I have sympathy for some poor people.

OldWiseGuy said:

Of course, but I have little sympathy for the driver who ran the red light if it was a reckless act (however it could have been a medical condition).

That comment was meant to be a purely subjective observation and a direct comparison to myself. I had every opportunity to make sound financial decisions as young working man, but I chose to waste my money on 'wine, women, and song' and other foolish pursuits. I paid a heavy price and learned a hard lesson. I think that others could benefit from my experience and hopefully they will.

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The only reason I brought it up is you seemed to be putting out an unfairly harsh view of some people, but at the same time, I didn't think you really felt what those words were conveying...to me anyway.

So good, glad you didn't mean it as I was hearing it.

Yes, we pay a heavy price for fairly innocent bad decisions as well as reckless bad decisions, and it would be nice to know there are people like Christ out there that don't care what we did, and if we sincerely understood/admit we did it wrong, they might step in and keep someone from having to pay such a high price, regardless of what they did.

A lot like Christ did for us on a lesser, but still important, scale.

timewerx said:

Nothing is impossible for the Lord but a changed heart won't ask to get rich in this world. You can't love both God and money. YOu can't serve two masters.

The disciples of Christ didn't ask for worldly riches even though Christ promised them, "whatever you ask, it shall be given".

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And a changed heart would not complain about being poor, or those that are rich. If Jesus is your Master as you say, You would care nothing about money, how much another has, or what another does with their money.

The only disciple that commented on the way another spent their money and how they should spend it was Judas and....well you know what happened with him. The other disciples asked for and got whatever they desired.....If they asked for money or a souped up horse and carriage....do you think that would have made it into the bible???? Would that be important to one who does not care about big horses and money? No....there for it should not be there as the purpose of the Word is to lead us to eternal life....not to figure out what earthly possessions to ask for.

Ask and you shall receive....whatsoever you ask for....is all I need to know.....I dont need specifics.... I see it, I like it, I want it, I got it......

If you decide to have not because you ask not....that is fine and good......But it is also fine and good for those who decide to ask and receive from their father. If you knew that things of the spirit are greater than that of the flesh, you wouldnt think twice about any material possession..

timewerx said:

Yes, those in politics embezzle funds, those in businesses short-change their employees or avoid paying tax through bribes, cutting corners, unjustifiably high profit margins, etc.

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Why dont you go into politics and show them how to use funds fairly? WHy not go into business and tall-change your employees? If you arent willing to do so....Why not let those who are do it how they like...since you arent willing to show them the right way to do it?

timewerx said:

The most common case by far is grossly underpaid workers.

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Why not get a business and overpay your workers.....Im sure many would appreciate that.

timewerx said:

There's also plenty of rich medical doctors here....Here, medical industry charge atrociously high for their services, basically denying the poor of high quality healthcare. It's also a corrupt industry here. They obscure facts. We have mostly negative experiences with doctors and hospitals here. If they realize you are tight with finances, they will no longer render adequate medical attention to you. They all love money.

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Why not become a DR and work for low wages......provide help to those who the bad doctors stop helping? Wouldnt that do more than sitting back and talking about what is not being done?

timewerx said:

But basically, the problem is the "Love of money". The root of all evil. If you love money, you will refuse to share enough of it or would be too selfish or to greedy to pay your workers fair amount of wage.

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I think the problem is that you seem to be unwilling to get out and make change....unwilling to get out there and run business correctly.....you can only sit back and talk about those who are not going it correctly.

This is part of the issue spoken about in the op...if you want to see change....you must make an effort to make change yourself......

Well technically speaking God also says not to be a sloth. Among other versus. So it doesn't seem like God approves of people who are poor that are poor because they are just lazy to work and instead try to leech off of everyone as part of their manipulation strategy. Granted obviously most poor aren't like that. Though in America it seems many poor are poor simply because they don't know how to budget and treat credit cards like actual money. Key word to a credit card is CreDEBT Card.

Ophiolite said:

Send me your postal address and I shall be happy to ship you the first stone.

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(sends address)
I'd like three if you could.

Seems everyone has a good point here.

RaymondG said:

Why dont you go into politics and show them how to use funds fairly? WHy not go into business and tall-change your employees? If you arent willing to do so....Why not let those who are do it how they like...since you arent willing to show them the right way to do it?


Why not get a business and overpay your workers.....Im sure many would appreciate that.


Why not become a DR and work for low wages......provide help to those who the bad doctors stop helping? Wouldnt that do more than sitting back and talking about what is not being done?



I think the problem is that you seem to be unwilling to get out and make change....unwilling to get out there and run business correctly.....you can only sit back and talk about those who are not going it correctly.

This is part of the issue spoken about in the op...if you want to see change....you must make an effort to make change yourself......

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Electing progressive politicians into high offices will do much more toward that goal than merely practicing fair business on your own end. If anyone actually is trying to change the system but doesn’t know how to do it themselves... vote, donate, campaign.

OldWiseGuy said:

But not all.

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Sorry OldWiseGuy I still do't get it. I mean, I am close, I have read the 10 other threads you started in various forums on this board the sole purpose of which were to let us know what you think about poor people.

Perhaps I'll get it around thread 15 or so.

Keep up the good and by no means self aggrandizing or narcissistic work!

OldWiseGuy said:

One of my favorite topics. I like to add the cold hard facts of life to the usual sympathetic love fest. There's some hidden stuff in there as well. Have you checked out my threads on health?

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Indeed I have. I especially like the way you broke each thread down int specific subsets of carbohydrates. As someone who does alot of work with clinical cohort standardization with ontologies such as SNOMED, I do indeed appreciate your dedication to the important topic of what_oldwiseguy_thinks_about_stuff. Perhaps the mods could give you your own subforum? That way those of shortsighted enough to not care quite so much about what you think would never have to see any of your threads ever again.

SNOMED CT - Starchy food intake - Classes | NCBO BioPortal

NothingIsImpossible said:

But I am referring to those for example who lie to get SSI so they don't have to work. But then take the money and buy the newest Iphone, go to football games, buy beer and weed. And also throw a pity party on purpose to manipulate people into helping them with cash, rides....etc. They could for example take a bus to where they need to go. But instead call everyone and say "Poor me, I got no ride today. I don't know what to do! No one cares!".

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Living in deceit is different than being poor. There are people living in deceit at every economic level, except, perhaps, for the the dead-poor (i.e. those with no real opportunities).

Your life is likely compromised more by the billionaires who scheme and lobby, with the result that you face heavier life burdens ... than by the pan-handler who you see on the street-corner. At least you have a choice with the pan-handler.

RaymondG said:

The only limitations you have are the ones you place on yourself. You state that you serve a God who says that nothing is impossible for Him...You say you read His Word which states, "I can do all things through Christ" Yet now you speak of impossibilities and things that cant be done....

You cant have it both ways.

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God never implies that His people would ever be free from dependence (at least to some extent) ... upon the kindness, love, and generosity of their fellowmen.

He places us within societies and families ... and these structures may, indeed, put limits upon the amount of material success we enjoy.

Consider the Hebrews in Biblical Egypt. They were slaves there for 400 years (i.e. multiple generations) ... before God sent Moses to deliver them. What would you say to them ?

For that matter, consider the plight of African-American believers ... who were born into a life of servitude, cruelty, and poverty ... only by virtue of the color of their skin. There were believing slaves in America for 200+ years, ... and full societal rights would not be forth-coming for another 100 years. What would you say to them.

People are poor for any number of reasons, which may include personal responsibility, personal capability, societal resources, family issues, etc.

First World christians are the richest persons on Earth (per capita). But that doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other christians in second and third world societies who wouldn't benefit from the love and generosity of their spiritual brethren.

OldWiseGuy said:

How about, "If a man won't work, he shouldn't eat."

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That's not an exhaustive understanding of economics, you know. That's more of a justification for a hard heart, in this context. Being genuinely a person for others involves an ethic of presence and openness, not religious dogma.

RaymondG said:

And a changed heart would not complain about being poor, or those that are rich. If Jesus is your Master as you say, You would care nothing about money, how much another has, or what another does with their money.

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God seems to have a lot to say about it ...

Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

— Proverbs 31:8-9

A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.

— Proverbs 11:25

It is a sin to despise one’s neighbor, but blessed is the one who is kind to the needy.

— Proverbs 14:21

Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

— Proverbs 14:31

Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.

— Proverbs 19:17

The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.

— Proverbs 22:9

Those who give to the poor will lack nothing, but those who close their eyes to them receive many curses.

— Proverbs 28:27

May the mountains bring prosperity to the people, the hills the fruit of righteousness. May he defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; may he crush the oppressor.

— Psalm 72:3-4

Who is like the Lord our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth? He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes, with the princes of his people.

— Psalm 113:5-8

Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord their God. He is the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them—he remains faithful forever. He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free, the Lord gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous. The Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.

— Psalm 146:5-9

Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday. The Lord will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail.

— Isaiah 58:6-11

Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.

— Isaiah 1:17

Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

— Romans 12:11-13

If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

— 1 John 3:17

Then Jesus said to his host . . . When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

— Luke 14:14

“I have the right to do anything,” you say — but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything” — but not everything is constructive. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

— 1 Corinthians 10: 23-24

There need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.

— Deuteronomy 15:4-5

If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.

— Deuteronomy 15:7-8

Give generously to [the poor] and do so without a grudging heart, then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be open-handed toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

— Deuteronomy 15:10-11

OldWiseGuy said:

Jesus told us to seek the kingdom first and all of our material needs would be provided.

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The Kingdom is the love of neighbor, including their material needs. You cannot be in the Kingdom and indifferent to your neighbor.

Excellent scriptures.......I believe we agree even though you seem to believe we dont.....The one I replied to would disagree with many of the scriptures you quoted...

A_Thinker said:

God seems to have a lot to say about it ...

Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

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I am all for getting out and helping to poor.....and not talking about and berating those that dont... If I am busy doing what I can to help, I have no time to look for and talk about those who arent helping.

A_Thinker said:

It is a sin to despise one’s neighbor, but blessed is the one who is kind to the needy.

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We must note that the rich and the poor are BOTH our neighbors. we must treat both equally......and if you consider the rich, least deserving of our love......what you say about them......you say about Christ.. for what you do to the least you have gone it as unto ME.

A_Thinker said:

The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.

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No, no, no. The one I replied to does not believe in this type of blessings from God.....nor believe that one should collect enough to be generous in giving.....we should only collect what we need to live.......if we collect more....our treasures are on the earth

A_Thinker said:

Those who give to the poor will lack nothing, but those who close their eyes to them receive many curses.

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This is what I was saying.....which you seem to disagree with in a previous post. I believe those who serve the living God will lack nothing.

A_Thinker said:

May the mountains bring prosperity to the people, the hills the fruit of righteousness. May he defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; may he crush the oppressor.

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No, no, no the one I replied to doesnt believe in this type of prosperity.....best keep this verse to yourself.

A_Thinker said:

He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes, with the princes of his people.

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How can the poor be raised when the system and the rich, and circumstances beyond their control keep them down? I'll tell you how..... For man is it impossible.....but with God, nothing is impossible. Your only limitation is the one you put on yourself.

A_Thinker said:

There need be no poor people among you,

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I think I've made my point already.....

A_Thinker said:

God never implies that His people would ever be free from dependence (at least to some extent) ... upon the kindness, love, and generosity of their fellowmen.

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God wants us to be completely dependent on Him.....not anything or anyone in the world. Of course he will use people in the world to get you what you desire but it would not be because of the generosity of people, but because of the goodness of God.

I used to feel proud when I gave someone money.....But I now realize that they must of asked God for it, and He used me to give it to them....He compelled me to do so....and it was not because of any goodness of my own....only Him. Now I just thank God for using me and putting me in a position to be used by Him......

A_Thinker said:

He places us within societies and families ... and these structures may, indeed, put limits upon the amount of material success we enjoy.

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Sometimes he put us in the Bondage so that we can experience getting out of it and be able to help others do the same. We were never meant to stay there and complain about it......but get out and overcome.

A_Thinker said:

Consider the Hebrews in Biblical Egypt. They were slaves there for 400 years (i.e. multiple generations) ... before God sent Moses to deliver them. What would you say to them ?

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These are spiritual matters that I am not free to discuss openly.....But I would thank them for showing me the way out of bondage....If they had not gone through it, it would not be written and our bibles would be a lot thinner....

A_Thinker said:

For that matter, consider the plight of African-American believers ... who were born into a life of servitude, cruelty, and poverty ... only by virtue of the color of their skin. There were believing slaves in America for 200+ years, ... and full societal rights would not be forth-coming for another 100 years. What would you say to them.

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Can you tell me for sure, what they believed it? Do we know who served the "unknown god" on the mountain, and who serves the true and living God? do we know now, who will hear, "I never knew you?" Until we know in whom we believe, there is no time to consider another's plight.

A_Thinker said:

People are poor for any number of reasons, which may include personal responsibility, personal capability, societal resources, family issues, etc.

First World christians are the richest persons on Earth (per capita). But that doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other christians in second and third world societies who wouldn't benefit from the love and generosity of their spiritual brethren.

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No matter how you became poor, or why one is poor....I know a Man who is capable of delivering you out of all your hardships......if you would only believe that He can. Until then, everyone if free to try and deliver themselves......just know that there is One waiting at the door, knocking.........and it is His good pleasure to give you the kingdom.....now.

RaymondG said:

Sometimes he put us in the Bondage so that we can experience getting out of it and be able to help others do the same. We were never meant to stay there and complain about it......but get out and overcome.

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MOST of the people enslaved over the course of hundreds of years DO NOT get out of it. They are BORN INTO ... and DIE in it.

It is the responsibility of their society to effect the changes necessary to free them.

For evidence of this, witness God's desolations brought upon the nation of Egypt ... because they wouldn't free the Hebrews ...