Is The Son Less Than The Father?

Erik Nelson · Jun 21, 2019

truefiction1 said:
Jesus did not say "No one is good except the father". He said "No one is good but God"... Jesus is indeed "good", because Jesus is indeed God in the flesh.

Yes, God's Word incarnated into human flesh on earth

But not The God, The Father

Jesus Christ was not God The Father incarnate. God The Father remains transcendent, "aloof" from Creation, interacting with our created space-time only through His Word & His Spirit

God The Father begets His Word, and "sent" His Word into our Creation, in the flesh of Jesus Christ

God The Father also sends His Spirit into our Creation

God's Own Word and God's Own Spirit are fully Godly, fully Godlike, fully Divine

But they are not The God The Father Himself, the one-and-only-completely-uncreated-and-unbegotten-and-ungenerated Being, the-one-and-only-First-Cause-of-all

Orthodox Christianity has always preserved the Monarchy of The Father

Maria Billingsley said:
They are ONE and the same. And we will never understand how that works. This is no mystery to a Holy Spirit filled believer. That body knows what Body it is in.
Blessings.

ONE as in "fully united", "one in essence of being"

but not IDENTICALLY THE EXACT SAME...

otherwise we wouldn't have all these different words floating around

The Father is not The Word is not The Spirit

just as Archangel Michael is not Archangel Gabriel is not Archangel Raphael (say)

The God The Father remains remote, "aloof", transcendent in the 3rd heaven beyond our atmosphere (1st heaven) and even outer space (2nd heaven)

The God The Father only ever interacts into our created space-time through, by means of, via His Word and/or His Spirit...

which He "begets" and "generates" (respectively) and sends into our created space-time

His Word & His Spirit are fully straight directly from Him, so They are fully Godly Divine in essence of being

yet they are separate "Persons", which function as God the Father's "two hands" (to quote Saint Irenaeus)

The God The Father remains transcendently aloof in the 3rd heaven
The God The Father "reaches into" our created space-time (e.g. earth, sky (1st heaven), space (2nd heaven)) with "His Hands" (Word + Spirit)
only "His Hands" (Word + Spirit) ever manifest within our created space-time

Actually experiencing The God The Father directly is called the "beatific vision" (beautiful beneficial vision) which is reserved unto the righteous saints who are raised into (3rd) heaven via Resurrection (unto Life) as at Final Judgement:

Beatific vision - Wikipedia

Kaon · Jun 21, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

If I had the power to turn my words into a sentient, sovereign entity with faculties and a body, then that would be my son.

My words are also me: my will is stored in the action of my words. Without my will, I don't speak. Having an entity that says everything I mean and feel - without deviation (because they choose to even) - is equivalent to my psyche/mind/me.

However, my words get authority from me - So even though my Word would be the same as me, he would also be "lower" than me in the sense that the power to endow my Word (my will) comes from me first.

This is why when the Redeemer says the Father has put everything in His hands, we know He is King. The Father and Son are one, but the Father is the Father.

Neogaia777 · Jun 21, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Oh I’m really sorry I offended you. It was not my intentions at all. I was referring to certainty about if he was equal to the father or not.... and all I meant by saying there is no need to debate was that when there is certainty debating is unnecessary. Either way the fact that I offended you is what I’m focused on and I just wanted to say sorry. I’m going to move on from this thread now.

Well, I thank you dear, but you really didn't offend me though, it's just the way I am on here... If anything I am the one who is "sorry"... For many things and alot of things on here most especially...

Maybe it was your presumptuousness that made me respond the way did, but I wasn't really offended per say...

God Bless!

S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 22, 2019

you don't have the members of the triune God with their own agendas off doing their own thing individually.

Grip Docility · Jun 22, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Then who is he talking too? I’ve understood that everyone is trying to look at Jesus words in context. The only problem with context is your forced to add in our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.... I do like to understand correctly, so my question is can you or anybody else show me where Jesus made it clear that he didn’t mean what he said when he said the father is greater than he is? I’m not asking to try and prove anybody wrong, I’m asking so that I could get away from all our opinions on the matter and to the truth

The Father Son relationship is real. If it weren’t, when Jesus experienced “Thanatos”... the world would have ceased to exist.

The nuances of this all can create 1000’s of differing ideas... but at the end of the day we know Jesus is YHWH... yet God the Father truly did “send” God the Son, as God the Son sent the Holy Spirit.

Grip Docility · Jun 22, 2019

THE W said:
you don't have the members of the triune God with their own agendas off doing their own thing individually.

Deuteronomy 6:4 ; John 10:30 ; John 16:7 ; 1 John 5:7 ; Matthew 1:18 ...

Grip Docility · Jun 22, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Then who is he talking too? I’ve understood that everyone is trying to look at Jesus words in context. The only problem with context is your forced to add in our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.... I do like to understand correctly, so my question is can you or anybody else show me where Jesus made it clear that he didn’t mean what he said when he said the father is greater than he is? I’m not asking to try and prove anybody wrong, I’m asking so that I could get away from all our opinions on the matter and to the truth

I’ll probably get shot for this... but the key is in this verse... in my opinion... 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Ronald · Jun 22, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Then who is he talking too? I’ve understood that everyone is trying to look at Jesus words in context. The only problem with context is your forced to add in our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.... I do like to understand correctly, so my question is can you or anybody else show me where Jesus made it clear that he didn’t mean what he said when he said the father is greater than he is? I’m not asking to try and prove anybody wrong, I’m asking so that I could get away from all our opinions on the matter and to the truth

He relinquished His glory. His purpose was not to come down from heaven and display all His power and glory. He became a man. He had a specific mission, nothing more, nothing less.
He came to be a lamb put out to slaughter, to suffer - a meek, gentle, loving, suffering servant - not to be a LION, a KING (this time, but thay time is coming soon). He didnt come to say, "Here I am, LORD of the UNIVERSE, THE CREATOR ... Bow down all you citizen's of My world and worship Me ... or else, die, into Bell's fire and be destroyed ." He also could have said, "You Pharisees, you white- washed tombs, another word from you and I'll stop your heart."
He could have put that fear in them by turning Pontius Pilate into a mindless fool on his fours eating grass like a cow. He could have turned all the Pharisees into lepers or spontaneously combust in front of everyone to see and anyone with an evil thought against him - ten plagues to infect you and your family. No, no, no.
He didn't, He stood there and received insults, bunches, spit, flogging, and death without saying anything. That was His mission, a humble, lamb who takes away the sins of the world, obedient and worthy to be glorified as LORD over ALL.

brinny · Jun 22, 2019

Tree of Life said:
The Son submitted to the Father in his mission on earth and in his human nature, but the divine Son is equal with the Father in every way, including authority.

THIS.

You beat me to it.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 22, 2019

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".
Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Maria Billingsley · Jun 22, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
The God The Father remains remote, "aloof", transcendent in the 3rd heaven beyond our atmosphere (1st heaven) and even outer space (2nd heaven)

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".
Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Pavel Mosko · Jun 22, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

I agree, but will note that Arianism shows the problems/limitations of a "Biblically based", proof texting, sound bite theology. It is very easy to see things in an Arian way, because many passages of the Bible when taking in isolation do or can, sound very Arian. This is why the Arian bishop Maximinus was such a problem in the late days of saint Augustine. He could quote most people under the table with Bible passages according to the Arian view and it took Augustine to show how those passages could be understood in an orthodox Trinitarian, hypostatic sense.

Tree of Life · Jun 22, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
I agree, but will note that Arianism shows the problems/limitations of a "Biblically based", proof texting, sound bite theology. It is very easy to see things in an Arian way, because many passages of the Bible when taking in isolation do or can, sound very Arian. This is why the Arian bishop Maximinus was such a problem in the late days of saint Augustine. He could quote most people under the table with Bible passages according to the Arian view and it took Augustine to show how those passages could be understood in an orthodox Trinitarian, hypostatic sense.

If I'm not mistaken, Augustine used Scripture to defeat Arianism.

Pavel Mosko · Jun 22, 2019

He did what I said in the previous post, He showed how the passages could be understood dogmatically speaking according to Trinitarian, hypostatic (and possibly other Nicene concepts). But the whole issue was with dogma. The whole conflict was a microcosm of Later scriptural conflicts especially with Protestants and Catholics (and Orthodox) of modern times over dogmatic issues especially concerning the clearness or perspicuity of scripture. It is one thing to claim that the Bible is clear on something like Jesus being the only way to salvation. It is another when someone claims it is clear on every aspect of doctrine etc. Especially when such doctrines come out of a long history of developmental theology and revelation.

dms1972 · Jun 22, 2019

The problem of Arianism is that it posited a being somewhere inbetween God and man. Heresy is a bigger problem when an individual has known the truth and is moving away from it. But if they haven't yet come to a full understanding of the truth then remember they might be halfway there, and just need to be asked "given you accept this or that why not go all the way to what the Bible says?" Intermediate positions are difficult to remain in though, a person seeking truth tends after a time to either move closer to orthodoxy or further away.

James Orr wrote about this:

"It would be a shallow reading of history to attribute the defeat of Arianism in the early church to the anathemas of councils, the influence of court favor, or any other accidental circumstances. It perished through its own inherent weakness. If the Arians admit all they profess to do about Christ - that he was pre-existent, God's agent in the creation of the world etc. - there need be little difficulty in admitting the rest. On the other hand, if they stop short of the higher view to which the scriptures seem to point, they entangle themselves in difficulties and contradictions, exegetical and other, which make it impossible for them to remain where they are. In reality these high sounding attributes which they ascribe to Christ are an excrescence on the system; for on this theory no work remains for Christ to do which could not have been accomplished equally well by a highly endowed man. Historically, therefore Arianism has always tended to work round to the Socinian or strictly Unitarian view of Christ, where it has not gone upwards, through semi-Arianism, to the recognition of His full Divinity." [from The Christian View of God and the World]

Some theologians say subordination may be understood in terms Jesus' function or role as Saviour, but not in terms of his being as God the Son, that's how I would understand it.

Neogaia777 · Jun 22, 2019

God is Man, or a Man, or is just like men or man... might have been one main truth Jesus came to show or tell (to us (all), ect)...

Or at least, the God/god of this world is (is just like men or a man, ect)...

And He, Jesus, did it, or came to show this, by (stepping down from Heaven) (and) being and/or becoming a man Himself, and showing all what man could be, even compared to what he was or started out like) He was showing all what man could be, and that is, "like God" or just like God, because God is just like man, or the God/god of this world is anyway...

God is the God/Man, or the God who is Man, and/or the Man who is God, or is like the gods...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jun 22, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
God is Man, or a Man, or is just like men or man... might have been one main truth Jesus came to show or tell (to us (all), ect)...

Or at least, the God/god of this world is (is just like men or a man, ect)...

And He, Jesus, did it, or came to show this, by (stepping down from Heaven) (and) being and/or becoming a man Himself, and showing all what man could be, even compared to what he was or started out like) He was showing all what man could be, and that is, "like God" or just like God, because God is just like man, or the God/god of this world is anyway...

God is the God/Man, or the God who is Man, and/or the Man who is God, or is like the gods...

God Bless!

God stepped down from Heaven, and became a Man, Jesus Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, to show the God/god of this world, What both He and Man was and could be, like I said above, ect, but also to provoke the God/god of this world to mad jealousy, and hatred and greed and envy, ect...

He (Jesus) came down from Heaven, to challenge and confront, the one who acting as our God/god here, but was not "there" or was not from "there" or where Jesus came from, ect...

And it provoked Him, made Him mad, drove Him to mad and insane Jealousy, Hatred, Envy, ect...

The full wrath of God/god, was truly put on and transferred to Christ and away from and off of us, after that, for His full wrath had been satisfied or finished or completed...

What happened "after that", is up for discussion/debate...

God Bless!

com7fy8 · Jun 22, 2019

Tree of Life said:
One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But if Jesus can do what He sees His Father doing, this can mean Jesus has as much ability as His Father. And so, He is not less.

Another thing > even if Jesus is subject to our Father, this can mean only difference in position. You can have difference in position and even status, but these have nothing to do with how you are in love. You can be more real in love, than someone in higher position and of greater status.

As far as love is concerned, I can see Jesus means >

"All things that the Father has are Mine," in John 16:15. I see how this means character of love, especially.

But we humans can suppose our equality depends on having the same position, same power, same rights, and that no one has to be controlled by someone else. But these things do not decide if we know how to love or not, or if we have character of God's love.

Neogaia777 · Jun 22, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
God is Man, or a Man, or is just like men or man... might have been one main truth Jesus came to show or tell (to us (all), ect)...

Or at least, the God/god of this world is (is just like men or a man, ect)...

And He, Jesus, did it, or came to show this, by (stepping down from Heaven) (and) being and/or becoming a man Himself, and showing all what man could be, even compared to what he was or started out like) He was showing all what man could be, and that is, "like God" or just like God, because God is just like man, or the God/god of this world is anyway...

God is the God/Man, or the God who is Man, and/or the Man who is God, or is like the gods...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:
God stepped down from Heaven, and became a Man, Jesus Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, to show the God/god of this world, What both He and Man was and could be, like I said above, ect, but also to provoke the God/god of this world to mad jealousy, and hatred and greed and envy, ect...

He (Jesus) came down from Heaven, to challenge and confront, the one who acting as our God/god here, but was not "there" or was not from "there" or where Jesus came from, ect...

And it provoked Him, made Him mad, drove Him to mad and insane Jealousy, Hatred, Envy, ect...

The full wrath of God/god, was truly put on and transferred to Christ and away from and off of us, after that, for His full wrath had been satisfied or finished or completed...

What happened "after that", is up for discussion/debate...

God Bless!

And the Sin of Adam was complete and completed and brought to it's finish and was paid for in full, and now we have the Holy Spirit...

As perhaps we always did...

This sacred secret or hidden mystery is great indeed, how many can know it...? even if it is clearly told to them...?

Scary secret too, how many can truly grasp it...?

God Bless!

Barney2.0 · Jun 22, 2019

The Father is greater in authority to the Son, they’re however one in essence, just like how you have a boss at work, doesn’t mean he’s less human then you or is physically more powerful then you or is more knowledgeable then you.

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