On Baptism

-57 · Jun 22, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
"Once saved always saved"?

It's a recent teaching.

No one can snatch you from the Father's hand. But you can certainly leave or fall out on your own.

It doesn't make sense that we have "free will" to accept or reject God, but the moment we accept, we lose our free will.

And yes I know, "if you're really saved, you will never leave". That makes sense. How can one know God and then later apostatize? But some people do. And the Scripture warns of this also (Hebrews 10, for one). The warning wouldn't be there if it was impossible.

If you can leave or fall out on your own...then you've snatched yourself. The bible says you can't be snatched.
If someone or something convinced you Christianity isn't for you that that person or thing snatched you...which you know the bible says can't be done.

Then again if you feel like you need to leave or walk away it's also possible you were never saved in the first place.

As to Heb 10, I'm quite sure which verse you are speaking of.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 22, 2019

-57 said:
If you can leave or fall out on your own...then you've snatched yourself. The bible says you can't be snatched.
If someone or something convinced you Christianity isn't for you that that person or thing snatched you...which you know the bible says can't be done.

Then again if you feel like you need to leave or walk away it's also possible you were never saved in the first place.

As to Heb 10, I'm quite sure which verse you are speaking of.

Verses 26-39

Maybe Hebrews 6:6-15 is better.

And there are many passages about the need to persevere, and to endure, and so on.

Please don't take an interpretation of one verse - and something it doesn't even say (it does not say we have no power ourselves to abandon God) - and let that overpower the rest of Scripture to suit a doctrine (and one that was never taught until recently).

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And incidentally - it says we cannot be separated from the love of God. That is actually true. God IS love, and He loves all. He desires that all men be saved, and takes no pleasure in the death of sinners. He will love us even if we hate Him. So actually - nothing can separate us from the love of God. But how do you think that will help the person who hates God with all his being, and doesn't want to accept it? In that person's distorted state, he will suffer from the very love of God.

But in no way does that verse say that we cannot abandon following Christ.

Andrei D · Jun 22, 2019

-57 said:
Jesus taught that once we are placed in the Fathers hand, or His hand you can't be snatched out of the hand.
If you're saved you stay saved.

A christians life might not always reflect a "saved" life...but none the less they will remain saved.

No. One's life must be of preparation, perseverance and good deeds in cooperation to the received gifts, so as to grow in grace. It is a process, not a moment. It is a journey, not a checkbox. Christ did everything He could to make this as abundantly clear as possible. This "teaching" in bold above is dangerous and antichristic. You are spreading the word of the enemy and I do not think you do that knowingly, so this is a friendly warning, "for it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!"

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand"

"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty"

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."

"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened"

"the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. "

“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?”

"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut."

"Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money."

"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God"

-57 · Jun 22, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
Verses 26-39

I was trying to find salvation in the verse.

It started with "26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

Many people hear the gospel, receive knowledge of the truth and go on sinning. They have never accepted the knowledge of the truth. They were never saved.

-57 · Jun 22, 2019

Andrei D said:
No. One's life must be of preparation, perseverance and good deeds in cooperation to the received gifts, so as to grow in grace. It is a process, not a moment. It is a journey, not a checkbox. Christ did everything He could to make this as abundantly clear as possible. This "teaching" in bold above is dangerous and antichristic. You are spreading the word of the enemy and I do not think you do that knowingly, so this is a friendly warning, "for it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!"

You're right that one's life must be of preparation, perseverance and good deeds in cooperation to the received gifts, so as to grow in grace.

let me start here where the above will be judged...
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

As for calling me "antichristic"....what I have said is based on the bible.

prodromos · Jun 22, 2019

-57 said:
If you can leave or fall out on your own...then you've snatched yourself. The bible says you can't be snatched.

Grab your hair and pull yourself up off the floor. Let us know how far you got.

Tutorman · Jun 22, 2019

It amazes me how people can take one verse and make a whole set of doctrines around it and ignore the rest of Scripture

Newtheran · Jun 22, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Well, there's culture changes too. People in one time period or culture read a passage differently.

Which is precisely why if you divorce yourself from the history of the church and the writings of the church fathers and merely look at scripture through a modernist lens you can end up in some really strange places.

Newtheran · Jun 22, 2019

-57 said:
Jesus didn't say believe in me..and, oh, by the way, you need to be baptized in water.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
Matthew 28:19-20.

It's not go and make disciples, getting them to pray the sinner's prayer. It's not go and make disciples, getting them to respond to an altar call. It's not go and make disciples, getting them a baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from the Father and Son evidenced by the speaking of tongues...

-57 · Jun 23, 2019

Tutorman said:
It amazes me how people can take one verse and make a whole set of doctrines around it and ignore the rest of Scripture

Do you honestly thinks that there is only verse? Sheeze, wake up. There's a whole doctrine of OSAS built around many verse.
Just 2 post above your post presented another verse. Did you miss it?
Are you not sealed with the Holy Spirit? I thinks there is 3 or 4 verses that speak of that. You can start with Eph 4:30.
Phil 1:6 tells us Jesus will take us to completion. You say He might not.
Losing salvation would be a kin to being seperated from the love of God...Romans 8

...I could go on and on. But I don't like long post.

-57 · Jun 23, 2019

Newtheran said:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
Matthew 28:19-20.

It's not go and make disciples, getting them to pray the sinner's prayer. It's not go and make disciples, getting them to respond to an altar call. It's not go and make disciples, getting them a baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from the Father and Son evidenced by the speaking of tongues...

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

In my bible there is more than "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Why do you stop there? Why do you only use 1/2 of the verse?

The verse continues with "but whoever does not believe will be condemned."....NOT and he that is not baptized is unsaved.
The verse tells us something about belivers who are baptized...they are saved. It doesn't say believers who are not baptized are not saved.

Keep in mind the Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

There is also the opinion Jesus is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

From what I understand there are two other trustworthy manuscripts that don't include verses 9-20. Just saying.
Is it wise to base doctrine on those verses? Verse 18 says we can pick up serpents and drink poison.

Protomartyr Alban · Jun 23, 2019

You say John 3:16 is enough and that all we have to do is believe - but the brother of the Lord, St James, says in his epistle "you believe there is one God, good. Even the demons believe, and tremble" and goes on to say simply believing is not enough... but if you isolate John 3:16, then you must be accusing St James of the same things you are accusing us of. Jesus did say you need to be born again of water and the Spirit, alluding to the baptism he later instituted once his earthly ministry had been fulfilled.

-57 said:
But here's another problem....Jesus hung on the cross, paid the price in my place. It's called substitutionary atonement. Jesus also fulfilled the law I couldn't. Jesus also lived a sinless life in my place...and if baptism is a requirement Jesus was baptized by John in my place.

But according to St Paul, in order for these things to be applied to you, you have to be baptised into Christ to be baptised into his death and to share in his resurrection. You are isolating texts without taking the fullness of the scriptures into account. Are you reformed?

Protomartyr Alban · Jun 23, 2019

-57 said:
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

In my bible there is more than "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Why do you stop there? Why do you only use 1/2 of the verse?

The verse continues with "but whoever does not believe will be condemned."....NOT and he that is not baptized is unsaved.
The verse tells us something about belivers who are baptized...they are saved. It doesn't say believers who are not baptized are not saved.

Keep in mind the Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

Already addressed this here...

Protomartyr Alban said:
Why does the verse say "he that believes and is baptised will be saved"? You can be baptised, but because you do not believe you will still be damned. The verse does not, however, say "he that believes and is not baptised will be saved", but "he that believes and is baptised will be saved".

-57 said:
Do you honestly thinks that there is only verse? Sheeze, wake up. There's a whole doctrine of OSAS built around many verse.
Just 2 post above your post presented another verse. Did you miss it?
Are you not sealed with the Holy Spirit? I thinks there is 3 or 4 verses that speak of that. You can start with Eph 4:30.
Phil 1:6 tells us Jesus will take us to completion. You say He might not.
Losing salvation would be a kin to being seperated from the love of God...Romans 8

...I could go on and on. But I don't like long post.

I'm not going to get into the Reformed 'once saved always saved'/'perseverance/preservation of the saints', it's majorly off topic and this thread isn't even in the debate forum, which, according to the rules, means that this whole dialogue has been off topic (against the rules). I've tolerated it for your benefit in the hope a seed would be planted and the benefit of those who would use this resource and find further objections - but let's not drift off into other topics, baptism is the focus here.

Protomartyr Alban · Jun 23, 2019

-57 said:
There's a lot of things Jesus did in my place not mentioned in the bible.
Baptism in the early church was often a gutsy thing to do which was a demonstration to others to show you association with Christ death, burial and resurrection.

Where does the bible show it was a demonstration to others to show your association with these things? Who did the Ethiopian Eunuch, who was only with St Philip and the chariot driver, gutsily demonstrate his faith to?

-57 said:
I find it difficult to converse with someone who says John got it wrong as well as takes the term baptism out of context. Born of water is an example.

Secondly, you're hinging on a works based salvation as some argue that salvation is a "work".

If they are saying "St John got it wrong", then you are likewise saying "St Peter got it wrong", as well as St John and St Matthew, etc. Do you believe St John, or the Lord himself, is wrong in John 6 when he says his body is food and his blood is drink, and that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you?

My original post already explained that baptism is not a work of man, but the work of God, it is the Lord himself that baptises us, which is why Acts says people are baptised "in the name of the Lord Jesus", because it is in his stead and he works in it.

-57 said:
John says, I accept Jesus as my lord and savior....then slips on the wet steps and falls on the way up to the baptism pool. John hits his head and dies.

To bad for John. He didn't get that last check mark.

That isn't what we believe, and we don't believe salvation is a process of ticked boxes that we work for to incur some magical grace God is forced to give as a result.

-57 said:
I believe in baptism.
Baptism is symbolic. It represents our association with Christ Jesus in His death, burial and resurrection. It is a profession of our faith.

Where does the bible say baptism is symbolic and represents an association? Where does it say it is a profession of our faith? I used scripture to back up every one of my points, and I would like you to show me scripture to back up your own points, please.

--
Also - sorry for doing three consecutive posts - I didn't notice there were more responses.

Tutorman · Jun 23, 2019

-57 said:
...I could go on and on. But I don't like long post.

Nor should you argue in someone else house when the thread was for information about Orthodox and orthodox faith.

Protomartyr Alban · Jun 23, 2019

prodromos said:
With all due respect, you've just described your posts.
You are also showing very little respect. Perhaps you are unaware that this thread is in the Congregational forums where particular rules apply. You might like to reconsider the manner in which you are posting which is actually in flagrant disregard of those rules.
We're fine with people challenging our beliefs because most of us have arrived in Orthodoxy after very serious consideration and have every confidence in our faith. We allow a lot more leniency than you would experience in other congregational forums, but not everyone here has the same patience so don't be surprised when you have some of your posts reported. You are breaking the rules after all.

Protomartyr Alban said:
this thread isn't even in the debate forum, which, according to the rules, means that this whole dialogue has been off topic (against the rules). I've tolerated it for your benefit in the hope a seed would be planted and the benefit of those who would use this resource and find further objections - but let's not drift off into other topics, baptism is the focus here.

Tutorman said:
Nor should you argue in someone else house when the thread was for information about Orthodox and orthodox faith.

Just a reminder, -57. Please do try to be respectful

I'm happy to keep dialoguing, but I would like you to back up what you say with scripture instead of saying 'you're wrong' and simply state your opinion and reformed systematic theology.

-57 · Jun 24, 2019

Protomartyr Alban said:
You say John 3:16 is enough and that all we have to do is believe - but the brother of the Lord, St James, says in his epistle "you believe there is one God, good. Even the demons believe, and tremble" and goes on to say simply believing is not enough... but if you isolate John 3:16, then you must be accusing St James of the same things you are accusing us of. Jesus did say you need to be born again of water and the Spirit, alluding to the baptism he later instituted once his earthly ministry had been fulfilled.

But according to St Paul, in order for these things to be applied to you, you have to be baptised into Christ to be baptised into his death and to share in his resurrection. You are isolating texts without taking the fullness of the scriptures into account. Are you reformed?

Really? You're gonna use that on me? "even the demons believe"....

-57 · Jun 24, 2019

I'm one here.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 24, 2019

Newtheran said:
Which is precisely why if you divorce yourself from the history of the church and the writings of the church fathers and merely look at scripture through a modernist lens you can end up in some really strange places.

So we should all go back to being eastern orthodox? If everyone did that, I'd probably show up just to see what it's like for everyone to worship as one.

ArmyMatt · Jun 24, 2019

Michael Collum said:
So we should all go back to being eastern orthodox?

yes.

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