Grace vs Legalism

fhansen

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The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.
Soo... if a believer sins often and seriously, does that matter? Are they still saved or are they not really a believer? They can't lose their justified status according to you, right, but what about fruits? Do they count towards at least helping us distinguish true believers from false ones?
 
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RDKirk

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Not in the OT law for it required flawless law keeping. But keeping Christ's NT law, the gospel, does save. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 those that do not obey the gospel will be in flaming fire, so obedience does save..."obedience UNTO righteousness" saves, Romans 6:16.

So what are you laying down as "Christ's NT law" that you're saying nobody else is following? Spell it out. List the commandments.
 
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Soo... if a believer sins often and seriously, does that matter? Are they still saved or are they not really a believer? They can't lose their justified status according to you, right, but what about fruits? Do they count towards at least helping us distinguish true believers from false ones?

God is in the business of changing hearts.

He chastises, teaches and corrects. It’s not our job to judge, nor convict! It’s our responsibility to LOVE!

 
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fhansen

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God is in the business of changing hearts.

He chastises, teaches and corrects. It’s not our job to judge, nor convict! It’s our responsibility to LOVE!

Can won't disagree with that! Still wondering about the OP on the questions tho.
 
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TheSeabass

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So what are you laying down as "Christ's NT law" that you're saying nobody else is following? Spell it out. List the commandments.
---- if there were no law, then no one would be a sinner. The fact people today sin is proof we are under law.

----we today are under Christ's NT law as Paul said he was, 1 Corinthians 9:21

---a few of Christ's NT laws
do unto others as you would have them do unto you
love your neighbor as yourself
do not lie
do not steal
do not commit adultery
to believe
to repent
to confess
to be baptized
to live faithfully unto death

james 1:25
 
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TheSeabass

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Jesus is THE ALMIGHTY! He OBEYED, Because We can’t obey like HE can Obey!

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so... Little ones to Him belong, they are weak but HE is STRONG... Yes Jesus Loves Me! Yes, Jesus Loves me. Yes, Jesus Loves me! The Bible tells me so!

It’s amazing that many people sing a song as children, but can spend an entire lifetime not understanding its meaning!
We can obey God, not perfectly, but we can obey God, it is our duty to, luke 17:10.

obedience therefore is not legalism as some falsely claim
 
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bcbsr

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Abraham was justified by his obedient works in doing God's will, God's commands, NOT justified by refusing to do God's commands.
Again you bear false witness against your neighbor claiming that they are saying that justification is by disobedience. The point we believers make is that "if, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God.What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."" Likewise it says, "Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead— since he was about a hundred years old— and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom 4:18-22

It was because of faith alone, apart from works that Abraham was justified.
 
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bcbsr

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He is saying obeying commands is legalism. If obeying God's commands is legalism for me, then it would be for Christ. Where those in Acts 2 who obeyed God's command to repent and be baptized legalists? Would God saved them anyway had they refused to repent and be baptized?

Can you give one example from the Bible an example of one who refused to obey God but God saved that person anyway?
No, you misread, yet again. This issue is WHY one obeys commands. In your salvation by works soteriology you claim that it is by obeying a set of commands that one is saved. Whereas the scriptures indicate that salvation under the New Covenant is obtained by faith in Christ alone.
 
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Luke 18:30 "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." This verse shows eternal life is NOT a present possession but is in the world to come. ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-34)

1 John 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." This verse shows eternal life is a promise and a promise is something not yet realized.

In this life, the Christian has the promise of eternal life...as long as he conditionally maintains a continual present tense hearing, believing, following of Christ, John 5:24; John 10:27.
If one quits hearing, believing, following then one loses, forfeits that promise of eternal life.

So you're claiming that you don't believe 1John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." and you don't believe Jesus who said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 Which also tells us how a person obtains eternal life. People who claim that one cannot have eternal life in the present don't believe Jesus and his apostles. And as such they are categorically "unbelievers" by definition. Secondly if a person presently has eternal life, he was also continue to have eternal life after he dies.

These things I write to those who don't believe Jesus Christ that you may know that you don't have eternal life.
 
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Eternal life is based on meeting the conditions. Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth in Luke 10:28-30, that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. You want this to be an Old Covenant teaching, but we know Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant and not Old Covenant because Jesus was making changes to the Law during His Earthly ministry.
As I've told you many times in the past Luke 10:25-28 is talking about justification by the law, which apparently you have put your faith in. This as opposed to the New Covenant in which on is justified by faith in Christ alone.

Gal 3:10-12 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
 
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As I've told you many times in the past Luke 10:25-28 is talking about justification by the law, which apparently you have put your faith in. This as opposed to the New Covenant in which on is justified by faith in Christ alone.

Just because you say it is, does not make it so. There is no evidence in Scripture that Jesus was teaching primarily Old Covenant before the cross (vs. Jesus teaching primarily New Covenant). Again, just because Jesus quoted from the Torah in Luke 10:25-28, does not mean He was teaching Old Covenant.

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

You said:
Gal 3:10-12 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

This is in context to "Circumcision Salvationism." I addressed this point to you just recently in another thread here.
 
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As I've told you many times in the past Luke 10:25-28 is talking about justification by the law, which apparently you have put your faith in. This as opposed to the New Covenant in which on is justified by faith in Christ alone.

Also, Jesus teaching that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life is expressed using other words after the cross.
What is the opposite of loving your brother?
It is hating your brother.
John says he that has his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
So this truth remains the same even after the cross.
Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
 
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Grip Docility

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Just because you say it is, does not make it so. There is no evidence in Scripture that Jesus was teaching primarily Old Covenant before the cross (vs. Jesus teaching primarily New Covenant). Again, just because Jesus quoted from the Torah in Luke 10:25-28, does not mean He was teaching Old Covenant.

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).



This is in context to "Circumcision Salvationism." I addressed this point to you just recently in another thread here.

This is why scripture says that to Know Jesus, then turn back to self for Salvation is worse than never knowing Jesus.

The wealth of Carnal pride is intoxicating and spirituality paralyzing!

I pray for dead bones.
 
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Also, Jesus teaching that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life is expressed using other words after the cross.
What is the opposite of loving your brother?
It is hating your brother.
John says he that has his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
So this truth remains the same even after the cross.
Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I have learned that Love is a catchphrase that hangs from the Commandments... to those that teach Faith in human flesh.
 
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To address the topic of Grace vs. Legalism:

"Legalism" is a false accusatory word for trying to shoot down the necessity of obedience as a part of loving Christ. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Obedience to God flows out of God's grace through faith in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:10).

We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word, and not only those verses that we prefer to see. The Bible says,

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
 
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bcbsr

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Also, Jesus teaching that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life is expressed using other words after the cross.
What is the opposite of loving your brother?
It is hating your brother.
John says he that has his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
So this truth remains the same even after the cross.
So you're claiming that you see no difference between the idea of earning eternal life by loving your neighbor versus the idea that those who were freely given eternal life by faith apart from works will naturally love their brothers in the faith?

As you have expressed so many times in the past, and refuse to change your mind about (that is, to repent of) confusing the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

Not trying to convince you, just showing viewers an obvious flaw in your logic, and your misconstruing scripture.
 
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