SDA Founder Ellen White is a Plagiarist

Dale said:

You mention copyright laws but I'm not sure that takes us anywhere. In the US in the 19th century very few books were copyrighted and American law did not recognize foreign copyrights. The US actually did not ratify the Berne Convention, the international copyright convention, until 1989.

It may be technically correct to say that Ellen White did not violate copyright law, but that doesn't make what she did ethical. Honesty requires giving others a bit of credit. She built on the thoughts of others and she should have admitted it.

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LOL! Believe what you want! Jesus and the disciples quoted the OT all the time and never said who wrote it. EGW had a 3rd grade education. Many writers could be accused of the same thing. Point being---she was in no way guilty. You don't even know what portions are in question---you have not read her writings so you have no idea. You're just going by what somebody who didn't know was saying, not from what you know.

Dale said:

mmksparbud: "The bible does not teach an immortal soul---it is of pagan, Greek origin. There haver been countless threads on the topic, not one of which can prove it, for even Christ did not preach it."


Sparbud, you think the New Testament doesn't teach us about a soul? Try a couple of the Epistles for starters.


8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1: 8-9 NIV

11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:11 NIV

25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 2:25 NIV

2 Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.
3 John 1:2 NIV

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I said IMMORTAL SOUL.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You will not find immortal soul anywhere---God aloone is immortal.

Dale said:

The SDA are experts in quoting the Bible to mean the opposite of what it says.

In the five books of Conflict of the Ages, Ellen White used the word "soul" over five hundred times. Why does she keep talking about the soul if she doesn't believe in the soul?

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It would help if you understood English!!! I SAID---IMMORTAL soul!!! Do you not comprehend the word IMMORTAL? There is no IMMORTAL soul!!!! Again IMMORTAL is the word you keep either ignoring or not comprehending. How big, and what color do I need to make the word IMMORTAL.

Of those 500 times---how many times did she claim there was an immortal soul?

Dale said:

mmksparbud: " Sorry if your hatred for someone deprives you of having them tortured for eternity. What if it is someone you love that is being tortured? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked---much less in torturing them forever."

You are not in a position to second guess me on why I came to believe in an eternal hell. As a teenager, under the influence of some flaky books, I didn't believe in it. I came to believe in an eternal hell from reading what the Gospels really say. Jesus gives very strong warnings on this subject.



Likewise, do not try to second guess God on that subject. I don't believe that God takes any pleasure in the existence of hell, or sending people there. Nevertheless, the Bible is perfectly clear that there is such a place and such a condition. God's reasons have not been revealed to us but Christians have faith in the goodness of God.

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I do not have to second guess God on the subject---all one has to do is put all of the bible verses together and know the character of God.
As for second guessing anyone who wants an eternal burning hell it is all anyone can do for there is no need to think such a thing when the bible does not teach it, nor does it fit in with a just and loving God and it therefore must be a personal need of the individual.

mmksparbud said:

I do not have to second guess God on the subject---all one has to do is put all of the bible verses together and know the character of God.
As for second guessing anyone who wants an eternal burning hell it is all anyone can do for there is no need to think such a thing when the bible does not teach it, nor does it fit in with a just and loving God and it therefore must be a personal need of the individual.

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Revelation 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Revelation 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

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Every single one of those verses have been clarified, several, times. You can look up old threads on the subject--there are many of them. Just one thing---it says that they shall be tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. YOU REALLY THINK THAT JESUS AND ALL THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO DURING ALL OF ETERNITY THAN TO SIT AND WATCH MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WRITHING IN AGAONY? "Gabriel---pass the popcorn!"
What a perverse thought.

mmksparbud said:

Every single one of those verses have been clarified, several, times. You can look up old threads on the subject--there are many of them. Just one thing---it says that they shall be tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. YOU REALLY THINK THAT JESUS AND ALL THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO DURING ALL OF ETERNITY THAN TO SIT AND WATCH MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WRITHING IN AGAONY? "Gabriel---pass the popcorn!"
What a perverse thought.

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That is what is written. If it is perverse in your way of thinking take it up with God. He is a Vengeful Jealous God after all.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

That is what is written. If it is perverse in your way of thinking take it up with God. He is a Vengeful Jealous God after all.

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Yes, He is--and He hates His character being lied about. I do not need to take it up with God. His word is His character. If you think He is spending eternity watching millions fry, the problem is with your thinking---not God's.

mmksparbud said:

Yes, He is--and He hates His character being lied about. I do not need to take it up with God. His word is His character. If you think He is spending eternity watching millions fry, the problem is with your thinking---not God's.

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I never lied about his Character sister, I can quote you the verses that say exactly that, he is a vengeful Jealous God.

That's exactly what he told us would be happening in his word(his character as you said). Apart from a clear reading of his word I don't add anything to what is written. If you don't believe what is written then the problem lies with you sister, not with God's word.

Choosing God gives you everlasting joy and peace in heaven, choosing Satan gives you everlasting torment and unrest in the Lake of Fire. Comparing the reward and the punishment to each other shows that it is indeed a Just God passing the Sentence.

God bless you Sister

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

I never lied about his Character sister, I can quote you the verses that say exactly that, he is a vengeful Jealous God.

That's exactly what he told us would be happening in his word(his character as you said). Apart from a clear reading of his word I don't add anything to what is written. If you don't believe what is written then the problem lies with you sister, not with God's word.

Choosing God gives you everlasting joy and peace in heaven, choosing Satan gives you everlasting torment and unrest in the Lake of Fire. Comparing the reward and the punishment to each other shows that it is indeed a Just God passing the Sentence.

God bless you Sister

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Then read all of His word, not just the verses the appear to say what you want.
This is the end of Satan and all his followers.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The gift of God is eternal life. The wicked get eternal death.

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus says everlasting punishment---He does not say everlasting punishing. The outcome is eternal life---or eternal death, not eternal dying.
There is no such thing as an immortal soul. The concept is not in the bible. When God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die. He never said they would be tormented in hell forever.
Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of life to have immortality. They were kicked out of the garden to prevent that.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We get the tree of life back.
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Name one verse that states the lost are given eternal life. You can only burn forever if you have eternal life. The bible is clear that eternal life is only for the saved.

oh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As a Christian, I am grateful to God that the scriptures themselves do not pass under the same type of scrutiny as do Mrs. White's writings. I would suggest that all the critics who indulge here dare not venture so boldly into the territory of skeptic apologetics. It could be a very unsettling experience. I am a Seventh-day Adventist which, I thought, was an accepted Christian faith in this forum. This thread suggests otherwise. Not because of a bona fide attack upon Adventism or anything as obvious as that, but because of the spirit exhibited here. I am a member of the worldwide church of 29 years, but the uninitiated could be well-nigh devastated by the absence of Christian charity so glaringly obvious in this "discussion." Yesterday, when I found that Adventists were technically (I feel I must now use that qualifier, somehow) welcomed here, I was pleasantly surprised and impressed. Now, well...

I would also suggest that true facts are in much shorter supply now (despite the proliferation of the information age) than they were 20 years ago when I had to face this dilemma, and that the manipulation and misrepresentation of data employed here would never have been possible then. Misinformation, as we all (unfortunately) know, spreads much more readily than its counterpart.

Further, Gentlemen (since the ladies don't seem to have much of a stomach for this sort of thing), although I find there is the characteristic little regard for the fourth commandment here, I'm surprised to find such a neglect of the keeping of the ninth. A cursory study of the great critics of Seventh-day Adventism (Canright, Hoekema, Rea, Numbers, Ford, Ratzlaff) would show that little if any careful effort has been exerted here to protect believers from heresy, and that most of what little sweat there is comes from Googling and typing to the disparagement of dead folks who can't defend themselves. Even published biographies under no formal dispute are dismissed as base rumors.

The Investigative Judgment (which is the only doctrine unique to Adventism, by the way) is barely accosted except for a few mentions of 1844 and the trusty ol' "scapegoat" hammer. However, I couldn't recommend pursuing it any further, unless (since the scripture declares "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary..." {Psalm 77:13}) by thoughtful examination one would care to risk uncovering a duty that some might hesitate to bear.

Rest assured that no offense has been taken by me, and if anything need be forgiven, it is already done since, being a follower and devotee of Christ, I understand that forgiveness is not an event, but an attitude of grace to be embraced as a blessed way of life. My heart thrills when I meditate upon His mercy!

Dale said:

When I say that Ellen White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventist church, has been accused of plagiarism, you might jump to the conclusion that this comes from some hack writer. You might think it comes from an unauthorized biography.

The claim that decisive evidence of plagiarism has been found actually comes from Ron Graybill, Associate Secretary of the Ellen G. White Estate. His conclusions were presented at a General Conference of the SDA Church between November 15, 1981 and November 19, 1981.

To summarize Graybill's conclusions, the often repeated claim that Ellen White only had a third grade education is bogus. It was intended to reinforce the impression that her knowledge came from Divine revelation. She did read commentaries on the Bible and theological works. Theologians are often hesitant to make assertions that are difficult to prove. In many cases, E. White's contribution is to turn the "speculations and conjectures of her sources into statements of positive fact." She turned the suggestions of theologians into sweeping claims that her followers assumed to be absolute.

Borrowings appear in her prophetic writing and in specific visions, her Divine revelations . None of her writing can be said to be free from unacknowledged borrowings. This includes claims about God, Satan, and angels. One consequence of borrowing from diverse sources is that "literary beauty" cannot be evidence of "divine inspiration." She also made use of "literary assistants," putting her stamp of approval on the finished product. "Close paraphrasing" of E. White's sources are common.

Adventists need to not only read the Bible but compare Ellen White's doctrines to the Bible.



Link:
E.G. White’s Literary Work: An Update

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Please cite the source wherein Elder Graybill denounces this account as "bogus":

Ellen G. White: The Early Years: 1827-1862 (vol. 1)
Chapter 2—(1836-1843) Abrupt Changes in Ellen's Life
Ellen G. White: The Early Years: 1827-1862 (vol. 1)
Schooling Cut Off
Ellen G. White: The Early Years: 1827-1862 (vol. 1)

David Wright said:

As a Christian, I am grateful to God that the scriptures themselves do not pass under the same type of scrutiny as do Mrs. White's writings. I would suggest that all the critics who indulge here dare not venture so boldly into the territory of skeptic apologetics. It could be a very unsettling experience. I am a Seventh-day Adventist which, I thought, was an accepted Christian faith in this forum. This thread suggests otherwise. Not because of a bona fide attack upon Adventism or anything as obvious as that, but because of the spirit exhibited here. I am a member of the worldwide church of 29 years, but the uninitiated could be well-nigh devastated by the absence of Christian charity so glaringly obvious in this "discussion." Yesterday, when I found that Adventists were technically (I feel I must now use that qualifier, somehow) welcomed here, I was pleasantly surprised and impressed. Now, well...

I would also suggest that true facts are in much shorter supply now (despite the proliferation of the information age) than they were 20 years ago when I had to face this dilemma, and that the manipulation and misrepresentation of data employed here would never have been possible then. Misinformation, as we all (unfortunately) know, spreads much more readily than its counterpart.

Further, Gentlemen (since the ladies don't seem to have much of a stomach for this sort of thing), although I find there is the characteristic little regard for the fourth commandment here, I'm surprised to find such a neglect of the keeping of the ninth. A cursory study of the great critics of Seventh-day Adventism (Canright, Hoekema, Rea, Numbers, Ford, Ratzlaff) would show that little if any careful effort has been exerted here to protect believers from heresy, and that most of what little sweat there is comes from Googling and typing to the disparagement of dead folks who can't defend themselves. Even published biographies under no formal dispute are dismissed as base rumors.

The Investigative Judgment (which is the only doctrine unique to Adventism, by the way) is barely accosted except for a few mentions of 1844 and the trusty ol' "scapegoat" hammer. However, I couldn't recommend pursuing it any further, unless (since the scripture declares "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary..." {Psalm 77:13}) by thoughtful examination one would care to risk uncovering a duty that some might hesitate to bear.

Rest assured that no offense has been taken by me, and if anything need be forgiven, it is already done since, being a follower and devotee of Christ, I understand that forgiveness is not an event, but an attitude of grace to be embraced as a blessed way of life. My heart thrills when I meditate upon His mercy!

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LOL! Saying you are SDA is tantamount to waiving a red flag at a bull here! You will be called all sorts of things. I'm already used to it. I just explain what they have wrong.

mmksparbud said:

LOL! Saying you are SDA is tantamount to waiving a red flag at a bull here! You will be called all sorts of things. I'm already used to it. I just explain what they have wrong.

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And you find that laughable...

David Wright said:

And you find that laughable...

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I'm certainly not going to get huffy and upset about it. was tempted to do as some people on here do---just say "Christian" or "non-denom." But I figured if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm 68---not easily offended anymore.
Psa_119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

dde`

mmksparbud said:

LOL! Saying you are SDA is tantamount to waiving a red flag at a bull here! You will be called all sorts of things. I'm already used to it. I just explain what they have wrong.

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mmksparbud said:

I'm certainly not going to get huffy and upset about it. was tempted to do as some people on here do---just say "Christian" or "non-denom." But I figured if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm 68---not easily offended anymore.
Psa_119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

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Thanks for the advice. I would simply say that I'm neither proud nor ashamed to be an Adventist. Certainly nothing wrong with Christian (although in North America, at least, it has become very unfortunately clichéd). i think I might be uncomfortable with "non-denom," though.