Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I really appreciate Ray Vander Laan's teaching. He's done a series titled, The Clash of Kingdoms, that does (IMO) an excellent job of describing the mission of the Kingdom of God. From the OT, God had told His people were to "be my witnesses; let your light shine; hallow my name; show in words and in action who God is and what He'd done".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxQmC8Akss8

....and also this article by Keith Mathison -----> (excerpt)
One of the most common questions asked by students of the Bible concerns the relationship between Israel and the church. We read the Old Testament, and it is evident that most of it concerns the story of Israel. From Jacob to the exile, the people of God is Israel, and Israel is the people of God. Despite the constant sin of king and people leading to the judgment of exile, the prophets look beyond this judgment with hope to a time of restoration for Israel. When we turn to the New Testament, the same story continues, and Israel is still in the picture. Jesus is described as the one who will be given “the throne of his father David” and the one who “will reign over the house of Jacob [Israel] forever” (Luke 1:32–33). He is presented as the One the prophets foresaw.

The first to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah are Israelites— Andrew, Peter, James, John. But in the Gospels, we also hear Jesus speak of building His church, and we see growing hostility between the leaders of Israel and Jesus. We hear Jesus speak of destroying the tenants of the vineyard and giving it to others (Luke 20:9–18). In the book of Acts, the spread of the gospel to the Samaritans and Gentiles leads to even more conflict with the religious leaders of Israel. So, is Israel cast aside and replaced by this new entity known as the “church”?

There are those who would say yes, but the answer is not that simple, for we also run across hints that God is not finished with the nation of Israel. At the end of His declaration of woes on the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus says, “You will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’” (Matt. 23:39). In the Olivet Discourse, He speaks of Jerusalem being trampled underfoot “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24). In Acts, Peter says to a Jewish audience: “Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago” (Acts 3:19—21). Finally, Paul says things about Israel that seem to preclude total rejection. Speaking of Israel, he writes, “I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!” (Rom. 11:1a).

In order to understand the relationship between Israel and the church as described in the New Testament, we will need to look at the question in the context of the different answers Christians have given over the years.The relationship between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament is better described in terms of an organic development rather than either separation or replacement. ~ The Church and Israel in the New Testament by Keith Mathison

It's a completely different framework than the framework that includes a PHYSICAL restoration (which is what the Jewish zealots were hoping and fighting for and expecting).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The true church? It depends who you think the true church was.
From the very beginning - those that had faith in the True God and glorified Him were the true church (the people of God). More from Keith Mathison's article:

Quote:
The relationship between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament is better described in terms of an organic development rather than either separation or replacement. During most of the Old Testament era, there were essentially three groups of people: the Gentile nations, national Israel, and true Israel (the faithful remnant). Although the nation of Israel was often involved in idolatry, apostasy, and rebellion, God always kept for Himself a faithful remnant—those who trusted in Him and who would not bow the knee to Baal (1 Kings 19:18). This remnant, this true Israel, included men such as David, Joash, Isaiah, and Daniel, as well as women such as Sarah, Deborah, and Hannah. There were those who were circumcised in the flesh and a smaller number who had their hearts circumcised as well. So, even in the Old Testament, not all were Israel who were descended from Israel (Rom. 9:6).

At the time of Jesus’ birth, the faithful remnant (true Israel) included believers such as Simeon and Anna (Luke 2:25–38). During Jesus’ adult ministry, true Israel was most visible in those Jewish disciples who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Those who rejected Jesus were not true Israel, regardless of their race. This included many of the scribes and Pharisees. Though they were physically Jews, they were not true Israel (Rom. 2:28–29). True Israel became defined by union with the true Israelite—Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16, 29).

On the day of Pentecost, the true Israel, Jewish believers in Jesus, was taken by the Holy Spirit and formed into the nucleus of the New Testament church (Acts 2). The Holy Spirit was poured out on the true Israel, and the same men and women who were part of this true Israel were now the true new covenant church. Soon after, Gentiles began to become a part of this small group.

This is an extremely important point to grasp because it explains why there is so much confusion regarding the relationship between the church and Israel. The answer depends on whether we are talking about national Israel or true Israel. The church is distinct from national Israel, just as the true Israel in the Old Testament was distinct from national Israel even while being part of national Israel. The remnant group was part of the whole but could also be distinguished from the whole by its faith.

However, if we are talking about true Israel, there really is no distinction. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the true church on the day of Pentecost. Here the analogy of the olive tree that Paul uses in Romans 11 is instructive. The tree represents the covenant people of God—Israel. Paul compares unbelieving Israel to branches that have been broken off from the olive tree (v. 17a). Believing Gentiles are compared to branches from a wild olive tree that have been grafted in to the cultivated olive tree (vv. 17b–19). The important point to notice is that God does not cut the old tree down and plant a new one (replacement theology). Neither does God plant a second new tree alongside the old tree and then graft branches from the old tree into the new tree (traditional dispensationalism). Instead, the same tree exists across the divide between Old and New Testaments. That which remains after the dead branches are removed is the true Israel. Gentile believers are now grafted into this already existing old tree (true Israel/the true church). There is only one good olive tree, and the same olive tree exists across the covenantal divide. ~ The Church and Israel in the New Testament by Keith Mathison
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying the disciples rejected Jesus (and also all the believers - who happened to be Jewish - at Pentecost)? I just want to clarify your use of "they".

mkgal1,

1. The nation as a whole rejected Jesus.

2. John 6 shows Peter spoke up for the disciples when Jesus said will you go away like the other 70. Peter said where will we go for only you have the eternal words of life.
The disciples except Judas stuck with Jesus.
Israel was in a full theocracy with God and their had to be national repentance to come back into covenant with God in order to rule and reign in the KoH and in order for them to be blessed fully.
Remember Chronicles said, if my people who are called by my name I will humble their hearts and heal their land. Also Exodus explains that if Israel obeyed the covenants they would be healed of all their diseases etc.

4. Israel was under a full theocracy under God alone governmentally speaking. They answered only to God except when they were being chastised in slavery when oppressed by the nations where God sent them to captivity.

5. America is a personal and corporate theocracy but we are under man’s rule not just God’s despite the fact that God designed human governments which would be another subject.

6. There were at least 120 Jews in the upper room that accepted the New Covenant before the Day of Pentecost.
I’m sure there were probably more out of the 500 brethren that witnessed the resurrection.
Most of the leaders and the Jews who had not believed in Messiah to forgive their sins would have been those that rejected Jesus in those days. They were looking for the physical kingdom reign but didn’t repent. They missed the suffering suffering Isaiah 53 and were looking for a conquering Messiah alone.
The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are unconditional covenants but can only be entered in by the condition of obedience. Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
jerry kelso said:
The disciples asked Jesus if he would restore the Kingdom in Acts 1:6-7. He said it wasn’t for them to know and he didn’t know. Only the Father knew.
This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him
You're making a presumption that Jesus was offering a physical kingdom - and since you don't SEE a physical kingdom, you're seeming to further assume that this was rejected (if I am understanding you correctly).

Acts 1 (in my belief) IS a story of the restoration of the People of God (Israel) that was foretold by the prophets - but, as you recognize, it's NOT been restored in a PHYSICAL manifestation.


Acts 1:4–6; Jesus showed Himself alive for 40 days, teaching His disciples about the kingdom. Nothing could more clearly demonstrate that Luke was about to open up a discussion of the fulfillment of Israel’s promises than this. During His ministry, Jesus focused on the promises of Israel: He came to “seek and to save the lost,” a referent to the lost of Israel.

The kingdom was the heart and core of God’s promises to Israel (2 Samuel 7:13-14). It was the focus of the prophets of Israel (Isaiah 2-4; Ezekiel 37, etc.). Thus, Acts 1:4 “set the tone” for the rest of the book. The kingdom message is continued in Acts 8, 14, 19, 20, and 28 as well. This makes it clear that Luke never abandons the subject. Acts is about the hope of Israel. While most commentators claim that the disciples still misunderstood Jesus and the kingdom, this is patently false. Jesus had opened the minds of His disciples to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:25-27). Thus, the disciples were simply asking about the time of the fulfillment of what Jesus had been instructing them about. Jesus did not chide the disciples for their “ignorance” or failure to understand. Instead, He told them to “go into the city and wait” for the promise of the Spirit. The promise of the Spirit was itself an OT promise to Israel and for Israel, to raise her from the dead, restore her to God’s presence, and result in the offer of salvation to the nations (Isaiah 32;49; Ezekiel 37; Joel 2-3). ~ Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 1)


ETA:
Isaiah 32 - A Righteous King will rule
Isaiah 49 - The Servant Speaks up
Ezekiel 37 - Valley of Dry Bones
Joel 2-3 - The Day of the Lord


“This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel” – Acts 2:15ff
The outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost was in fulfillment of Acts 1, and even more importantly, of Joel 2:28-32. Peter’s words leave no room for controversy. The events of that day were what Joel predicted: “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” Words could not be clearer, more emphatic, or more undeniable. Joel foretold the consummative last days, the coming of the Day of the Lord, the salvation of the remnant and the calling of the nations. It is one of the key OT prophecies, and inextricably tied to the restoration of Israel. But, Joel was not alone in predicting the outpouring of the Spirit in the last days, for the restoration of Israel. Isaiah 32 and Ezekiel 37 and Micah 7 are but a few of the significant OT prophecies of the outpouring of the Spirit in the last days.

According to Ezekiel 37:11-14, the Spirit would be poured out to raise Israel from the dead. Thus for Peter to declare, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel” cannot properly be construed as anything but a declaration that the restoration of Israel was taking place. Jesus often shocked and offended His contemporaries with His identification of the true Israel, and the nature of the restoration of Israel under His rule. Likewise, Peter’s declaration of the fulfillment of Joel and the other Spirit / Restoration promises was a radical departure from what they thought was to happen in the last days work of the Spirit. But this revolutionary identification of the true Israel and the fulfillment of Israel’s promises was just beginning in Luke’s account. There was much, much more to come. ~ Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 1)
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
jgr,

1. The restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven reign is all through the Old Testament.
I have already explained the beginning to the end about the 1000 years millennial kingdom.

2. The times and seasons refer to the Day of the Lord and the specific Day of the Lord known as the Second advent which will be at Armageddon Revelation 16:16 is tied to 2 Thessalonians 5:1-2, the beginning of the Day of the Lord not 2 Peter 3:7-10 which is at the end of the Day of the Lord and the Beginning of the Day of God when the Son gives the kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

3. 2 Peter 3:10 is the renovation on the actual Day of the Lord which comes like a thief 2 Peter 3:7-10.
The Day of the Lord will end after the 1000 years, the final rebellion, and will be during the Great White Throne Judgement.

4. The Heaven’s (atmospheric Heaven’s and the earth will be renovated by fire. This is purification by fire of the physical state, not annihilation of the planet.
The works are burned up are all the basic present world system of evil spirits, sinful and fallen nature, disease, germs, corruptions and all elements by which men corrupt themselves. 2 Peter 3:11-12.
The Greek word is parerchomai, translated pass away and doesn’t mean to terminate out of existence or annihilation.
It means to pass from one condition of existence to another.
The Genesis 1:2 flood didn’t put the earth out of existence units watery bath and neither will the fire of purification.

5. Peter divides the history of the earth into 3 periods.
The period before it was made form and without void Genesis 1:1. He called it the world that then was in 2 Peter 5-6; the present world which he calls the Heaven’s and the earth which are now and the New Heaven and the New Earth which is yet future 2 Peter 3:5-7,13; Dispensational Truth Clarence Larkin Parenthetical Dispensation between the millennium and the New Earth pg. 145.

6. The true church? It depends who you think the true church was. Jerry Kelso

jerry,

I've cited Scripture which clarifies the meaning of the use of "times and/or seasons", and demonstrating that it bears no relationship to a restored physical kingdom.

It you can cite Scripture incorporating the words "times, seasons" that disproves what I've cited, feel free to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
mkgal1,

1. The nation as a whole rejected Jesus.

2. John 6 shows Peter spoke up for the disciples when Jesus said will you go away like the other 70. Peter said where will we go for only you have the eternal words of life.
The disciples except Judas stuck with Jesus.
Israel was in a full theocracy with God and their had to be national repentance to come back into covenant with God in order to rule and reign in the KoH and in order for them to be blessed fully.
Remember Chronicles said, if my people who are called by my name I will humble their hearts and heal their land. Also Exodus explains that if Israel obeyed the covenants they would be healed of all their diseases etc.

4. Israel was under a full theocracy under God alone governmentally speaking. They answered only to God except when they were being chastised in slavery when oppressed by the nations where God sent them to captivity.

5. America is a personal and corporate theocracy but we are under man’s rule not just God’s despite the fact that God designed human governments which would be another subject.

6. There were at least 120 Jews in the upper room that accepted the New Covenant before the Day of Pentecost.
I’m sure there were probably more out of the 500 brethren that witnessed the resurrection.
Most of the leaders and the Jews who had not believed in Messiah to forgive their sins would have been those that rejected Jesus in those days. They were looking for the physical kingdom reign but didn’t repent. They missed the suffering suffering Isaiah 53 and were looking for a conquering Messiah alone.
The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are unconditional covenants but can only be entered in by the condition of obedience. Jerry Kelso

I'm seeing what ebedmelech meant by "going in circles". I had asked this:

mkgal said:
Are you saying the disciples rejected Jesus (and also all the believers - who happened to be Jewish - at Pentecost)? I just want to clarify your use of "they"

....so with all this (your post above) is that a "yes"? You're positing that the disciples (as well as all the believers at Pentecost) failed to live up to the covenant and were thus "rejecting Jesus"? Is that your argument? I'd like either a "yes" or "no" with just a simple thesis statement (not a long and wordy ramble - this is new material for me, so I hope you can bear with me).

Maybe we can just stick with this statement of yours:

Jerry Kelso said:
The disciples asked Jesus if he would restore the Kingdom in Acts 1:6-7. He said it wasn’t for them to know and he didn’t know. Only the Father knew.
This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him. Matthew 4:17 and Matthew 23:37-39.
This also shows they were not offered the Kingdom on the Day of Pentecost.

.....you're going to have to offer more support than you already have. I don't see ANY support for either a rejection OR an offer of a PHYSICAL kingdom here.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
jerry kelso said:
The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are unconditional covenants but can only be entered in by the condition of obedience. Jerry Kelso
That would be a "condition" then.

But I don't believe that's where this theology goes off track - I think it takes a detour when defining the "People of God" (True Israel).....which included - from the beginning - those that glorified God - the "set apart ones" (it was their loyalty and devotion to one True God that set them apart).
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You totally misunderstand the context of Genesis 17:12 and the whole context of what was to be restored in this creation.

God's covenant with Abraham in Genesis - Abraham obeyed God.

Still quoting from the same article about the Book of Acts:

You Are My Witnesses– The Creation (Re-Creation) of Israel

After promising the Spirit to the disciples, Jesus immediately told them they would be His witnesses. This is a direct echo of Isaiah 43:10 and this, like Jesus’ 40 day instructions concerning the kingdom, is strongly suggestive that the restoration of Israel, an Israel now identified by her connection to Jesus, but Israel nonetheless, was now taking place. Isaiah 43 foretold the creation of a new people that would be YHVH’s witnesses to the nations. And now in Acts 1 we find the 12 apostles, representing the righteous remnant, being given the commission to be His witnesses to the nations.

The radical and revolutionary nature of what Isaiah 43 foretold, and what was happening in Acts, is revealed when we consider that YHVH called on Israel to not remember the former things, but to look to the “New Thing” that He would do (43:18). What is so astounding is that YHVH, in context, called on Israel to forget the first exodus! That event was the single most normative and formative event in all of Israel’s history, and yet God said the time was coming when they would need to forget that historic event and look to the greater “New Thing” that He would do. Given the indisputable fact that Acts is built around the “Second Exodus” motif, it is clear that the “New Thing” promised by YHVH in Isaiah 43 was now taking place, which meant not only that Israel was being “restored,” but that she was to forget her first beginnings and look to the last. ~ Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 1)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
God's covenant with Abraham in Genesis - Abraham obeyed God.

Still quoting from the same article about the Book of Acts:

You Are My Witnesses– The Creation (Re-Creation) of Israel

After promising the Spirit to the disciples, Jesus immediately told them they would be His witnesses. This is a direct echo of Isaiah 43:10 and this, like Jesus’ 40 day instructions concerning the kingdom, is strongly suggestive that the restoration of Israel, an Israel now identified by her connection to Jesus, but Israel nonetheless, was now taking place. Isaiah 43 foretold the creation of a new people that would be YHVH’s witnesses to the nations. And now in Acts 1 we find the 12 apostles, representing the righteous remnant, being given the commission to be His witnesses to the nations.

The radical and revolutionary nature of what Isaiah 43 foretold, and what was happening in Acts, is revealed when we consider that YHVH called on Israel to not remember the former things, but to look to the “New Thing” that He would do (43:18). What is so astounding is that YHVH, in context, called on Israel to forget the first exodus! That event was the single most normative and formative event in all of Israel’s history, and yet God said the time was coming when they would need to forget that historic event and look to the greater “New Thing” that He would do. Given the indisputable fact that Acts is built around the “Second Exodus” motif, it is clear that the “New Thing” promised by YHVH in Isaiah 43 was now taking place, which meant not only that Israel was being “restored,” but that she was to forget her first beginnings and look to the last. ~ Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 1)

mkgal1,

1. Israel was not being restored to the kingdom of Heaven reign in the early church if that is what you are suggesting.
Acts 1:6-7 proves that to be true.

2. Peter knew the prophecies of Joel but they were not fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. If they were the physical land would have had to blossom read Joel 2.
Peter said this s that which was spoken not that it was being fulfilled. He knew the signs to accompany the kingdom and the restitution of all things etc.
His mind still was geared to the Kingdom message even in his own books. Once again gradual revelation must be understood and how it unfolds.

3. The New Covenant had come and they preached it much from the point of the historical fact that the Jews rejected Jesus and had him killed as in Peter’s address on the DOP.
Acts 4:2 shows they did teach the death and resurrection and were always getting into trouble because of it.
4. There is a true Israel of believers just like there is a true church of believers.
When it comes to salvation everyone is a true believer because they believe by faith and are saved.
In this, Romans 2:28-29 is true that both Jew and Gentile that is saved can be be considered a spiritual Jew.
However, the context of Romans 2 is that the Jews were being hypocrites and were not real spiritual Jews. Now if the gentiles, who had no covenant of the Mosaic law, if they kept it they would be considered a spiritual Jew. God is no respect of persons in the Old or New Testaments.
The point was the same as in Ezekiel 18 that the physical Jew was not a true spiritual Jew unless he was obedient to the law and saved.
The New Covenant is no different.
The problem is that there is a whole doctrine built on the last 2 verses of chapter 2, that says Israel’s earthly calling in the KoH reign on earth is no longer valid apart from the church. This is not true.

5. Israel must go through Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7; 12:1; Matthew 24:21, Revelation 12.

6. Israel must be purified by Jacob’s trouble Daniel 9:24 as a part of Daniel’s 70 weeks. The church is not.
The church is being purified now and being trained for rulership training in the KoH reign 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Timothy 2:12.

7. Both Israel the nation and the Church age saints will rule and reign.
Israel will rule and reign at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:20;16-28.
Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14 is allabout the earthy Mt. Zion and the nations having to go to Jerusalem to attend the feasts etc.
The church will be Kings, Priests and rulers throughout the Kingdom. Revelation 5:9-10.

8. The church age saints will be in rulership position on earth and in Heaven
Colossians 1:16

9. Just because the nation of Israel and the church age saints will have different purposes in the KoH through different ruler ship positions doesn’t mean they are not one in the Lord or that one is being hipped over the other or considered inferior of the other etc. ic compleridiculous. Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Israel was not being restored to the kingdom of Heaven reign in the early church if that is what you are suggesting.
Acts 1:6-7 proves that to be true.
No.....Acts 1:6-7 does NOT "prove that to be true" but you're welcome to offer SOME support of that statement. You seem to be denying the fulfillment of Scripture because it doesn't fit YOUR expectations of a physical kingdom (that was the mistake of the religious zealots who missed their Messiah at His first advent).

I'm still waiting on any support for this statement as well:

Jerry Kelso said:
The disciples asked Jesus if he would restore the Kingdom in Acts 1:6-7. He said it wasn’t for them to know and he didn’t know. Only the Father knew.
This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him. Matthew 4:17 and Matthew 23:37-39.
This also shows they were not offered the Kingdom on the Day of Pentecost.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Peter knew the prophecies of Joel but they were not fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.
If Pentecost wasn't a fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel 2 - then, to you, what was Pentecost? In your theological belief - was there ANY significance?
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The traditional liturgical churches believe that Joel 2-3 represents the outpouring of the Spirit as the Creation of a Nation of Prophets Living in a New Eden. It's a "new thing" but something that was planned (and prophesied) from the very beginning.

Acts 2:14-22 ~
Peter Addresses the Crowd
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

16 No, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’


22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. ~
https://www.biblestudytools.com/acts/2.html

The importance of this association is strengthened further when one sees that Joel is developing Numbers 11:16-30 where Moses expresses his longing for Yahweh to make all the people prophets and put His spirit upon them.

Numbers 11:29 ~ But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”

Acts 2:36-41 ~
"Therefore, let all Israel know beyond question that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
When the crowd heard this, they were deeply troubled. They said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
Peter replied, "Change your hearts and lives. Each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise is for you, your children, and for all who are far away—as many as the Lord our God invites."
With many other words he testified to them and encouraged them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

Those who accepted Peter's message were baptized. God brought about three thousand people into the community on that day. ~ Acts 2 - CEB Bible - When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I'm seeing what ebedmelech meant by "going in circles". I had asked this:



....so with all this (your post above) is that a "yes"? You're positing that the disciples (as well as all the believers at Pentecost) failed to live up to the covenant and were thus "rejecting Jesus"? Is that your argument? I'd like either a "yes" or "no" with just a simple thesis statement (not a long and wordy ramble - this is new material for me, so I hope you can bear with me).

Maybe we can just stick with this statement of yours:



.....you're going to have to offer more support than you already have. I don't see ANY support for either a rejection OR an offer of a PHYSICAL kingdom here.

mkgal1,

What do you think he meant by going in circles?
Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KoH is at hand. You don’t think this proclamation was an offer?
Matthew 23:37-39; Kesus desire to gather Israel back such as a hen to her little ones and the temple prophesied to be destroyed which happened in 70 A.D.; you don’t call this rejection by the nation of Israel. Peter and Stephen both in the book of Acts told about the nation rejecting Jesus message and where it got them, which was the postponement of the KoH reign.

2. Failed to live every joy and tittle of the law is a most likely.
There were Jews that lived all 630 laws at different times such as Zachariah and Elizabeth and Paul despite Paul not realizing killing the Christians in his day was wrong. He thought he was doing God’s service.
There were also different kind of trespassing offerings for everyday failures among other kinds.
So not being perfect to the law didn’t mean those were not saved.
We miss the mark but does that mean we are not saved? Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What do you think he meant by going in circles?
I thought ebedmelech explained what he meant really well when he posted (in #674) that you move on to other points instead of answering direct questions (my paraphrase).

You had posted that: "This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him." And that "It was never prophesied that the Jews would accept Christ and they did’t" (post #670) - but you seem to dodge the question when I mention that the disciples and the entire early church was made up of Jews. Are you arguing that they (Jews) still "failed" because they were a part of a group that YOU believe ALL needed to obey the conditions of the old covenant?
Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KoH is at hand. You don’t think this proclamation was an offer?
Yes, I do see that as an offer........but do you NOT see that the offer was accepted (and confirmed) in Acts 2 and in the entire formation of the early church?

jerry kelso said:
Matthew 23:37-39; Kesus desire to gather Israel back such as a hen to her little ones and the temple prophesied to be destroyed which happened in 70 A.D.; you don’t call this rejection by the nation of Israel. Peter and Stephen both in the book of Acts told about the nation rejecting Jesus message and where it got them, which was the postponement of the KoH reign.

2. Failed to live every joy and tittle of the law is a most likely.
There were Jews that lived all 630 laws at different times such as Zachariah and Elizabeth and Paul despite Paul not realizing killing the Christians in his day was wrong. He thought he was doing God’s service.
There were also different kind of trespassing offerings for everyday failures among other kinds.
So not being perfect to the law didn’t mean those were not saved.
We miss the mark but does that mean we are not saved? Jerry Kelso
You are conflating the faithful true remnant and the disbelieving Jews.
 
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
If Pentecost wasn't a fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel 2 - then, to you, what was Pentecost? In your theological belief - was there ANY significance?

mkgal1,

1. This prophecy was made by Jesus John 14:16-17: And I will pray to the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you forever.
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not either knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.
V26 agrees with the sending the Holy Spirit in Jesus name.
Acts 1:4; Jesus commanded the apostles v2; not to depart Jerusalem but wait for the promise of the Father, which, Jesus said ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

2. Peter’s statement and the actual prophecy of Joel was different. There had to signs and wonders before the great and terrible day of a he Lord comes then the Lord would pour out his Spirit on Israel.
Peter said, this is that which was spoken not this is that which was fulfilled.
Peter knew the signs of the restoration and he saw a similarity.
Also, the restoration of the land and animal life didn’t happen either.
Also, the children of Israel were not gathered out of the nations at Pentecost, but were actually being scattered from Palestine throughout the entire world then known.
So it was not a complete fulfillment of Joel, though the Spirit was poured out.

3. You have to understand the restoration of Israel is in conjunction with the Spirit being poured out on Israel in the tribulation and with the restoration of the KoH reign Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Peter’s statement and the actual prophecy of Joel was different. There had to signs and wonders before the great and terrible day of a he Lord comes then the Lord would pour out his Spirit on Israel.
Peter said, this is that which was spoken not this is that which was fulfilled.
Peter knew the signs of the restoration and he saw a similarity.
Also, the restoration of the land and animal life didn’t happen either.
Also, the children of Israel were not gathered out of the nations at Pentecost, but were actually being scattered from Palestine throughout the entire world then known.
So it was not a complete fulfillment of Joel, though the Spirit was poured out.
I agree that it was not a complete fulfillment of all that was written in Joel.

In Acts 4-5 we see the selling of land. The making way of a new eden/new city was a process.

Hebrews 13:14 ~ For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

Quoting from linked article:
It is almost impossible to over-emphasize the importance of the land to the Jews. It was their inheritance from YHVH Himself. When the land was allotted to the 12 tribes (Joshua 13ff) the Lord instructed Israel: ‘The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me” (Leviticus 25:23). While it was permissible for Israelites to temporarily sell their land, the Jubilee Laws provided that ownership of the land would revert to the original tribal owners in the Jubilee years.

Yet, in Acts 4-5 we find the selling of the land by the Jewish Christians. There is no suggestion that they intended to redeem the land at a later date (Cf. Jeremiah 32). The record seems to indicate that they were simply selling their land, permanently.
In light of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, and the warnings in Acts 2-4, of impending judgment on Jerusalem and Israel, the full significance of this comes to the forefront. Those early Christians knew that the value of Jerusalem real estate was going to go to zero! They now were beginning to realize, as Hebrews would later declare: “We have here no abiding city, but, look for one that is about to come” (Hebrews 13:14). ~ Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 2)
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This prophecy was made by Jesus John 14:16-17:
I agree - Jesus was pointing also to the gift of the Holy Spirit which was to come (when Jesus stated that).....but why did Peter quote Joel and say, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel(Acts 2:15) if he wasn't referring to - at least PART of - the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy? What would be Peter's reason to include that (in your mind)?

Acts 2:1-22 ~
1 When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together in one place.
2 Suddenly a sound from heaven like the howling of a fierce wind filled the entire house where they were sitting.
3 They saw what seemed to be individual flames of fire alighting on each one of them.
4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them to speak.
5 There were pious Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem.
6When they heard this sound, a crowd gathered. They were mystified because everyone heard them speaking in their native languages.
7 They were surprised and amazed, saying, "Look, aren't all the people who are speaking Galileans, every one of them?
8 How then can each of us hear them speaking in our native language?
9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; as well as residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the regions of Libya bordering Cyrene; and visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism),
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the mighty works of God in our own languages!"
12 They were all surprised and bewildered. Some asked each other, "What does this mean?"
13 Others jeered at them, saying, "They're full of new wine!"
14 Peter stood with the other eleven apostles. He raised his voice and declared, “Judeans and everyone living in Jerusalem! Know this! Listen carefully to my words!

15 These people aren't drunk, as you suspect; after all, it's only nine o'clock in the morning!
16 Rather, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:

17In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young will see visions. Your elders will dream dreams.
18 Even upon my servants, men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will cause wonders to occur in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and a cloud of smoke.
20 The sun will be changed into darkness, and the moon will be changed into blood, before the great and spectacular day of the Lord comes.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
.
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to these words! Jesus the Nazarene was a man whose credentials God proved to you through miracles, wonders, and signs, which God performed through him among you. You yourselves know this. ~ Acts 2 - CEB Bible - When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together...

Joel 2:27-32 ~ You will know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God—no other exists; never again will my people be put to shame.
28 After that
I will pour out my spirit upon everyone; your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions.
29 In those days, I will also pour out my spirit on the male and female slaves.
30 I will give signs in the heavens and on the earth—blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood before the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

32 But everyone who calls on the LORD's name will be saved. ~ Joel 2 - CEB Bible - Blow the horn in Zion; give a shout on my holy...

Notice what's left out in Peter's sermon "for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be security, as the LORD has promised; and in Jerusalem, the LORD will summon those who survive." There was no longer security in the earthly city of Jerusalem.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I thought ebedmelech explained what he meant really well when he posted (in #674) that you move on to other points instead of answering direct questions (my paraphrase).

You had posted that: "This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him." And that "It was never prophesied that the Jews would accept Christ and they did’t" (post #670) - but you seem to dodge the question when I mention that the disciples and the entire early church was made up of Jews. Are you arguing that they (Jews) still "failed" because they were a part of a group that YOU believe ALL needed to obey the conditions of the old covenant?

Yes, I do see that as an offer........but do you NOT see that the offer was accepted (and confirmed) in Acts 2 and in the entire formation of the early church?


You are conflating the faithful true remnant and the disbelieving Jews.

mkgal1,

1. Ebedlemech does not understand about proper context and how to put the big picture together.
For example, the last two verses of Romans 2 by itself is why he believes that this is the whole context about being a spiritual Jew, when in fact it starts at verse 17.
I don’t disagree with him about a New Covenant Jew or Gentile being a spiritual Jew.
He takes it further like many others who use those two verses that the church has taken the place of the gifts and callings in the KoH reign.
This whole context is not the extreme doctrine of what they purport about being a spiritual Jew.
If I just heard part of a conversation of statements you made and I go to seed on those points that would not be completely true and take you out of context wouldn’t you think this unfair.?

2. I answered about your concern about the Jews not keeping the law of Moses perfectly in point 2 of post 693.
I am also you probably didn’t read posts before on the beginning of the KoH and the KoG starting in the Garden of Eden and then Jesus mission to restore these kingdoms and Israel rejected Jesus and the third time this same basic scenario will happen is before the Day of the Lord when Israel will receive the Messiah as their Savior and he will forgive their sins forever under the New Covenant.
These three points should be simple to follow and understand.
The problem is when one puts more details in. Also, many try to understand another position by their own hermeneutics and that is a dead end road.
I know most of the other views and their hermeneutics.

3. Post 670 is to jgr.
Post 672 was to you and I answered that the Jews left over from Jesus ministry and prosecuted from Rome were the ones at the DOP.
This means that the early church was Jews.

4. I have already said that the Jewish nation rejected Jesus. They were looking a conquering Messiah to get out from under Roman oppression and not the suffering Savior who was to save them from their sins. Read Isaiah 53.
They cannot be rulers in the KoH if they don’t first meet the condition of repentance. All the nation didn’t repent.
The covenants of Abraham and David are with the whole nation of Israel not the remnant.
The bulk of the nation not only rejected Jesus they wanted him crucified and wanted Barabbas to be released.

5. Acts 2 not all the Jewish nation believed. They were always arguing about the law and trying to figure out how what they knew under the laws of Moses fit into the New Covenant.
Paul finally got tired of it and left in Acts 28 and started his gentile ministry.
In 70 A.D. Jesus prediction of the temple and the Jews destruction came true fulfilling Matthew 24:1-2.

6. I am not conflating the believing remnant and the unbelieving Jew.
This argument is used to prove that the KoH was accepted and fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34 because the New Covenant had occurred at the cross.
If this was true then the KoH reign would have started the millennial kingdom and the Jews would be at the head of the nations and Christ would be on the throne including David etc.
That period of time was over 1000 years and we would already be in the perfect state Revelation 21:1-2. Do you understand this at all.

7. Last, In the tribulation Zechariah 13:9 2/3 of the unbelieving Jews will be cut off.
In Revelation 12:17 shows the remnant of Israel’s seed will be believers and they will be gathered from the four corners of the Heaven which is around the earth Matthew 24:31.
In verse 13-15 the sun clothed woman who is Israel goes into the wilderness to be preserved for Jacob’s trouble 3.5 years.
The Jewish remnant and those preserved in the wilderness and David as King over Israel Ezekiel 36:20 and Abraham Matthew 19:28 will be the whole nation of Israel.
Romans 11:26: and so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come come out of Sion (Heavenly Sion not the earthly Mt. Zion) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
V 27; For this is my covenant when I shall take away their sins.
The remnant are believers in the tribulation.
If the covenant is taking away sins it seem to imply those in the wilderness are not necessarily saved before Christ comes back but he will save them before fulfilling their Kingdom Covenants.
Revelation 1:7; every eye shall see them including those who pierced him which were the Jewish nation. The kindreds of the earth will wail because of him. Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
No.....Acts 1:6-7 does NOT "prove that to be true" but you're welcome to offer SOME support of that statement. You seem to be denying the fulfillment of Scripture because it doesn't fit YOUR expectations of a physical kingdom (that was the mistake of the religious zealots who missed their Messiah at His first advent).

I'm still waiting on any support for this statement as well:


mkgal1,

1. Acts 1:6-7 was before the Day of Pentecost and was what Jesus offered the physical kingdom during his ministry only to the Jews Matthew 10:6-7.
I’ve already explained why Peter said about what and why he mentioned Joel.
So you think you can refute the scriptures about the Davidic Covenant concerning the physical kingdom for the Jews that says it is eternal? Feel free to try.
They are 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; 2 Samuel 7:13-16, Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28. I’ll stop here and let you respond on these scriptures.

2. I already said the religious leaders and zealots and the bulk of the nation
we’re looking for the physical kingdom reign and a warrior king.
They didn’t want to be saved from theirs sins.
If they would have received Christ along with all other believers they would have received the Kingdom.
You can disagree but you haven’t shown any scriptures to prove your position. Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jerry kelso

Food For Thought
Mar 13, 2013
4,845
238
✟104,142.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The traditional liturgical churches believe that Joel 2-3 represents the outpouring of the Spirit as the Creation of a Nation of Prophets Living in a New Eden. It's a "new thing" but something that was planned (and prophesied) from the very beginning.

Acts 2:14-22 ~
Peter Addresses the Crowd
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

16 No, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’


22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. ~
https://www.biblestudytools.com/acts/2.html

The importance of this association is strengthened further when one sees that Joel is developing Numbers 11:16-30 where Moses expresses his longing for Yahweh to make all the people prophets and put His spirit upon them.

Numbers 11:29 ~ But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”

Acts 2:36-41 ~
"Therefore, let all Israel know beyond question that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
When the crowd heard this, they were deeply troubled. They said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
Peter replied, "Change your hearts and lives. Each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise is for you, your children, and for all who are far away—as many as the Lord our God invites."
With many other words he testified to them and encouraged them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

Those who accepted Peter's message were baptized. God brought about three thousand people into the community on that day. ~ Acts 2 - CEB Bible - When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together...

mkgal1,

1. Numbers is an immediate context back in the days of Moses and has no prophetic association to Joel. That is conjecture, opinion and bad hermeneutics just because they think it sounds alike.

2. 3000 being baptized hasn’t anything to do with the Jewish nation accepted the KoH offer or the New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.
Yes they were Jews and many believed and received the NC and many did not.
That still has nothing to do with fulfilling Jeremiah and Hebrews,
The church began a whole new dispensation of grace that was a separate program than the Jews program with the KoH and the KoG reign on earth.
The body of Christ is different than the earthly calling of Israel.
Israel is blind right now and will be until the fullness of the gentiles be come in Romans 11:25.
The fullness of the gentiles has to be at Armageddon when Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world because this is at Armageddon when he delivers Israel v 26.
This is when the kingdom program will resume. Jerry Kelso
 
Upvote 0