Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
Show me in scripture where God covered Eve's bottom and not her top. Bible is silent on many things. That alone does not legitimize them.

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I think you just made a great case against your own point. There are some things I don't want to get used to, and some pleasures I don't want to stop enjoying.

I believe your preference to not habituate is unfair; women should be able to cool themselves on hot days, and not prevented from doing so just because you want to maximize your sexual excitability.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
Show me in scripture where God covered Eve's bottom and not her top. Bible is silent on many things. That alone does not legitimize them.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Adam and Eve covered themselves with aprons to cover their nakedness. In this act, they covered their nakedness.. Let me repeat: they were ashamed of their nakedness, so they covered themselves with aprons.

14 verses later, God further covered them; as mentioned above, this was not to cover their nakedness (that was already done), but to provide other benefits such as protection from the now-cursed world.

section9+1 · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
The lips of a woman's face are also used in sexual affairs, and they're always publicly displayed. They're even enhanced, via red lipstick (think for a moment of what this mimics). And although they're visually shared with other men, they're never to be sexually shared (e.g. "embraced," as in proverbs.)

It will all eventually come to pass. Anything and everything can be ultimately justified. Scripture will always be conformed into whatever righteousness suits you. It's written that way on purpose so that men are without excuse. It never ends until God's cup of wrath finally fills. What's distressing is that Christians are becoming more and more instrumental in the filling. All things are justifiable and righteousness is always achievable on your own terms regardless of what God says. Don't believe it, just ask the gays.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
It will all eventually come to pass. Anything and everything can be ultimately justified. Scripture will always be conformed into whatever righteousness suits you. It's written that way on purpose so that men are without excuse. It never ends until God's cup of wrath finally fills. What's distressing is that Christians are becoming more and more instrumental in the filling. All things are justifiable and righteousness is always achievable on your own terms regardless of what God says. Don't believe it, just ask the gays.

What's your justification for drawing the line where you do, wherever that is? I suggested that the lips of the face are sexually enticing. Do you believe Burqas are required? If not, what must be covered? And, on what basis do you draw the line where you do?

It used to be scandalous, in our country, to expose the ankle. Do you believe that standard is excessive? If so, why?..

Google: "ethnocentrism," which is an extremely similar.

section9+1 · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Adam and Eve covered themselves with aprons to cover their nakedness. In this act, they covered their nakedness.. Let me repeat: they were ashamed of their nakedness, so they covered themselves with aprons.

14 verses later, God further covered them; as mentioned above, this was not to cover their nakedness (that was already done), but to provide other benefits such as protection from the now-cursed world.

My bible says nothing of aprons.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
It will all eventually come to pass. Anything and everything can be ultimately justified. Scripture will always be conformed into whatever righteousness suits you. It's written that way on purpose so that men are without excuse. It never ends until God's cup of wrath finally fills. What's distressing is that Christians are becoming more and more instrumental in the filling. All things are justifiable and righteousness is always achievable on your own terms regardless of what God says. Don't believe it, just ask the gays.

Sorry, two responses to you; I forgot about this (source unknown):

I would suggest reading the book "Proncess", which was written be a Saudi princess under a pseudonym. Up until she came of age to wear a burka men didn't notice her. When it was time to wear one, the men began raking her with their eyes and staring, imagining what was underneath.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
My bible says nothing of aprons.

Image below, from Strong's concordance.

Kenny'sID · Jun 21, 2019

Archivist said:
Contrary to what some have said, there is nothing in Scripture that says that women should not go topless.

Nor does the bible say any of us should not go bottomless, making your point, pointless.

section9+1 · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
What's your justification for drawing the line where you do, wherever that is? I suggested that the lips of the face are sexually enticing. Do you believe Burqas are required? If not, what must be covered? And, on what basis do you draw the line where you do?

It used to be scandalous, in our country, to expose the ankle. Do you believe that standard is excessive? If so, why?..

Google: "ethnocentrism," which is an extremely similar.

By all means, continue on and follow the dictates of your heart. I am not trying to change your mind. All real Christianity is simply a voice crying in the wilderness. If you choose to be part of that wilderness, that is your choice.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Nor does the bible say any of us should not go bottomless, making your point, pointless.

Isaiah was commanded to walk naked. In doing so he shamed himself, but he wasn't in sin. Gen 2-3 speaks of the shame of nakedness, but not the sin of nakedness.

Copy/paste from material I wrote for use elsewhere:

-----

After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve covered their genitals.

I believe it became ontological for humans to feel shame when their genitals are exposed, which is the area Adam and Eve covered. I may be wrong in drawing the line at the genitals, because Adam called himself naked even after creating his leaf covering. However, I have two explanations.

1. The leaves probably didn’t cover his genitals very well.

2. At this point, his nakedness may have been a relative state, such as when Saul (1Sa 19:24) or David (2Sa 6:14, 20) are called “naked,” even though perhaps most of their bodies were covered.

Guzik (2014) seems to agree:

ii. Obviously, they covered their genital areas. In virtually all cultures, adults cover their genital areas, even though other parts of the human body may be more or less exposed from culture to culture.

iii. This is not because there is something intrinsically “dirty” in our sexuality, but because we have both received our fallenness and pass it on genetically through sexual reproduction. Because of this, God has implanted it in the minds of men that more modesty is appropriate for these areas of our body.

God later covered them in a way that would cover their chests and backs (tunics). However, this may not be intended to show the minimum clothing required. Two explanations:

1. They were now under the curse (Gen 3:14), and they needed protection from their environment (Gen 3:17-18, Job 24:7).

2. This represented what Christ would later do: cover us in His blood, by His death (Heb 9:14, 22; Col 1:20).

---------

Isaiah 20 – Naked as a Sign

Isa 20:2 At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.

Isa 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;

Isa 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.

A) A Sign

Anwar (2016) explains that Isaiah (Like as my served has walked [..] So shall the king of Assyria [..] even with their buttocks uncovered) was completely naked, from top to bottom. He explains that if Isaiah was without his top, but retained his bottom clothing, that this wouldn’t create the shock (or sign) that was clearly intended. Slaves dressed this way, so it was commonplace.

Although a master may have never dressed like a slave, a superior who degrades himself to only that degree (wearing the attire of his inferiors) would be insufficient (cf. 2Sa 6:14-20, 1Sa 19:24).

Also consider the similarity with Jer 13:22,

Jer 13:22 And if you say in your heart, "Why have these things come upon me?" For the greatness of your iniquity Your skirts have been uncovered, Your heels made bare.

B) No Extra Clothing

The ancient writer Eusebius (2013) writes:

And when the cities had been conquered, the prophet was commanded to go about in public without even one garment [..] And he was commanded to lay aside his garment, which had not been woven from wool but from goats’ hair, and this to present himself absolutely naked, since he did not have a second covering of animal skin.

C) Hebrew

Note that the Hebrew word used here for both Isaiah’s nudity and that of the Egyptians and Ethiopians is arom, which is the same word used in Genesis before the fall.

D) Gomer

Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take to you a wife of prostitutions and children of prostitutions: for the land has committed great prostitution, departing from the LORD.

Sometimes, our sensibilities mislead us. For example, we may find it ridiculous for a man of God to marry a prostitute. Yet, that’s what God commanded Hosea to do.

E) Topless Isaiah

Even if Isaiah wasn’t completely naked, and only exposed his torso and feet: he was topless. To argue from Gen 3:21 that toplessness is sin is to accept that this rule applies to both genders.

And also, then Isaiah was sinfully naked – whether he exposed his genitals or not.

F) More Reading

Anwar (2013) has an excellent article on this text, which is why I didn’t write more. Please see his presentation at: Did the Prophet Isaiah truly walk naked for three long years?

The title of his work is: “Did the Prophet Isaiah truly walk naked for three long years?”

However, I commend great caution if you peruse the rest of his website.

-------

Anwar, I. (2016). Did the prophet Isaiah truly walk naked for three long years? Retrieved from Did the Prophet Isaiah truly walk naked for three long years?

Eusebius (2013). Commentary on Isaiah (ancient Christian texts). (J. Armstrong, Trans.). J. Elowsky (Ed.). Downers Grove, Illinois: IVP Academic. p. 105

Guzik, D. (2014). Commentary on the whole bible. [CMTX file for the computer program “e-sword.”]. Retrieved from Guzik, David - Commentary on the whole Bible (Substantial Update)

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

section9+1 said:
By all means, continue on and follow the dictates of your heart. I am not trying to change your mind. All real Christianity is simply a voice crying in the wilderness. If you choose to be part of that wilderness, that is your choice.

You're very good at stonewalling!

I'll stick to my rationality rather than my emotional impulsive responses to a taboo idea, because:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Feel free to take the cheap shot and sarcastically reply about how that verse applies to me--without defending your claim.

Kenny'sID · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
Isaiah was commanded to walk naked. In doing so he shamed himself, but he wasn't in sin. Gen 2-3 speaks of the shame of nakedness, but not the sin of nakedness.

So that equates to you, going topless is ok? That was a single command to one person, and if your seeing it as permission to run around naked or half naked, we need to have another talk about "common sense"

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
So that equates to you, going topless is ok? That was a single command to one person, and if your seeing it as permission to run around naked or half naked, we need to have another talk about "common sense"

Your quasi straw man is impressive. Isaiah is an isolated case, that's true; but still, it's worth taking into account. Genesis is intended to be generalized; address the arguments I made from there.

Also, the not-so-subtle attacks against my person (my lack of common sense, in this case; another claimed I'm not Christian, etc.) is incredibly shallow. Gaslighting and ad hominems are perhaps the lowest forms of argumentative manipulation.

Kenny'sID · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
Your quasi straw man is impressive. Isaiah is an isolated case, that's true; but still, it's worth taking into account. Genesis is intended to be generalized; address the arguments I made from there.

Also, the not-so-subtle attacks against my person (my lack of common sense, in this case; another claimed I'm not Christian, etc.) is incredibly shallow. Gaslighting and ad hominems are perhaps the lowest forms of argumentative manipulation.

They aren't attacks, common sense is the only way to understand something that is not spelled out when one insists something so obvious isn't there. Or, it's real world advice, in spite of how you perceive it.

And no, the isolated case is not worth taking into account at all. Where does the bible say it's worth it? Nowhere? Then there ya' go.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
They aren't attacks, common sense is the only way to understand something that is not spelled out when one insists something so obvious is spelled out. Or, it's real world advice, in spite of how you perceive it.

And no, the isolated case is not worth taking into account at all. Where does the bible say it's wort it? Nowhere? Then there ya' go.

It's obvious, because... you say it is.

I believe it's obviously not the case, based on the Genesis account. The text shows us which part of the body ontologically creates shame, and it's not the chest. And it calls full nudity shame, not sin. It's "obvious" to you because it's what you want to see, based on your cultural biases.

Feel free to respond, but you've made it clear that you don't want to address the text or my arguments, apart from vague descriptions that I lack sense. It's always easier to attack the person.

If your common sense is so superior to mine, then you should be able to present an explanation as to how I'm violating common sense. Show me, instead of making a declaration. A declaration isn't helpful; "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

As for whether it's worth taking into account, this fits well enough:

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Kenny'sID · Jun 21, 2019

blackhole said:
Feel free to respond, but you've made it clear that you don't want to address the text or my arguments,

I addressed your text in my last post. And no, I'm not going throuh all your points. I'll just make an example of one, or say something like, most of the scriptures you post don't even come close to being proven they are talking about the subject at hand, they're merely useless filler that you are pretending can be used as defense.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I addressed your text in my last post. And no, I'm not going throuh all your points. I'll just make an example of one, or say something like, most of the scriptures you post don't even come close to being proven they are talking about the subject at hand, they're merely useless filler that you are pretending can be used as defense.

Yet again, accusations without explanation. I'd prefer that you cease posting here, but obviously I can't enforce that. The reason I respond is for the sake of other readers, but probably by this point they've caught on to what's going on.

Also, as in my OP: the burden of proof lies on the one making a positive claim. I'm making a negative claim; I didn't have to prove anything.

You have to use the text to prove a standard exists.

Mathetes66 · Jun 21, 2019

"All of your verses requires me to presuppose that toplessness is evil. I do not accept your view; thus, I do not accept that I've taught any false doctrine."

It is a good lesson for all reading the thread of the OP & his response to my post & others along a similar line. I have given websites of some of the most respected Bible teachers & scholars concerning God's view of nakedness directly contrary to what the OP is trying to convince all of us. The title says prove me wrong. I have sought to do so on various levels.

Then I listed a number of verses myself that had nothing to do with nakedness but with seeking to bring controversy, strife, wrangling of words that is meaningless, empty of content & should be avoided for those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus.

We are to preach the gospel & further God's kingdom & not get caught up in these meaningless, divisive discussions. That was why I listed the verses I did & that is why I listed godly internationally known Bible teachers & scholars to present the case for the shame of nakedness EXCEPT for the intimacy of a husband & wife in a marriage covenant with God. There is no shame in nakedness there, as God designed it & it relates to having the intimacy with God in a spiritual sense. It is private not public & the nakedness is not for another.

We were not called to debate that women going topless is good or bad but to preach the gospel to the lost, that they might be saved, live righteous & godly lives in Christ & avoid any appearance of evil. Those tribes that used to go topless, when they come to Christ clothe themselves. I have been involved in missions for years & contact with many missionaries currently ministering in all parts of the world & this is verified.

We should be involved in being about our Master's business & not getting sidetracked with things like this. That is my understanding based on just some of the Scriptures that I have shown, with more unsaid.

The examples of prophets going naked, God specifically Himself says is to 'show the shame of it.' It was isolated examples to show how wrong it is & it is not the norm at all.

The whole inappropriate contentography industry that is rampant across the world flaunts nakedness, taking what God created as holy & set apart for the covenant of marriage & making it common, vulgar, profane. It is a slippery slope downward to start with women going topless as an innocent thing. Section9+1's post says it better than I can.

"Section 9+1 Proverbs chapter 5. Drink water from your own cistern. May you rejoice in the wife of your youth. May her breasts satisfy you always. Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the Lord. The evil deeds of a wicked man ensnare him; he will die for lack of discipline, led astray by his own great folly.

If we should have exposed breasts why should it stop there? There's always more to be seen in the way of nudity. Maybe since we can have public nudity of breasts, why not public fondling of breasts or squeezing or handling? Why must we draw lines of appropriate behavior? This is no end in itself. There is no end. It is just another downward step in a process of endless downward travel. Does anyone foolishly think that a relaxing of standards in one place will stop at that place? "Temptation to sin is sure to come, but woe to him (or her) by whom it comes." Don't be ridiculous and think that exposed breasts is the final end in itself. It always continues. When one step is accomplished it always moves on to the next step. Guaranteed!"

And it is extremely sad that after your first comment, you then post Matt 15:9, Col 2:20-23 & I Tim 4:1-4--verses on the traditions & commandments of men opposing the commandments of God & even being doctrines of demons, IMPLYING that is what I am doing & the number of godly Bible teachers & scholars teaching on nakedness publically (exposing someone's naked other than for privacy in holy matrimony)--is the commandments of men contradicting Scripture & going so far that you call all I & these Christian scholars have shown verse after verse ARE the commandments from God Himself-- & implying these are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS!

I have given you warning. You have implied what I showed as Biblical evidence concerning nakedness from God's Word & commandments from God that these are doctrines of demons. You may need to take heed to what the meaning of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is & who is promoting something contrary to what has been said & commanded in His Word. I am done with this thread, having felt led to make an appeal to avoid the debating & focus on what God has called His people to do.

2 Cor 6:14-18 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ & Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement can exist between the temple of God & idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live WITH them & walk IN them & I will be their God & they will be My people. Therefore come out from among them & be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing & I will receive you.” And: “I will be a Father to you & you will be My sons & daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

Do we want to stand in the presence of God naked? Born again Christians won't. We will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ & His glory & the white linen of the righteous acts of the saints. God clothes us so we no longer stand before God naked & ashamed. Think God only says this in the OT? Here is Jesus Himself speaking in the NT!

Rev 3:3-5 Remember, then, what you have received & heard. Keep it & repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief & you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments & because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white.

Rev 3:14-19 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "These are the words of the Amen, the faithful & true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation. I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy & need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind & NAKED. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, WHITE GARMENTS SO THAT YOU MAY BE CLOTHED & YOUR SHAMEFUL NAKEDNESS NOT EXPOSED & salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19Those I love, I rebuke & discipline. Therefore be earnest & repent.

FireDragon76 · Jun 21, 2019

Mathetes66 said:
We were not called to decide that women going topless is good or bad but to preach the gospel to the lost, that they might be saved, live righteous & godly lives in Christ & avoid any appearance of evil. Those tribes that used to go topless, when they come to Christ clothe themselves. I have been involved in missions for years & contact with many missionaries currently ministering in all parts of the world & this is verified.

All that shows is that missionaries destroy alot of cultures in Jesus name. And that's not unproblematic, just ask any Native American ("save the man, kill the Indian"). Missionaries often uncritically impose western values upon their hosts.

blackhole · Jun 21, 2019

Mathetes66 said:
It is a good lesson for all reading the thread of the OP & his response to my post. I have given websites of some of the most respected Bible teachers & scholars concerning God's view of nakedness directly contrary to what the OP is trying to convince all of us. The title says prove me wrong. I have sought to do so on various levels.

Then I listed a number of verses myself that had nothing to do with nakedness but with seeking to bring controversy, strife, wrangling of words that is meaningless, empty of content & should be avoided for those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus.

We are to preach the gospel & further God's kingdom & not get caught up in these meaningless, divisive discussions. That was why I listed the verses I did & that is why I listed godly internationally known Bible teachers & scholars to present the case for the shame of nakedness EXCEPT for the intimacy of a husband & wife in a marriage covenant with God. There is no shame in nakedness there, as God designed it & it relates to having the intimacy with God in a spiritual sense. It is private not public & the nakedness is not for another.

We were not called to debate that women going topless is good or bad but to preach the gospel to the lost, that they might be saved, live righteous & godly lives in Christ & avoid any appearance of evil. Those tribes that used to go topless, when they come to Christ clothe themselves. I have been involved in missions for years & contact with many missionaries currently ministering in all parts of the world & this is verified.

We should be involved in being about our Master's business & not getting sidetracked with things like this. That is my understanding based on just some of the Scriptures that I have shown, with more unsaid.

The examples of prophets going naked, God specifically Himself says is to 'show the shame of it.' It was isolated examples to show how wrong it is & it is not the norm at all.

The whole inappropriate contentography industry that is rampant across the world flaunts nakedness, taking what God created as holy & set apart for the covenant of marriage & making it common, vulgar, profane. It is a slippery slope downward to start with women going topless as an innocent thing. Section9+1's post says it better than I can.

And it is extremely sad that after your first comment, you then post Matt 15:9, Col 2:20-23 & I Tim 4:1-4--verses on the traditions & commandments of men opposing the commandments of God & even being doctrines of demons, IMPLYING that is what I am doing & the number of godly Bible teachers & scholars teaching on nakedness publically (exposing someone's naked other than for privacy in holy matrimony)--is the commandments of men contradicting Scripture & going so far that you call all I & these Christian scholars have shown verse after verse ARE the commandments from God Himself-- & implying these are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS!

I have given you warning. You have implied what I showed as Biblical evidence concerning nakedness from God's Word & commandments from God that these are doctrines of demons. You may need to take heed to what the meaning of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is & who is promoting something contrary to what has been said & commanded in His Word. I am done with this thread, having felt led to make an appeal to avoid the debating & focus on what God has called His people to do.

2 Cor 6:14-18 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ & Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement can exist between the temple of God & idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live WITH them & walk IN them & I will be their God & they will be My people. Therefore come out from among them & be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing & I will receive you.” And: “I will be a Father to you & you will be My sons & daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

Do we want to stand in the presence of God naked? Born again Christians won't. We will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ & His glory & the white linen of the righteous acts of the saints. God clothes us so we no longer stand before God naked & ashamed. Think God only says this in the OT? Here is Jesus Himself speaking in the NT!

Rev 3:3-5 Remember, then, what you have received & heard. Keep it & repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief & you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments & because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white.

Rev 3:14-19 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "These are the words of the Amen, the faithful & true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation. I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy & need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind & NAKED. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, WHITE GARMENTS SO THAT YOU MAY BE CLOTHED & YOUR SHAMEFUL NAKEDNESS NOT EXPOSED & salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19Those I love, I rebuke & discipline. Therefore be earnest & repent.

On what basis do you conflate toplessness with nudity?

And how do you justify appeals to authority, when those authorities aren't apostles?

Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

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