Is The Son Less Than The Father?

a lot of modalism being put forward in this thread.

Neogaia777 said:

God is Man, or a Man, or is just like men or man... might have been one main truth Jesus came to show or tell (to us (all), ect)...

Or at least, the God/god of this world is (is just like men or a man, ect)...

And He, Jesus, did it, or came to show this, by (stepping down from Heaven) (and) being and/or becoming a man Himself, and showing all what man could be, even compared to what he was or started out like) He was showing all what man could be, and that is, "like God" or just like God, because God is just like man, or the God/god of this world is anyway...

God is the God/Man, or the God who is Man, and/or the Man who is God, or is like the gods...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

God stepped down from Heaven, and became a Man, Jesus Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, to show the God/god of this world, What both He and Man was and could be, like I said above, ect, but also to provoke the God/god of this world to mad jealousy, and hatred and greed and envy, ect...

He (Jesus) came down from Heaven, to challenge and confront, the one who acting as our God/god here, but was not "there" or was not from "there" or where Jesus came from, ect...

And it provoked Him, made Him mad, drove Him to mad and insane Jealousy, Hatred, Envy, ect...

The full wrath of God/god, was truly put on and transferred to Christ and away from and off of us, after that, for His full wrath had been satisfied or finished or completed...

What happened "after that", is up for discussion/debate...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

And the Sin of Adam was complete and completed and brought to it's finish and was paid for in full, and now we have the Holy Spirit...

As perhaps we always did...

This sacred secret or hidden mystery is great indeed, how many can know it...? even if it is clearly told to them...?

Scary secret too, how many can truly grasp it...?

God Bless!

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Jesus was not wrong at all, and He was saying to the God/god of this world, "you are me and I am you, and I come from above and am just like the one from above and so are you...

The Trinity...

It was the one who is always above, that made the serpent to do what it did, both to Adam and YHWH, as part of His overall plan, ect... Jesus was saying to YHWH, "We are that one and that one is us, and we are each other, ect, and were near to no different from man, ect... In a lot of ways, ect... And in fact in all the ways that matter, we, none of us, are any or much different from them...

It was only up to the God/god of this world to admit it...

God Bless!

Maria Billingsley said:

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".
Jesus Christ of Nazareth

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yes, *IF*…

in practice:

John 1:18 = 1 John 4:12 = Exodus 33:20

"no one has [actually] seen God the Father"

com7fy8 said:

"All things that the Father has are Mine," in John 16:15...

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because "all authority in heaven & earth" was granted unto the Son from the Father (Matthew 28:18)

Pharaoh granted Joseph his Vizier complete authority over Egypt... because, ultimately, that authority was Pharaoh's to wield as he saw fit

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

But he said the father is greater.... are we to just ignore it?

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I know, I would scratch my head and ask the same question. Don't ignore Christ's words ignore theirs.

The greater than part (is shown as the Father being greater then all) even men swear by the greater. The Father sends the Son, the Father gives us Christ (who says the Father is greater then himself)

Even as he says,

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all

So the greater than all (the Father) sends the Son who takes the form of a servant, who was made in the likeness of men said

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Seems consistent with the same between them here

The servant is not greater than his Lord and neither is he that is sent (as Jesus Christ was sent) greater than he (the Father) that sent him.

My Father is greater than I

dms1972 said:

Some theologians say subordination may be understood in terms Jesus' function or role as Saviour, but not in terms of his being as God the Son, that's how I would understand it.

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My right hand can be subordinate to my left hand, but they are equal hands, in their being. My hands can be subordinate to my brain, but all are my body. My brain might be greater than my hands, in some way, but their being is the same.

Of course, Jesus is not only some impersonal part of something. Jesus is a Person . . . of love > "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). And Jesus is "the image of God" > 2 Corinthians 4:4 > an image of gold can have nothing but gold in it, plus there is gold elsewhere than in that image.

What matters is not only what label we put on Jesus, but how Jesus is and how Jesus loves. We are commanded to become like Jesus and to love like Jesus has loved >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, while we may be busy with whether or not to call Jesus "God", we need to make sure we are following His example.

Erik Nelson said:

Pharaoh granted Joseph his Vizier complete authority over Egypt... because, ultimately, that authority was Pharaoh's to wield as he saw fit

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But both were human in their being, though there were differences in who was greater in this or that.

So, yes there have been ways in which our Father has given to Jesus, but this does not automatically mean They are different in Their spiritual being.

I think of how Jesus has said >

"'For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (John 5:21-23)

So, if God wants us to honor Jesus "just as" we honor our Heavenly Father . . . this can show that Jesus is God . . . as the Son.

God sent His own Son, in His love for us. If we truly love, we give our own selves and not less. We love God, by giving ourselves to Him (2 Corinthians 8:5) > so, I can see, God loved us by giving His own Self > His own Son, Jesus. He did not send some lesser or second-best being ministering some second-best blessing.

"'And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.'" (John 17:22-23)

So, God loves us by giving us His very own "glory". And Jesus God's Son has claimed in this prayer how our Father loves us even as He loves Jesus. So, this is how sharing God is, as "love". And this is our example to follow > Ephesians 5:1-2, 1 John 4:17.

So, there is more to this than who gets which label.

I would say that correct theology will bring us to more and more share with God, in His own love and glory and this changing us to be and love like Jesus.

Another thing > about if the Holy Spirit is God >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, from this I think we can believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love. And my opinion is that no one but God can be the Spirit of His own love.

And Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "another Helper", in John 14:16. So, after Jesus had been here on earth, the Holy Spirit was going to be sent . . . as "another Helper", which I understand means Jesus was a Helper and the Holy Spirit then would be "another". Therefore > if the Holy Spirit is God, and "another Helper" after Jesus was a Helper, I can see this means Jesus is equal to the Holy Spirit who is a Person of God.

My fist post on here for a while.

To put it simply, we have one God in 3 forms. Jesus and the Father are one so of course one part of the one god cannot do something out of accord with another part. My favourite verses of the Bible are Mark 12:29-30. The Lord is one. If they are the same they will do the same thing. When Jesus became flesh he took on being a man and was forsaken by the Father, but now he is in his full glory and fully God.

I also think that this is where the church is falling down these days. There doesnt seem to be the same love for all persons of the Trinity as there was 20 years ago and rather than loving all three persons of the Trinity with all your strength it now seems to be more about what the Father can do for me. This affects the worldwide church from what I have seen and isnt limited to any part or denomination.

@GirdYourLoins

I was looking into Modalism, and Pentecostal was the only major church that seems to have Modalism(Oneness Doctrine). Although I'm not sure on what type. It's seems to multiply the modes ad-infinitium

I found Monarchical Modalism(Sabellism). Father(Time-Cognition), Son(Object- Jesus Christ), Holy Ghost(Space- Unbound telesis). To make the most sense to me.

Here are the three mentioned here in one verse (along with David)

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Which is God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

As far as oneness goes, Jesus said

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

But at the same time Jesus prayed that we would be one in the same way he and the Father are one

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Which is,

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Even the glory given them to behold as is mentioned also in 2 Cr 3:18 which is as by the Spirit

He was not alone, the Father was in him

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

He said, they are one, in the same way as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, even as he that sent me is with me (John 8:29) and again, his prayer for them was, that they may be one, even as we are one (John 17:22)

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Whats ANYTHING?

Blade said:

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Whats ANYTHING?

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Bounded Identity(Percept). Either a soul(self-actualized/binding) or telor(input-output processing).

Blade said:

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Whats ANYTHING?

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I never looked at that word before

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing G1520 made that was made.

Which Father did He mean was greater...?

Neogaia777 said:

Which Father did He mean was greater...?

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There wasn't a Pope but I doubt he meant Joe

Neogaia777 said:

Well, I thank you dear, but you really didn't offend me though, it's just the way I am on here... If anything I am the one who is "sorry"... For many things and alot of things on here most especially...

Maybe it was your presumptuousness that made me respond the way did, but I wasn't really offended per say...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

God is Man, or a Man, or is just like men or man... might have been one main truth Jesus came to show or tell (to us (all), ect)...

Or at least, the God/god of this world is (is just like men or a man, ect)...

And He, Jesus, did it, or came to show this, by (stepping down from Heaven) (and) being and/or becoming a man Himself, and showing all what man could be, even compared to what he was or started out like) He was showing all what man could be, and that is, "like God" or just like God, because God is just like man, or the God/god of this world is anyway...

God is the God/Man, or the God who is Man, and/or the Man who is God, or is like the gods...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Neogaia777 said:

God stepped down from Heaven, and became a Man, Jesus Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, to show the God/god of this world, What both He and Man was and could be, like I said above, ect, but also to provoke the God/god of this world to mad jealousy, and hatred and greed and envy, ect...

He (Jesus) came down from Heaven, to challenge and confront, the one who acting as our God/god here, but was not "there" or was not from "there" or where Jesus came from, ect...

And it provoked Him, made Him mad, drove Him to mad and insane Jealousy, Hatred, Envy, ect...

The full wrath of God/god, was truly put on and transferred to Christ and away from and off of us, after that, for His full wrath had been satisfied or finished or completed...

What happened "after that", is up for discussion/debate...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Neogaia777 said:

And the Sin of Adam was complete and completed and brought to it's finish and was paid for in full, and now we have the Holy Spirit...

As perhaps we always did...

This sacred secret or hidden mystery is great indeed, how many can know it...? even if it is clearly told to them...?

Scary secret too, how many can truly grasp it...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Neogaia777 said:

Jesus was not wrong at all, and He was saying to the God/god of this world, "you are me and I am you, and I come from above and am just like the one from above and so are you...

The Trinity...

It was the one who is always above, that made the serpent to do what it did, both to Adam and YHWH, as part of His overall plan, ect... Jesus was saying to YHWH, "We are that one and that one is us, and we are each other, ect, and were near to no different from man, ect... In a lot of ways, ect... And in fact in all the ways that matter, we, none of us, are any or much different from them...

It was only up to the God/god of this world to admit it...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

That original serpent was part of the Highest Fathers plan, temporarily, yes, it was and is a setup, but it's a very, very, very good setup...

He was meant to screw with YHWH and Adam, come between them, ect, and the Holy Spirit and Christ now, or back then and up to now, He is not God like you guys are, nor is he even a god, and might even be a man, IDK...? But I'm not Him, I guarantee you that, as I have just shown you both, here in my privacy and private room...

My white flag is up and has been up for a while now, and I'm down on my knees, and have been for while now, and I know what I am, which is not God or even a god, but just a man, the real enemy will or would not do any of these things or even admit to any of these things I am doing or do before you...

But, he (that original serpent or Satan the Devil) was put here for us, (By the Highest Father) for all of us, to confront and challenge and make war with and come against, neither one of you are the Devil either, but now you have a common enemy to come against, and I sincerely hope that will be "together" I would hope...

Let's find him and be done with it...

The Highest Father, put him here for us, as a temporary part of a very, very, very good setup (for us) and plan (for us) (maybe not for "him" but for us)...

I don't know all the details of that plan, but it is a very, very, very good, and ultimately, very good and very high and superior plan for all of who are not the Devil...

Without someone to fight against, how would we grow...? How would we all be and become one with the Highest Father in the end... He (Satan the Devil) is temporary...

Let's find this or these enemies and do away with them and all they represent and be done with it shall we...

I'm on board, if there is anything at all I can do toward this goal and aim, just let me know, K...? I would love nothing more than to even be just some small part of the plan of doing away with him/them once and for all and for good...

God Bless!

JacobKStarkey said:

Jesus says the Father is greater. No one can unsay that or argue it away.

Tree of Life points out the tar-baby nature of scripture.

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Just wanted to say. I struggled with this *for years*. I get it.

Studying early Christian writings on the Trinity helped. As did a clip from Babylon 5. And finally, being able to attend an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy, and see faith in the Holy Trinity hymned.

Here's the Babylon 5 clip;

Sorry for highjacking this thread, here's a song for you to all to enjoy...

You'll know I wasn't joking when you see them too...

I hope it won't be a nightmare for you...


God Bless!

The enemy, our enemy, is the evil and wicked men (that Satan operates in)... but who is/are the evil and wicked men, that is the question...?

God Bless!

com7fy8 said:

But both were human in their being, though there were differences in who was greater in this or that.

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correct, both The God The Father and His Word are fully Godly = Godlike = Divine in their essence of being

yet, all authority begins in & with The Father... who, as it happens, has delegated all such authority to the Son (Matt 28:18), including Judgement (= John 5:21-23, as you noted)

The Father remains remote and "aloof" from our creation, yet His Word and His Spirit "reach" from that Transcendent 3rd Heaven into our world as we know it, being just as Divine in essence as The Father who generates & sends them ("begets" the Word, "proceeds" the Spirit)I would say that correct theology will bring us to more and more share with God, in His own love and glory and this changing us to be and love like Jesus.

Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, "the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) Yet speaking from His Divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are ONE." (John 10:30)