Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.
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Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy and not falling away into sin and dying spiritually for a time with the capacity to come back and have spiritual life again (See the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32, and pay close attention to verses 24, and 32), and see James 5:19-20.
As for David: Yes, he lost his salvation, otherwise he would not have sought forgiveness of his sins with the Lord and for him to ask for a clean heart and a right spirit within him again (See Psalms 51).
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Saved persons do not ask for forgiveness of sins ? ... or a clean heart ? ... or a restored right spirit ???
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Not when it comes to grievous sin... "no." 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Belief Alone Proponents believe all future sin is paid for by having a belief in Jesus. Yet, how can one confess of sin and be forgiven of it, if it was already paid for in the future by having a belief alone on Jesus or the Messiah?
A clean heart and right spirit also suggests that they are born again spiritually, as well. Jesus said we must be born again to enter God's Kingdom. The faithful servant (who was faithful over a little) was told to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21). The unprofitable servant was said to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).
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It may be confusing to you, but in light of the principles of 1John and John 10 and so forth, it's not confusing to me seeing as performance is reflected in one's salvation status. The way you're reading it is in defiance of Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
As for the parable of the sheep and goats, notice that the sheep and goats weren't even consciously aware of what they were doing. In other words they simply did what can naturally to them. And that's the reason why he spoke of these two distinct categories of people. They already have in this lifestyle two distinctly different natures. And again that's reflected in the teachings of 1John. Before even evaluating their performance he had already separated them into categories of saved/unsaved. So it wasn't the works which saved them, but rather it was their nature which was reflected in their works. And how do you get the nature of a "sheep", that is "born of God"? Through faith ALONE. "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13 and "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1John 5:1
This as opposed to the salvation by works idea that one works, one obeys commands and such IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, which as I pointed out is disbelief in the gospel
Yes few find it, and therefore the vast majority of Christians (seeing as they make about 1/3 of the population) are not the few that do find it, since it's few and not many who are saved. As I see it well over half the Christian community believes in salvation by works in form or another. Those who believe what I believe are in a small minority among Christians. (I've examined the demographics) Biblical Christianity has never been and cannot reflect Popular Christianity. It's folly to make popularity the measure of truth. But then again it's just as foolish to make unpopularity the measure of truth.
But as for the narrow path Jesus says that it leads to life. Those of us who have come to faith in Christ have not only traveled it, we already finished it. That is we have attained eternal life, and that by faith in Christ alone. "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13 Unpopular idea, but true. But then again Unpopularity doesn't make something true either.
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There is a difference between having sins atoned for ... through which we are saved, and thus, making it possible for us to be born into relationship with God ... and having sins forgiven, which enables us to maintain fellowship with God ... within the ongoing relationship.
I may sin against my wife (perhaps with a careless word), but such does not invalidate our relationship. Confession and a response of forgiveness, however, will do much to restore fellowship ... within our ongoing relationship.
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I would disagree. "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10
It's about identifying the saved and distinguishing them from the unsaved.
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13
Feel free to view my outline in 1John where I show the consistency of that theme throughout 1John.
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So you're saying that you disagree with John as he says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And when he says, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 and when he says, "everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:5 (so much for your attempt to use the Rev verses to rebut John) Already spoke to your Hebrews verses and so forth.
Bottom line is that you're misconstruing verses as teaching salvation by works when they're not. Already rebutted your view of John 5:29 previously. And what of John 6:66? Some people who were "following Jesus" during his ministry stopped following Jesus. So what? Doesn't mean they were allegedly saved in the first place. There are many people who are "following Jesus" but haven't come to saving faith yet.
As for more on 1John, anyone is free to peruse my study guides on 1John if they want my opinion.
1John Study Guides
1John Exegetical Study
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"had to do" - IN ORDER TO BE SAVED? That's your propositions. Gen 15:6 he was given the promise, and in Gen 15:6 Abraham was reckoned righteous for believing the promise, there being no intervening work between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6, you're saying that is Abraham died right then he would go to hell because he hadn't performed a work of faith relative to that promise. Remember that when James brought up Abraham's work of faith in Gen 22 it was over a decade later. So you're saying that Abraham's faith was dead from Genesis 15 to Genesis 22.
Much as you misconstrue Paul as showing that the gospel is salvation by works and is only a nuance difference from justification by the works of the law, it should be clear that Paul is saying that the gospel is by faith and not by performance. I know that you can't be convinced of this fact despite our many conversations about his presentation of the gospel in Romans 3, Romans 4, and Romans 10 where in each case he's very clear that faith in Christ is the sole condition for salvation and in contrast to those who make it into a performance based salvation concept. But you've been serving a useful purpose in showing viewers a clear example that there indeed are salvation by works Christians and I've been showing how to deal with them and their ideas.
Again we've talked about Romans 2 previously. That from Rom 1:8-Rom 3:20 Paul is talking about justification by the law. Then in Romans 3:21 he transitions into the gospel of grace saying, "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:21-24
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Gr8Grace
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Always nice to see other believers who have studied His Word enough to SEE the difference of salvation( Believe and be saved Acts 16:31, John 3:16) and fellowship (1 John 1:9.)
The workers for can never see the difference. It's either loss of salvation or you were never really saved.
At least the loss of salvation camp is 'in your face' with works for salvation. It's the reformed/calvin camp that is harder to spot.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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What do you mean it is “nice to see?” Is this not what you are used to seeing? For most Sola Scriptura churches believe in Belief Alone-ism.
The only only major Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that I am aware of who believes in “Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation” is Christ’s Sanctified Holiness Church; They have a few churches along the Eastern seaboard. Even Wesleyan Holiness churches believe in Sola Fide.
In other words, Belief Alone-ism is the ever popular view.
But Jesus said narrow is the way, and few (not many) will be there that find it.
Just look at Matthew 7:23, Jesus did not say to those believers to depart from Him because they did not trust in His finished work alone and they should not have worried about living holy so much. On the contrary, Jesus said to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (Which is why He did not know them).
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When you read John 8:47, you have to also read John 8:11 where Jesus says to the woman caught in the act of adultery to "sin no more." If a "belief alone" is all it takes to change a person's behavior in regards to sin, then why is Jesus bothering to tell her to sin no more? It makes no sense.
Why even have commands in the New Testament if we are changed to such a point whereby we will just automatically obey God as a part of having a belief alone?
Even you admit that the saint will always sin on occasion (and not as a lifestyle) the rest of their entire lives, and they cannot overcome occasional sinning in this life. But Jesus told two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Yet, if OSAS or Belief Alone-ism was true, Jesus would actually have to say to these two people to, "sin less."
But Jesus did not say that.
As for your mention of 1 John 4:6:
Well, I am assuming you may have meant 1 John 3:6.
Explaining 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9:
Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.).
The key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this "does not commit sin" is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. In other words, it is those who justify sin in some way who have not been born again spiritually and who have never seen or known Christ and He (the seed) does not abide in them. 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is talking about "willful sin" in Hebrews 10:26 in view or light of 1 John 1:8.
In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.
1 John 3:9 should read like this:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."
1 John 3:6 should read like this:
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."
This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.
Anyways, as for your thinking that John is teaching a condition ONLY of the true believer is false. John said in 1 John 1:7, if we walk in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. The word "if" in there tells us a possibility and not a condition of all true believers. John says IF you walk. John also tells us to "sin not." Again, John is talking to believers here. If the believer was automatically going to walk in the light, then John would say to the brethren, "I know all believers are walking in the light as He is in the light, etc." But that is not the case. In the Parable of the Sower we know that two of the seeds (believers in God's Word) fell away. One fell away due to the cares of this life and riches. The other fell away due to being ashamed of being persecuted. This is the reason why they fell away. They did not fall away because they never believed. Remember, they received the seed (the Word of God) with joy. The seed is life. It was growing in them. They had eternal life by believing gospel, but they did not endure to the end.
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The problem is that you think that Paul was referring to all forms of Law keeping (Including Sanctification) when in reality he was referring to Law Alone Salvationism (that did not include God's grace through faith). Paul was also referring to the Old Law, and he was not referring to Christ's New Covenant teachings. While Jesus was under the Old Covenant when He spoke the words in Mathew 16:24-26, Jesus was not giving us Old Covenant teachings here, but New Covenant teachings. Matthew 16:24-26 is not a part of the Torah. It was something New given to us by Jesus.
So instead of pitting one passage over another because we like the other passage better from our preferred interpretation is not good hermeneutics. We to properly harmonize these two passages together so that they are both are true.
Anyways, we know that the context in Galatians 2, that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." Galatians 2:3 says,
"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).
This means Paul was referring to Law Alone Salvationism (without God's grace) because Circumcision Salvationism was saying that you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially and ultimately saved (instead of accepting and trusting Jesus Christ as one's Savior). Circumcision was to wrongfully be the foundation of salvation and not Christ. If you were to read these passages with this in mind, it becomes perfectly clear what Paul here is saying. But if you are correct, then Paul should say that even the commands taught by Jesus (like: You shall love God, and love your neighbor) should not be obeyed if they are done for salvation. Yet, this would be speaking contrary to the words of Jesus Christ. Paul warned us that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
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Once again you repeat your assumption, that I already spoke to on a number of occasions, that the only reason to obey commands is if you're threatened with eternal condemnation. You can't even conceive of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
As for sinless perfection, again I point out that you yourself claim that one can live in sin (according to whatever arbitrary definition you have for so called "non-grevious sins") and be saved. And I've pointed this out many times of which you have not responded to. John 5:14;8:11 use the present tense just as John does in his epistle saying, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin" 1John 5:18 So to yet again repeat myself - it just doesn't happen in the case of those born of God.
Nope. Mean't 1John 4:6
KJV? You might not be aware of this but the New Testament was written in Greek which far precedes KJV. You're reading into KJV the aorist tense, whereas the Greek manuscripts upon which the KJV is based uses the present tense. And then you attempt to butcher what it actually says to fit you presumptions.
And once again 1John 1:7 is not talking about the condition to be saved. It's describing the condition of the saved.
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You've already stated previously that "A person cannot be justified or saved by observing the deeds of the Law alone without first being forgiven by Jesus Christ." Post #142 you simply add a caveat to start off that salvation by works scenario by having one's former sins erase. Then they are ready to work for their salvation.
Once again you presume that that only motivation for obeying commands is if you do so in order to be saved from hell. That's your presumption. anywhere you see a command you append "in order to be saved". And so you impose a salvation by works soteriology into the text based on your preconceived notions.
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John 3:16 has to be read in context to the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21.
All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). So it is more than just a belief alone. Jesus also stresses here that actions play a part, too. In this case, Jesus is saying that one's bad actions means they hate the light of God. Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus saves. But He saves not only in Justification, but in Sanctification, as well. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).
This would be the works of the devil in a believer's life (i.e. sin).
For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).
You said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).
We have to hear (obey) his Word, and believe on Him in order to have everlasting life and to not be under the condemnation.
1 John 1:7 says the same thing but in different words.
It says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (Note: Walking in the light is loving your brother - see 1 John 2:8-11).
"e that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).
In John 5 it says,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29).
Notice the emphasis on one's works here in relation to the different resurrections. If works in no way played a part in the different resurrections, then this verse would not say this. It would be confusing to say this if Belief Alone-ism was true. Yet, no doubt you will say that works is the by-product of a true saving faith in your defense. But what if, the Belief Alone version of holy living is not what God is looking for?
In fact, I have no idea what Belief Alone holy living even looks like.
Can you give me a quick overview of a Christian's life from your perspective in regards to their living holy and in regards to the times that they sin? What is the typical life of the believer like? Can believers lie, lust, or hate on rare occasions and are they still saved while they do these sins? Would not God have to agree with their sin in order to save them during that temporary occasional time they do these sins?
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Because a person has to be forgiven of their past sin. This is what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished for us. But even taking that step of obedience to call upon the Lord for salvation is a work. The difference here is that this work is a trust upon God to save us. The same is true even in Sanctification. We have to believe those verses in Scripture on Sanctification and ask and trust God's Word that He will move within our lives to live holy.
You said:
Not at all. I just read and believe the Bible for what it says. Luke 10:28-30 clearly teaches that you have to love God and love your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Yet, you magically think this is talking about the Old Covenant just because Jesus quotes from the Torah Scriptures. But little do you realize that Jesus was making changes to the Law. I have already pointed this out in another previous post.
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