Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

It is amazing that there are those who are teaching that salvation includes works, when Paul clearly teaches that the sinner's works are as filthy rags before God. The meaning of "filthy rags" is the used sanitary pad - that's how objectionable the sinner's works are to God. So, if a person is mixing works with faith in order to receive salvation, they are mixing in something that stinks in the nostrils of God!

I think it is because these people don't put Paul's teaching on the same basis of that of Jesus. But Paul is speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent in His place. That means, Paul's teaching has the same Scriptural authority as that of Jesus. He doesn't contradict Jesus but is extending the teaching that Jesus gave to the unconverted Jews still under the Law, to converted believers who have faith in Christ.

The true gospel consists of faith in finished work of Christ on the cross for our salvation. It shows that we were hopeless sinners whose good works stank in the nose of God, and therefore the finished work of Jesus on the cross is the only basis of faith for salvation. Those who say we are saved by faith and works are believing another gospel, and are still lost sinners who will face judgment instead of being rewarded by Christ.

These are the ones who will be crying, "Lord, Lord. Haven't we done these great works for you?" And Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me you workers of iniquity". This shows that all the "good" works that a sinner does are works of iniquity, and cannot in any way be part of true conversion to Christ under the true gospel of Christ.

But when a person is genuinely converted, then he starts doing the works that result in the indwelling Holy Spirit, and those works are the result of Christ working in him. This is the sense that sanctification is by works that we do as we are led by the indwelling Spirit.

mdamon0501 said:

There is a Proverb I like to quote because I don't think it can get any more cut and dry.

Proverbs 16:4 NASB
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Consequently the very next verse is:

Proverbs 16:5 NASB
Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.

I think both the Old and New Testaments are clear on the idea, that giving credit to anything other than God is an abomination to him, because this entire creation has been brought into being to do one thing: Glorify Him.

Hence why he openly admits to being a jealous God. I think this is the proper way to deal with the term iniquity.

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Brother, I do believe God is working on my heart. I gather you’re a Devine determinist, which I am the utter opposite of and I have found deep joy in your passion for His saving Grace and proclamation of His sufficiency to Save through Grace.

There was a time I would have tripped..., but I can sincerely say I understand and respect your perspective.

I remain opposed to Divine determinism.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you!

Grip Docility said:

Brother, I do believe God is working on my heart. I gather you’re a Devine determinist, which I am the utter opposite of and I have found deep joy in your passion for His saving Grace and proclamation of His sufficiency to Save through Grace.

There was a time I would have tripped..., but I can sincerely say I understand and respect your perspective.

I remain opposed to Divine determinism.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you!

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I would be interested sometime in hearing your objections to Divine Determinism. I am always curious to hear other perspectives.

Grace to You and Peace!

mdamon0501 said:

I would be interested sometime in hearing your objections to Divine Determinism. I am always curious to hear other perspectives.

Grace to You and Peace!

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Let's be honest, it's non essential doctrine, and it's really glorified campfire talk.

We both Love Jesus and the bottom Line is, God is God and we are we. I offer you a seat next to me and Job. Ashes on my head, and admission He is beyond my comprehension!

On the flip... maybe I'm ready to open dialogue without losing it. PM inbound. But you get to teach me your understanding first!

mdamon0501 said:

I would be interested sometime in hearing your objections to Divine Determinism. I am always curious to hear other perspectives.

Grace to You and Peace!

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From what I understand of Divine Determinism is that it is the same as the doctrine of Predestination - that some are predestined to be the elect, and the rest predestined to hell. I just don't believe that God deliberately created billions of souls just to have them perish in hell. It is right against His nature. The invitation of the gospel is made to all, but not all are going to believe it and receive Christ - but as many who have received Christ as Saviour, He gave them the right to be call the sons of God.

CharismaticLady said:

Where do we get the idea that we just don't practice sin, rather than the true meaning, we don't commit sin even once.

Shall we say, I'm not an habitual fornicator, so tonight won't matter? I'll just repent later?

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One person’s struggles are not another’s.

Oscarr said:

This doesn't apply to me because I have never lived in Egypt!

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What about living in the world, on earth ?

Hebrews 11
13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

CharismaticLady said:

I'm talking about the true meaning of verses and words

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The true meaning isn’t what you think. Go back to the Law and look at the subtext of all sexual immorality.

Listen to Jesus and WHO He is speaking to about Divorce.

Read Paul in Romans 1 and look for the same context. This is imperative.

Oscarr said:

Paul spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is the same as Jesus speaking, and he says that those who are depending on works to receive salvation are under a curse. He says if you are depending on works, you have to comply with every single law of God without exception right from childhood. One infraction of the Law will lead to condemnation.

I think that you need to consider whether you are trusting in the true gospel of Christ, and not another gospel.

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He's talking about the Old Convenant, which could not justify because it had to be followed perfectly. So even those who were under law were justified by loyalty.

Psalm 32
1How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!

2How blessed is the man to whom the LORDdoes not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.

4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

Selah.
5I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I did not hide;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”;
And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

CharismaticLady said:

I'm not talking about what you may or not think about sexual sins; that's not the point. I'm talking about those who make the true word of God of little effect, by lessening the meaning.

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It lessens Paul’s meaning when Paul is read in the flesh.

Do you honestly think Paul devotes sections to teachings about head coverings?

Grip Docility said:

Aha! You’re a tricky one! You must speak from the armor and laugh at the responses!

You’re a character... you!

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I think your blood-sugar is getting low.

Grip Docility said:

Rotfl... “Derail”

You knew where I was coming from and were difficult the whole time!

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I don't know what you're talking about.

Oscarr said:

Paul is quite clear when he spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he said that Justification is by faith in Christ alone, not of works. If a person is mixing works in with Justification, they are not saved, but are depending on good deeds to make them acceptable to God and are rejecting the finished work of Christ. You may need to re-read Romans a bit more carefully, because if you are mixing works with faith and expect to be saved, you are not, and are still on the road to hell.

I will agree with you that sanctification is through the works of faith, but they are still based on what you do as the result of being converted to Christ. The evidence of true justification by faith is the resultant desire to live a holy life as far as one is able, through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

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Paul's references to "works" is in regard to the Mosaic Law.
Belief, confession, repentance from sin, baptism, obedience to God, etc. are not the "works" Paul writes of.

Willful sin would be agonizing to the born-again believer. I don't believe obedience is marked by works but it's a sign of the Spirit working inside the believer. We wouldn't want to displease God with our sin after we receive His love, even if we fall into temptation.

CharismaticLady said:

Where do we get the idea that we just don't practice sin, rather than the true meaning, we don't commit sin even once. The only time "practice" is written, it is about righteousness - not sin.

Shall we say, I'm not an habitual fornicator, so tonight won't matter? I'll just repent later?

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if a person premeditates to commit a willful sin, to use your example, that he is going on a date with the intention of seducing her into fornication, thinking he could just do it and then be forgiven later, he might land himself in trouble with the Lord, and, although it may not cost him his salvation, the Lord may chastise him to impress upon him that he cannot go doing things like that. One way is that the girl may become pregnant and he has to pay child support for the next 18 years, and sometime down the track he might have to explain to his child how he got born. The child may reject him for it. Also it may affect a future marriage with the "right" person.

So, premeditated sin like that involves a price to be paid, and so the Lord may chastise him quite strongly so that his soul may be saved.

But if he didn't premeditate, but through weakness and going too far in the physical encounter and they found themselves not able to resist, then there may be chastisement from the Lord, but not as strong as a premeditated act.

There is not a lot of teaching in our churches about the chastising of the Lord for willful acts of disobedience, but the Scripture does say:

"For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Hebrews 12:6-11).

Phil W said:

Paul's references to "works" is in regard to the Mosaic Law.
Belief, confession, repentance from sin, baptism, obedience to God, etc. are not the "works" Paul writes of.

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These works come as the result of conversion to Christ, not before. A person repents, is baptised, is obedient, etc., because he is saved. An unsaved person cannot do any of these from his heart. He may go through the motions to please those around him, but he is doing them hypocritically unless he comes to Christ, puts his full trust in Him for salvation.

Many church members have done all these things as outward ordinances, but because their hearts remain unchanged toward Christ Himself, and have more interest in the outward forms and ceremonies, than in Christ, they are hypocrites and remain lost sinners.