LIGHT.

John 3

18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The implication is that there is a clear separation between these two groups of people, ... and not the hazy back-and-forth you propose with your system of post salvation legalism.

I propose that you are thinking too rigidly ... as if God is is more concerned with abiding by any set of rules (even His) ... rather than gifting humanity with His salvation.

I wonder if you have contemplated what it really means ... that God was willing to allow Himself to be put to death ... to save sinners.

God has adopted believing humanity in His own family, of whom He is the Good Father, ... and claims to be a better Father than any earthly fathers, ... though He acknowledges that they (earthly fathers) ... love their children.

Think of how often earthly fathers disinherit their children ... for reasons of the children's disobedience. The truth is that's not what we typically see. Rather, we see fathers striving to raise up their children to righteousness ... through use of chastening, chastisement, and rewards and punishments/loss.

God makes the claim that He uses these same methodologies ... in the raising of His children. OTOH, He promises that He will never "cast out" anyone who has come to Him.

I believe that you may be missing the forest for the trees.

God ... before the creation of the worlds ... prepared a plan of redemption ... for His Creation which He knew would fall into sin ... even though this plan necessitated the death of His own Son.

And having sent His Son into the world to His ultimate physical death, by which He draws men, women, and children to Him, ... He adopts us into His family, freeing us from the power of sin, ... and then TEACHING US HOW to be GOOD CHILDREN in His family (i.e. conformed to the image of His Son).

We who are His ... are, even now, being conformed to the image of Christ ...

Romans 8

28 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

No. The KJV (that has been around for hundreds of years before the Modern Translations) says, "... every one that doeth evil hateth the light," (John 3:20).

This truth is expressed in other parts of the Bible.

1 John 3:8 says,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:8).

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

Living after the flesh or sin (Which can include justifying sin) brings death.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Notice the word "IF" in Romans 8:13. IF, IF, IF..... IF YE (IF YOU) live after the flesh ye (you) will die." Paul is talking to the brethren in his letter here.

The man who endures temptation (When he is tried) will receive the crown of life (Which the Lord has promised to those who love him).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

Yet, I hear Belief Alone Proponents make excuses that they do not always endure temptation.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

1 John 3:10 says, this:

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother"

This is how we determine who is of God, and who is not of God.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Gal 3;11,12;

Galatians 3:

10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:10-14).

The context here is being justified by faith (that include God's grace) vs. being justified by Law alone (without God's grace). The context is involving the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that said that a person had to first be saved by being circumcised instead of being first justified by faith that is in Christ. For if a person seeks to be circumcised to be saved, they are making "Law Alone" the source of their salvation (Which be against having faith in Jesus Christ). We are redeemed from the curse of the Old Law. The curse of the Old Law was that it brought death if you disobeyed it. Circumcision was a part of this Old Law (that is no more). In the Old Covenant (when it was in effect at one time): Circumcision was not to be done by a believer before they placed their faith in the Lord for salvation (See Romans 4:9-12). Such a thing did not even operate in such a way like that before the cross. Salvation was always by faith with works of obedience following (See Hebrews 11).

Here are the verses that show that Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism (Which is the context of his speaking against being justified by Law Alone):

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism is more clearly described to us at the Jerusalem Counsel:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I just read and believe the Bible for what it says. Luke 10:28-30 clearly teaches that you have to love God and love your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

Which is speaking of justification by the law, which you preach. In contrast to the New Covenant it says, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

As for your justification by law concept:

"if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:3:21,22

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong.

And of course you skipped Rom 4:5 which says, "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

In your soteriology on trusts in their works to qualify them to be saved. So they work to be saved, which is not trusting God's promise. And as anyone can see from the context Paul is speak generically of works. Granted Salvation-by-Works Christians don't see it that way.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Which is speaking of justification by the law, which you preach. In contrast to the New Covenant it says, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

As for your justification by law concept:

"if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:3:21,22

Again, the context is justification by Law Alone (via Circumcision Salvationism - Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2 - Also see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul was not referring to the necessity of the Sanctification process that comes after one is saved by God's grace. Paul was not referring to loving God and loving your neighbor.

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19) (NASB).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
And of course you skipped Rom 4:5 which says, "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

In your soteriology on trusts in their works to qualify them to be saved. So they work to be saved, which is not trusting God's promise. And as anyone can see from the context Paul is speak generically of works. Granted Salvation-by-Works Christians don't see it that way.

The context is Law Alone Salvationism (via the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism). Circumcision Salvation is teaching that one had to first be circumcised in order to be saved without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"

The Jerusalem Counsel describes this heresy of Circumcision Salvation in more detail:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”................................................................................................................................
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

So the context of Paul was talking about was Circumcision Salvationism. Paul was not referring to obeying Jesus Christ and His followers via the New Covenant as a part of the Sanctification Process (after one is saved by God's grace). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through belief in the truth and Sanctification of the Spirit. Romans 8:13 essentially says if you live one way, you will die, but if you live another way, you will live.

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Galatians 3:

10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:10-14).

The context here is being justified by faith (that include God's grace) vs. being justified by Law alone (without God's grace). The context is involving the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that said that a person had to first be saved by being circumcised instead of being first justified by faith that is in Christ. For if a person seeks to be circumcised to be saved, they are making "Law Alone" the source of their salvation (Which be against having faith in Jesus Christ). We are redeemed from the curse of the Old Law. The curse of the Old Law was that it brought death if you disobeyed it. Circumcision was a part of this Old Law (that is no more). In the Old Covenant (when it was in effect at one time): Circumcision was not to be done by a believer before they placed their faith in the Lord for salvation (See Romans 4:9-12). Such a thing did not even operate in such a way like that before the cross. Salvation was always by faith with works of obedience following (See Hebrews 11).

Your claim is that Jesus simply changed the "law" by which a person is justified. You're claiming that it's just a different law by which eternal life is gained by complying to that law. It's still justification by law. You're soteriology is performance based justification in which one trusts in their performance to save them. Yours is still "The man who does these things will gain eternal life by them." seeing as you make salvation contingent upon works. You're promoting a Neo-Circumcision concept, having the same kind of mentality as the Christian sect of the Circumcision, but just changing the law. Yes, the also had faith in God. Why else would they be so zealous for the law if they didn't believe in God. So also trusted that their faith in God plus their compliance to his commandments would save them, just as you do.

This as opposed to justification by faith apart from law, apart from issues of works,

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Your claim is that Jesus simply changed the "law" by which a person is justified. You're claiming that it's just a different law by which eternal life is gained by complying to that law. It's still justification by law. You're soteriology is performance based justification in which one trusts in their performance to save them. Yours is still "The man who does these things will gain eternal life by them." seeing as you make salvation contingent upon works. You're promoting a Neo-Circumcision concept, having the same kind of mentality as the Christian sect of the Circumcision, but just changing the law. Yes, the also had faith in God. Why else would they be so zealous for the law if they didn't believe in God. So also trusted that their faith in God plus their compliance to his commandments would save them, just as you do.

This as opposed to justification by faith apart from law, apart from issues of works,

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

Right, the Justification Process is apart from works and it is not in "Circumcision Salvationism." (Which is Law Alone-ism without God's grace through faith in Jesus). That is what you are not understanding or getting. You want to remove the context in order to make it say something else.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Your claim is that Jesus simply changed the "law" by which a person is justified. You're claiming that it's just a different law by which eternal life is gained by complying to that law. It's still justification by law. You're soteriology is performance based justification in which one trusts in their performance to save them. Yours is still "The man who does these things will gain eternal life by them." seeing as you make salvation contingent upon works. You're promoting a Neo-Circumcision concept, having the same kind of mentality as the Christian sect of the Circumcision, but just changing the law. Yes, the also had faith in God. Why else would they be so zealous for the law if they didn't believe in God. So also trusted that their faith in God plus their compliance to his commandments would save them, just as you do.

This as opposed to justification by faith apart from law, apart from issues of works,

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

Lets say there is a guy named Stephen, and he desired to be circumcised in order to be initially and ultimately saved instead of placing faith in Jesus Christ for His salvation. Stephen would be justified by works alone and not by faith in Christ as a part of the Justification Process. We are justified freely by God's grace when we come to the Lord for the first time, and if we happen to on very rare occasion stumble into a sin (unintentionally and not with the plan that we are going to sin again occasionally as a matter of fact). Belief in Christ is where salvation starts. But Stephen wanted to make salvation all about circumcision being the basis and foundation of his faith instead of Christ. This was the heresy that Paul was arguing against and why he was spoke in the way that he did. Titus 2:11-12 says that the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Romans 8:13 that talks about our choice to enter the Sanctification process is a part of God's grace. Nowhere does Romans 8:13 say that we can live after the flesh (sin) and not die.

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19) (NASB).

Counts for what? According to you, it counts for gaining salvation by one's performance, which is salvation by works. Whereas Paul is talking about which is relevant with regards to living the Christian life, as a person who has already been saved and is eternally secure, having put his faith in Christ rather than putting faith in his own performance.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Counts for what? According to you, it counts for gaining salvation by one's performance, which is salvation by works. Whereas Paul is talking about which is relevant with regards to living the Christian life, as a person who has already been saved and is eternally secure, having put his faith in Christ rather than putting faith in his own performance.

Not according to me.
The Bible teaches that our actions are a part of entering the joy of our Lord.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

And the Bible teaches that are non-action will lead to outer darkness:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

I mean, do you honestly think the Lord would confuse us by teaching Old Covenant just to have Paul teach something so radically different as you suggest?

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Romans 8:13 essentially says if you live one way, you will die, but if you live another way, you will live.

Rom 8:1,2 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

Those who are in Christ have eternal security. They are free from the issue of sin causing them to go to hell, as their fate had already by finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Rom 8:13 is referring first to those who are not in Christ and so are still under the law of sin and death and then to those who have the Spirit (and as such are in Christ) and consequently walk according to the Spirit as it is written, "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:14 And being children of God we know that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Furthermore we know that those in Christ "did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear" Rom 8:15 whereas Salvation-by-Works Christians operate in fear of condemnation, not having believed the promise, but rather believing the salvation from hell fire is contingent upon their performance. Such people cannot actually exercise love, which goes back to your premise, seeing as "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." 1John 4:18 Their works are done for a self-seeking motivation rather than out of love.

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Lets say there is a guy named Stephen, and he desired to be circumcised in order to be initially and ultimately saved instead of placing faith in Jesus Christ for His salvation. Stephen would be justified by works alone and not by faith in Christ as a part of the Justification Process. We are justified freely by God's grace when we come to the Lord for the first time, and if we happen to on very rare occasion stumble into a sin (unintentionally and not with the plan that we are going to sin again occasionally as a matter of fact). Belief in Christ is where salvation starts. But Stephen wanted to make salvation all about circumcision being the basis and foundation of his faith instead of Christ. This was the heresy that Paul was arguing against and why he was spoke in the way that he did. Titus 2:11-12 says that the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Romans 8:13 that talks about our choice to enter the Sanctification process is a part of God's grace. Nowhere does Romans 8:13 say that we can live after the flesh (sin) and not die.

The idea of parsing between "initially" be saved by faith but "finally" being saved by works, was already discussed on the thread Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?
As I pointed out such an "initial" salvation is not actually salvation at all, seeing as the person alleged "saved" can end up in hell. Or in your scenario you alleging a person is initially placed at the starting gate by faith alone, but then has to earn the right to be finally saved by performing well enough, which is salvation by works. Such a person indeed has faith, but it's not in the promise of God. Rather their faith is in themselves.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
Rom 8:1,2 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

In Romans 8:1: You quoted a Modern Translation that left out the part of the verse that says we are to not walk after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit.

You said:
Those who are in Christ have eternal security. They are free from the issue of sin causing them to go to hell, as their fate had already by finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

There is no such thing as Eternal Security. A honest reading of what happened to Eve in the garden knows that she was duped by the devil to think that she could sin (or break God's command) with the thinking she was saved. John 5:24 is not a one for all statement for the entire life of a believer. It is the first step in being saved. This verse does not talk about how a believer can die spiritually. It is just one piece of Scripture. You have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to learn that truth. James 5:19-20, and the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) teach that you can die spiritually and gain spiritual life again.

You said:
Rom 8:13 is referring first to those who are not in Christ and so are still under the law

No. That is totally made up and false. Paul is directly talking to the believers at the Roman church in Romans 8:13. It's an if and or statement directed to believers and not unbelievers. He says,

"For if ye [you, believers in Rome] live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Paul is not writing to unbelievers. If such were the case, then Paul would say something like "I write this to those who are not in Christ." But Paul never said that.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
The idea of parsing between "initially" be saved by faith but "finally" being saved by works, was already discussed on the thread Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?
As I pointed out such an "initial" salvation is not actually salvation at all, seeing as the person alleged "saved" can end up in hell. Or in your scenario you alleging a person is initially placed at the starting gate by faith alone, but then has to earn the right to be finally saved by performing well enough, which is salvation by works. Such a person indeed has faith, but it's not in the promise of God. Rather their faith is in themselves.

In the OP of that thread, you mention no Scripture and you rant on about the Catholic church (Which is not an organization I believe is even remotely biblical because they add crazy traditions which you mention). The argument here should involve God's Word and not by guilt by association. For example: Just because the Catholic church teaches the Trinity, does not mean that the Trinity is not a true biblical doctrine.

bcbsr · Jun 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Not according to me.
The Bible teaches that our actions are a part of entering the joy of our Lord.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

And the Bible teaches that are non-action will lead to outer darkness:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

I mean, do you honestly think the Lord would confuse us by teaching Old Covenant just to have Paul teach something so radically different as you suggest?

All of which, naturally, you read as affirming your salvation by works soteriology. And once again you confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved. Paul does contrast righteousness by law with righteousness by faith. They are two distinctly different Covenants. But you suggest they are only different in that the "law" was slightly tweaked between them.

Rom 4:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
All of which, naturally, you read as affirming your salvation by works soteriology. And once again you confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved. Paul does contrast righteousness by law with righteousness by faith. They are two distinctly different Covenants. But you suggest they are only different in that the "law" was slightly tweaked between them.

Rom 4:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

We have already been over this. You stretch the text of the Bible to say that there is this imaginary "works is always a condition of the saved" kind of belief when it does not hold water in Scripture.

We need to endure to the end as a part of salvation:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

Furthermore, here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

Bible Highlighter · Jun 24, 2019

bcbsr said:
All of which, naturally, you read as affirming your salvation by works soteriology. And once again you confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved. Paul does contrast righteousness by law with righteousness by faith. They are two distinctly different Covenants. But you suggest they are only different in that the "law" was slightly tweaked between them.

Rom 4:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

As for your mention of Romans 4:

Read Romans 4:9-12. Paul is referring to the order of circumcision with Abraham. Belief came first in the Old Covenant and then came circumcision. But in the New Covenant, circumcision is not even a requirement. Circumcision is not a command given to us by Jesus and his followers.

A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians that they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved instead of placing faith in Jesus Christ (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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