An Alternative Explanation for Seals 3 and 4 from Revelation

iamlamad

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The term: "peace and safety" are associated by Paul to the SAME TIME as the "sudden destruction" that will come a moment after the dead in Christ rise. It is therefore to be associated with the rapture and the START of the "Day of the Lord.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Matt5 said:
Just so I understand you properly, are you saying all these verses are about the same thing?
Revelation 6:12
Luke 21:25
Matthew 24:29
Revelation 6:16
Luke 23:27-29
claninja said:
Correct. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the 6th seal of revelation matches the olivet discourse

Signs in sun, moon, and stars :
Revelation 6:12 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind

Luke 21:25 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars,

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
INCORRECT: it is terrible exegesis to align the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 with those of the 6th seal. Why? Because they are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES and they are simply different signs that will be separated by 7 years.
They all relate to 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
G4930
συντέλεια (synteleia) occurs 6 times in 6 verses
5 verses in Matthew and 1 verse in Hebrews.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end/consummation<4930> of the Age?

4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together (but much closer than 3326 or 3844), i.e. by association............
5055. teleo from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act

Heb 9:26
since it had behoved Him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full-end<4930> of the ages, for putting away of sin through His sacrifice, He hath been manifested;
=======================================
Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: Biblehub

Meyer's NT Commentary
καὶ συντελ. τοῦ αἰῶνος]
In the Gospels we find no trace of the millenarian ideas of the Apocalypse.
The τοῦ αἰῶνος, with the article, but not further defined, is to be understood as referring to the existing, the then current age of the world, i.e. to the αἰὼν οὗτος, which is brought to a close (συντέλεια) with the second coming, inasmuch as, with this latter event, the αἰὼν μέλλων begins. See on Matthew 13:39. The second coming, the resurrection and the last judgment, fall upon the ἐσχάτη ἡμέρα (John 6:39; John 11:24), which, as it will be the last day of the αἰὼν οὗτος in general, so of the ἐσχάτων ἡμερῶν (Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Jam 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3) in particular, or of the καιρὸς ἔσχατος (1 Peter 1:5), or of the χρόνος ἔσχατος (Judges 1:18; 1 Peter 1:20), which John likewise calls the ἐσχάτη ὥρα (1 John 2:18). This concluding period, which terminates with the last day, is to be characterized by abounding distress and wickedness (see on Galatians 1:4). The article was unnecessary before συντελείας, seeing that it is followed by the genitive of specification; Winer, p. 118 f. [E. T. 155].
=================================
Pulpit Commentary
Sign of thy coming (τῆς σῆς παρουσίας), and of the end of the world (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος).
They look upon these two events as synchronous, or very closely connected. The word parousia, which in classical Greek means "presence," or "arrival," is used in the New Testament specially for the second advent of Christ to set up his eternal kingdom in full power and glory (see in this chapter vers. 27, 37, 39; and comp. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, etc.). Referring to the same event, we find in some places the term "epiphany" used (see 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1), and in others "revelation" (ἀποκάλυψις, 1 Corinthians 1:7; 2 Thessalonians 1:7); but the three expressions denote simply the open establishment of Messiah's kingdom, indefnitely as to time and manner.

The phrase translated "the end of the world "means literally the consummation of the age (cf. Matthew 13:39; Hebrews 9:26); consummationis saeculi (Vulgate); i.e. the close of this present seen, in contradistinction from the future aeon, or the world to come. This is "the last time," "the last days," spoken of elsewhere (see 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; and comp. Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1).
 
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claninja

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The TRUTH is, the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE - and they will be different.

Joel prophesies that the sun will be darkened and moon turned to blood before the coming of the Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and awesome Day of the LORD.

Revelation prophesies of the sun going black and moon turning red around the time of the day of the Lord
revelation 6:12-17 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Theird wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Jesus states that sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light around the time that jesus comes.
Matthew 29:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Do you believe the return of Christ is not the day of the Lord?

As a sign of the DAY of the Lord, the moon will appear blood red, meaning it is a SEEN moon.

You do know that blood moons occur during lunar eclipses right? A lunar eclipse is when the earth's shadow blocks the suns light from bounding off the moon. Thus the moon does not give its normal light. So Jesus saying the "moon does not give it's light" would be the same as the moon turning red.

INCORRECT: it is terrible exegesis to align the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 with those of the 6th seal. Why? Because they are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES and they are simply different signs that will be separated by 7 years.

It's terrible exegesis to use scripture to interpret scripture? I disagree. I would argue it's terrible exegesis to not use scripture to interpret scripture.

Because they are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES and they are simply different signs that will be separated by 7 years.

Sure just provide the scripture that specifically state they are 2 different signs separated by 7 years to substantiate your exegesis.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Matt5 said:
Is that during the tribulation?

86 Bible Verses about Day of the LORD - 86 Bible verses about Day Of The Lord

I'm thinking the Day of the Lord destruction comes many times.
No. The Sixth Seal will happen before the great Trib, which will occur during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

The DoL has come before and will again. But the one that is extensively prophesied is at the Sixth Seal, which is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will change the world and set he scene for all the future events.
Sorry to burst your dispy futurist bubble, but all of that was fulfilled in 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple.....
as some others have suggested, quit making Jesus out to be a false prophet to the 1st century Jews ...........

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.

Matthew [4 verses] Mark [3 verses] John [2 verses] Luke [0]

Daniel 12:1
"In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one, standing over sons of thy people.
And time of distress<06869>, which not ocurred since to become of a nation, until the time, that. And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, Every of the one being found being written in scroll.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread


Luke 21:23
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69>, in every season<2540> beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong<2729> to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1Th 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
====================

Matthew 23:34
`Because of this behold!
I am commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes,
out of Them Ye shall be Killing and ye shall be crucifying......

Matthew 24:
9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and be killing you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father, the Devil, are, and the desires<1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.

Is the 10 days in Reve 2:10 a literal 10 days or symbolic?

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming! faithfull until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
 
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claninja

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claninja, how can verse 21, be before 17-20? Jesus just judged the heathen in 17-20.

My apologies, you are correct, I should have stated Ezekiel 39:23-29, and not 21-29, is chronologically before Ezekiel 39:1-22.

We can substantiate Ezekiel 39:21, and nations knowing the Lord with the judgment of Gog with Ezekiel 38. God brings Gog against Israel for a purpose: so that the nations may know the Lord.

Ezekiel 39:21 I will display My glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the judgment that I execute and the hand that I lay upon them

Ezekiel 38:16 You will advance against My people Israel like a cloud covering the land. It will happen in the last days, O Gog, that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I show Myself holy in you before their eyes.

Ezekiel 38:23 I will magnify and sanctify Myself, and will reveal Myself in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

Does Israel need to be in the land of Israel prior to Gog going against the land? I would argue yes.

When God would gather his people into the land, Gog would then come against Israel in the latter times, and enter into judgment with Gog in order to display his glory among the nations.

Ezekiel 38:7-8 Get ready; prepare yourself, you and all your company gathered around you; you will be their guard. After a long time you will be summoned. In the last years you will enter a land brought back from war and regathered from many peoples to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and all now dwell securely

Ezekiel 39:26-27 will forget their disgrace and all the treachery they committed against Me, when they dwell securely in their land, with no one to frighten them. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations.

Thus, my argument is that when Israel returned from the Babylonian Exile (Ezekiel 38:8b, Ezekiel 39:23-29), Gog would then be brought against them in the latter days in order for God to display his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 38:16, 21-23, Ezekiel 39: 1-22).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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My apologies, you are correct, I should have stated Ezekiel 39:23-29, and not 21-29, is chronologically before Ezekiel 39:1-22.

We can substantiate Ezekiel 39:21, and nations knowing the Lord with the judgment of Gog with Ezekiel 38. God brings Gog against Israel for a purpose: so that the nations may know the Lord.
Thus, my argument is that when Israel returned from the Babylonian Exile (Ezekiel 38:8b, Ezekiel 39:23-29), Gog would then be brought against them in the latter days in order for God to display his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 38:16, 21-23, Ezekiel 39: 1-22).
Hello claninja.
There is only one great day of the Lord God Almighty, correct?
If that is the case, then Armageddon and Gog/Magog would have to be that same battle. Armagedding is 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem IMHO........

What are your thoughts and/or others thoughts on that?
[please post and vote on my poll thread. Thanks]
Edit to add: I just noticed you voted "yes? on that thread claninja.......thanks for voting.

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?


Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whold home-land<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the Day, the Great, of the God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein<4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and Magog/magwg <3098>,
to be together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein<4863>(5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Sea<2281>[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Revelation 19:17
And I another Messenger having stood<2476> in the sun,
and he cries-out<2896> in great voice, saying to all the birds/orneoiV <3732>, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither<1205>! be ye being gathered!/sun-agesqe <4863> (5744) into the great Supper of the GOD.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings and fleshes of thousand-chiefs<5506> and fleshes of strong ones, and fleshes of horses and of the ones sitting on them and fleshes of all free ones<1658> besides also slaves<1401> and of small ones and of great ones<3173>
......["sacrifice on mountains of Israel" Zephaniah 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?
Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Oct 29, 2009.

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

  1. I view them as the same event
    15 vote(s)
    21.7%
  2. I view them as different events
    43 vote(s)
    62.3%
  3. I am not sure
    7 vote(s)
    10.1%
  4. Does it really matter?
    4 vote(s)
    5.8%
 
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Douggg

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Thus, my argument is that when Israel returned from the Babylonian Exile (Ezekiel 38:8b, Ezekiel 39:23-29), Gog would then be brought against them in the latter days in order for God to display his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 38:16, 21-23, Ezekiel 39: 1-22).
It is in the latter years. Not back before the time of Jesus.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.



_________________________________
Gog/Magog,
then the 7 years of Daniel 9:27
ending with Armageddon at Jesus's return
________________________________
feast on Gog's army dead - Ezekiel 39:4
then the 7 years of burning the weapons of war
feast on Armageddon dead - Ezekiel 39:17-20
_____________________________
Gog/Magog - God makes it clear that He is not Allah
Then the 7 years. Halfway through, the Antichrist claims to be God.
Armageddon - Jesus, returns as King of Kings, Lord of Lords
 
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Douggg

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Hello claninja.
There is only one great day of the Lord God Almighty, correct?
If that is the case, then Armageddon and Gog/Magog would have to be that same battle. Armagedding is 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem IMHO........

What are your thoughts and/or others thoughts on that?
[please post and vote on my poll thread. Thanks]
Edit to add: I just noticed you voted "yes? on that thread claninja.......thanks for voting.

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?


Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whold home-land<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the Day, the Great, of the God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein<4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and Magog/magwg <3098>,
to be together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein<4863>(5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Sea<2281>[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Revelation 19:17
And I another Messenger having stood<2476> in the sun,
and he cries-out<2896> in great voice, saying to all the birds/orneoiV <3732>, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither<1205>! be ye being gathered!/sun-agesqe <4863> (5744) into the great Supper of the GOD.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings and fleshes of thousand-chiefs<5506> and fleshes of strong ones, and fleshes of horses and of the ones sitting on them and fleshes of all free ones<1658> besides also slaves<1401> and of small ones and of great ones<3173>
......["sacrifice on mountains of Israel" Zephaniah 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?
Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Oct 29, 2009.

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

  1. I view them as the same event
    15 vote(s)
    21.7%
  2. I view them as different events
    43 vote(s)
    62.3%
  3. I am not sure
    7 vote(s)
    10.1%
  4. Does it really matter?
    4 vote(s)
    5.8%
Has it ever occurred to you that the 42 months (twice), the 1260 days (twice), and the time, times, half time in Revelation are components of the 7 years following Gog/Magog of burning the weapons of Gog's army (Ezekiel 39:9).

And then at the end of those 7 years, as the 7 years in Revelation (the components), is the Armageddon event, in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

??????
 
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iamlamad

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They all relate to 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
G4930
συντέλεια (synteleia) occurs 6 times in 6 verses
5 verses in Matthew and 1 verse in Hebrews.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end/consummation<4930> of the Age?

4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together (but much closer than 3326 or 3844), i.e. by association............
5055. teleo from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act

Heb 9:26
since it had behoved Him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full-end<4930> of the ages, for putting away of sin through His sacrifice, He hath been manifested;
=======================================
Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: Biblehub

Meyer's NT Commentary
καὶ συντελ. τοῦ αἰῶνος]
In the Gospels we find no trace of the millenarian ideas of the Apocalypse.
The τοῦ αἰῶνος, with the article, but not further defined, is to be understood as referring to the existing, the then current age of the world, i.e. to the αἰὼν οὗτος, which is brought to a close (συντέλεια) with the second coming, inasmuch as, with this latter event, the αἰὼν μέλλων begins. See on Matthew 13:39. The second coming, the resurrection and the last judgment, fall upon the ἐσχάτη ἡμέρα (John 6:39; John 11:24), which, as it will be the last day of the αἰὼν οὗτος in general, so of the ἐσχάτων ἡμερῶν (Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Jam 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3) in particular, or of the καιρὸς ἔσχατος (1 Peter 1:5), or of the χρόνος ἔσχατος (Judges 1:18; 1 Peter 1:20), which John likewise calls the ἐσχάτη ὥρα (1 John 2:18). This concluding period, which terminates with the last day, is to be characterized by abounding distress and wickedness (see on Galatians 1:4). The article was unnecessary before συντελείας, seeing that it is followed by the genitive of specification; Winer, p. 118 f. [E. T. 155].
=================================
Pulpit Commentary
Sign of thy coming (τῆς σῆς παρουσίας), and of the end of the world (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος).
They look upon these two events as synchronous, or very closely connected. The word parousia, which in classical Greek means "presence," or "arrival," is used in the New Testament specially for the second advent of Christ to set up his eternal kingdom in full power and glory (see in this chapter vers. 27, 37, 39; and comp. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, etc.). Referring to the same event, we find in some places the term "epiphany" used (see 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1), and in others "revelation" (ἀποκάλυψις, 1 Corinthians 1:7; 2 Thessalonians 1:7); but the three expressions denote simply the open establishment of Messiah's kingdom, indefnitely as to time and manner.

The phrase translated "the end of the world "means literally the consummation of the age (cf. Matthew 13:39; Hebrews 9:26); consummationis saeculi (Vulgate); i.e. the close of this present seen, in contradistinction from the future aeon, or the world to come. This is "the last time," "the last days," spoken of elsewhere (see 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; and comp. Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1).
They all relate to 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple. You have an extremely minority view here. The vast majority of the church believes this is future. As I said before, you are going to be shocked when the trumpets begin to sound. But you will be even more shocked when the rapture takes place and you are left behind. He is coming only for those expecting Him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
They all relate to 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
They all relate to 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem and the Temple. You have an extremely minority view here. The vast majority of the church believes this is future. As I said before, you are going to be shocked when the trumpets begin to sound. But you will be even more shocked when the rapture takes place and you are left behind. He is coming only for those expecting Him.
The vast majority of the 1st century pre 70ad Christian Jewish church also viewed it as future and so weren't shocked when Jesus's prophecy became fulfilled in 70ad.

Please visit my "time is nigh" and will happen "in swiftness" thread. Thank you.

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY


Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Did James and Peter deceive the 1st century Christian Jewish church?
When were these Epistles written?

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia<3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>;

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Revelation 1:1
An-un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the time/season is nigh<1451>

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2002_green_time-indicators.html

AD70 Dispensationalism: According to that view, AD70 was the end of 'this age' and the start of the 'age to come'. Those who lived before AD70 could only 'see in part' and such, lacking the resurrection and redemptive blessings which supposedly came only when Herod's Temple in Jerusalem fell. Accordingly, AD70 was not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it was also the end of the revelation of Christianity as seen in the New Testament.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_geiser_greek-words.html
Greek Word Studies: Time Substantives

By Charles Geiser

There are at least five Greek terms denoting relative time factors in regards to "near future" events prophesied to take place within the first century milieu or genea (see Matthew 24:34). We think that many who have skirted the topic of Bible prophecy, or gone much further into it in their studies, may believe that those who have accepted a preterist chronology are isolated and very much in the minority. thus, we have done some research into several terms and have comments from a few lexicographers which may reveal some concepts heretofore unknown to some.

Enguteron

This adverb is a hapax, i.e., found only once in the New Testament. It is translated "nearer" in the King James Version in Romans 13:11b. An interesting observation first, however, is that in 13:11a, "high time" in the King James Version should read translated, "and this, knowing the time, it is now an HOUR for you to be raised out of sleep," hoti hoora eedee humas ex hupnou egertheenai.... Compare John in writing his first epistle a few years later from Romans, "young children, a last hour it is," paidia, eschatee hoora estin...While Jesus was on earth He said, "marvel not at this, because is coming an hour in which all the ones in the tombs will hear the voice of him and will come forth the (ones) the good things having done to a resurrection of life, the (ones) the evil things having done to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28, 29). In sequence then, in that first century setting, Jesus said an hour was coming. Paul says 28 years later it is now an hour for the Roman saints to be raised out of sleep, and John a few years after that said it was the last hour. Thus, we have this time element with the term hoora or hour indicating nearness and agreeing very well with Romans 13:11b.
As mentioned, this adverb is derived from another adverb engus (next in our study), being a comparative in usage (Harper, Thayer, Vine, Liddel & Scott, and Arndt & Gingrich, under the term). The rendering here is favored by the word order in Romans 13:11b, "Salvation is nearer to us than when we believed." "The reference is apparently to the Lord's second coming, rather than to future glory" (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, p. 747)."More specifically, eschatology now gives greater intensity to the exhortation, so that one occasionally speaks of a watchman's cry" (E. Kasemann, Commentary on Romans, p. 362; comments on 11-14; compare J. Weiss, "Beitrage," 245; Michel; Balz, TDNT, VIII, 554). "Certainly it is apparent here (Romans 13:11, CG) that imminent expectation was originally the basis of Christian admonition" (Grabner-Haider, Paraklese, 108ff.). We suggest that the salvation of the Roman saints was nearer than when they first believed because the second advent, the establishment of the kingdom of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment day (compare Romans 13:12a) were all nearer in collation to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.70 (look at Luke 21:28-32; Greek translation of Hebrews 1:14).

Engus

This adverb is variously translated "nigh," "near," at hand," "nigh at hand," "from," and "ready" in the King James Version. It is found some thirty times in the New Testament. It is "nigh" in such places as Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:29; Luke 19:11; John 6:4; Acts 9:38; Romans 10:8; Hebrews 6:8. It is translated "at hand" in Matthew 26:18; John 2:13; 7:2; Philippians 4:5; Revelation 1:3; 22:10. It is "near" in Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:28; John 3:23; 11:54. It is "nigh at hand" in Luke 21:30,31; John 11:55; 19:42. "From" in Acts 1:12; and "ready" in Hebrews 8:13b (this last passage literally becomes "(is) near vanishing" in reference to the first covenant or diatheekee.

Harper's Greek Lexicon says the term translates "near" (p.111). Liddell & Scott says "of time, nigh at hand" (p.189). Thayer remarks under the term that "it concerns things imminent and soon to come to pass. "Summer," Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30. Of the coming crucifixion, Matthew 26:18. (Writer's note: does this term giving us "near" mean the same in Revelation 22:10 as it does in Matthew 26:18? No doubt about it in the Matthew passage, why doubt in Revelation passage?) Of the kingdom of God, Luke 21:21 (apply Luke 21:31 with Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:27,28 rather than Mark 9:1 with Acts 2!) In reference to time, Revelation 1:3c. Of the near advent of persons: of Christ's return from heaven, ho kurios engus, Philippians 4:5. With the addition epi thurais, at the door ("it"), Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29. Near to being cursed, engus kataras, Hebrews 6:8. Soon to vanish (the covenant), aphanismou, Hebrews 8:13 (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, pp. 164,165).

"The term with echon (Acts 1:12), present participle neuter of echoo, to have, R.V., 'nigh unto...off' (KJV 'from' nigh unto' with reference to death, Philippians 2:27) is the neuter of the adjective parapleesios, near, nearly resembling" (Vine, New Testament Words, under "Hand," "nigh," "Near," "Ready"). Arndt & Gingrich on a few passages: of the parousia, Philippians 4:5; compare I Clement 21:3. "The word is close to you," engus sou to hreema estin, explained by what follows, Romans 10:8. "At (your) very door," engus epi thurais, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29 (Greek Lexicon, p.213). "Drawing nigh" (John 6:19) is literally "becoming nigh" (Wycliff, "to be made next to the boat"). Romans 10:8 to Vincent, "very nigh thee is the word." Hebrews 8:13 would read, "is nigh unto vanishing" (referring to the first covenant). the whole phrase would translate "but that which is becoming old and waxing aged is nigh unto vanishing" (see Vincent, Word Studies, under all verses under "Engus," II).
 
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Who got helped by the knowledge in Revelation if all has been fulfilled by 70 AD? I thought that knowledge was suppose to help somebody.
There are four views of the book of Revelation.The most popular view is dispensational futurist which came about in the late 19th century. The other views are more in line with orthodox Christianity. This view dates the book of Revelation around 66AD. The book tells you who it was written to as well as when it is to take place. One just needs to search scripture more carefully.
 
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Matt5 said:
Who got helped by the knowledge in Revelation if all has been fulfilled by 70 AD? I thought that knowledge was suppose to help somebody.
There are four views of the book of Revelation.The most popular view is dispensational futurist which came about in the late 19th century. The other views are more in line with orthodox Christianity. This view dates the book of Revelation around 66AD. The book tells you who it was written to as well as when it is to take place. One just needs to search scripture more carefully.
Hello M B.
It could be even earlier than that [but then what is most important to the Jews, is not when if was visioned or written, but what it is symbolizing.
Notice that Stephen vision Jesus "Son of Man" standing at the side of God and His throne.
I brought this up on another thread and got no answer to it:

What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

iamlamad said:
Perhaps He did not see the ascent, but he saw the arrival AFTER the ascent. Thanks for pointing that out. He saw the sudden arrival of Jesus back in the throne room.
Readers: keep in mind these verses must be understood in their context of Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father and the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room.

===========================
This would have to have been after Jesus' ascension in Acts 1!
This shows Jesus "standing", as if in judgement on the 1st century corrupt murderous Judeans.
This was years before 70ad and the start of the Jewish Wars/Rebellion in 66AD I believe.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66

Acts 7:1
And the High-priest said, "are these things so?"

54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and said, "behold! I see the heavens having been opened/ διηνοιγμένους<455>
and the Son of Man standing out of rights of the God!"
Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a Son, a male, Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in rod/staff, iron.
And is caught-away the Child of her toward<4314> the God, and toward the throne of Him. [John 7:11]

Acts 7:56 Commentaries:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

56. the Son of man] This title, which in the Gospels is only used by Christ when speaking of Himself, is here first employed by another, and can fitly be so employed now, for the prophecy which Christ uttered of Himself (Matthew 26:64), “Hereafter ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,” is now fulfilled, and its fulfilment is to be preached to the world.
=========================
Bengel's Gnomen
Acts 7:56. Ἰδοὺ, Behold) A confession of faith flowing from a present experimental proof. [From this very moment the eternal life shone upon Stephen more strongly than heretofore.—V. g.]—θεωρῶ, I see) It was not the province of his enemies to see, but to believe, if they had had faith.—τοὺς οὐρανοὺς, the heavens) This expresses more than heaven, in Acts 7:55.—τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, the Son of man) Luke in the preceding ver. calls Him Jesus. Not Luke, but Stephen, saw Jesus. Comp. note on Matthew 16:13 as to the appellation, Song of Solomon of man. [An appellation which none but Christ employed, and of Himself during His life. Nor is it found in the twenty-one Epistles.] The article refers to Daniel 7:13. As Adam is the representative of all his fallen offspring; so Jesus, the second Adam, is the representative-man of all the redeemed sons of men, sustaining their rights and primogeniture. 1 Corinthians 15:47; Hebrews 2:11, where the article is not added, the words being those of David, not Paul. It expresses His manifested state, both the past one in lowliness, and the present and future one in exaltation, as Stephen sees Him, and as He shall appear.
=================
MacLaren's Expositions
Acts

STEPHEN’S VISION

Acts 7:56.

I. The vision of the Son of Man, or the abiding manhood of Jesus.

Stephen’s Greek name, and his belonging to the Hellenistic part of the Church, make it probable that he had never seen Jesus during His earthly life. If so, how beautiful that he should thus see and recognise Him! How significant, in any case, is it he should instinctively have taken on his lips that name, ‘the Son of Man,’ to designate Him whom he saw, through the opened heavens, standing on the right hand of God! We remember that in the same Council-chamber and before the same court, Jesus had lashed the rulers into a paroxysm of fury by declaring, ‘Hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power,’ and now here is one of His followers, almost, as it were, flinging in their teeth the words which they had called ‘blasphemy,’ and witnessing that he, at all events, saw their partial fulfilment. They saw only the roof of the chamber, or, if the Council met in the open court of the Temple, the quivering blue of the Syrian sky; but to him the blue was parted, and a brighter light than that of its lustre was flashed upon his inward eye. His words roused them to an even wilder outburst than those of Jesus had set loose, and with yells of fury, and stopping their ears that they might not hear the blasphemy, they flung themselves on him, unresisting, and dragged him to his doom. Their passion is a measure of the preciousness to the Christian consciousness of that which Stephen saw, and said that he saw.
 
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Thanks for your feedback. I think a lot of people won't like what I've written. It certainly would be better if I were wrong.

Concerning the 1st seal:

"he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

That's rather odd language. It sounds like this king was not always successful. Also, why does that horse come out at the start of the tribulation?


The rider on the white horse will conquer by means different than what we would understand conquering to be. He will not assume his power by force necessarily but through deception and ingenious manipulation. He will also be making promises and offers that will sound too good and compelling to turn away. There is much more to be said about him but it is best saved for another thread.

The reason why this rider appears at the start of the tribulation is because that which has been delaying the time of the tribulation and which has kept the Anti-Christ from revealing himself will be taken out of the way when that day comes. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)
 
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iamlamad

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The vast majority of the 1st century pre 70ad Christian Jewish church also viewed it as future and so weren't shocked when Jesus's prophecy became fulfilled in 70ad.

Please visit my "time is nigh" and will happen "in swiftness" thread. Thank you.

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY


Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Did James and Peter deceive the 1st century Christian Jewish church?
When were these Epistles written?

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia<3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>;

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Revelation 1:1
An-un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the time/season is nigh<1451>

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2002_green_time-indicators.html

AD70 Dispensationalism: According to that view, AD70 was the end of 'this age' and the start of the 'age to come'. Those who lived before AD70 could only 'see in part' and such, lacking the resurrection and redemptive blessings which supposedly came only when Herod's Temple in Jerusalem fell. Accordingly, AD70 was not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it was also the end of the revelation of Christianity as seen in the New Testament.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_geiser_greek-words.html
Greek Word Studies: Time Substantives


By Charles Geiser

There are at least five Greek terms denoting relative time factors in regards to "near future" events prophesied to take place within the first century milieu or genea (see Matthew 24:34). We think that many who have skirted the topic of Bible prophecy, or gone much further into it in their studies, may believe that those who have accepted a preterist chronology are isolated and very much in the minority. thus, we have done some research into several terms and have comments from a few lexicographers which may reveal some concepts heretofore unknown to some.

Enguteron

This adverb is a hapax, i.e., found only once in the New Testament. It is translated "nearer" in the King James Version in Romans 13:11b. An interesting observation first, however, is that in 13:11a, "high time" in the King James Version should read translated, "and this, knowing the time, it is now an HOUR for you to be raised out of sleep," hoti hoora eedee humas ex hupnou egertheenai.... Compare John in writing his first epistle a few years later from Romans, "young children, a last hour it is," paidia, eschatee hoora estin...While Jesus was on earth He said, "marvel not at this, because is coming an hour in which all the ones in the tombs will hear the voice of him and will come forth the (ones) the good things having done to a resurrection of life, the (ones) the evil things having done to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28, 29). In sequence then, in that first century setting, Jesus said an hour was coming. Paul says 28 years later it is now an hour for the Roman saints to be raised out of sleep, and John a few years after that said it was the last hour. Thus, we have this time element with the term hoora or hour indicating nearness and agreeing very well with Romans 13:11b.
As mentioned, this adverb is derived from another adverb engus (next in our study), being a comparative in usage (Harper, Thayer, Vine, Liddel & Scott, and Arndt & Gingrich, under the term). The rendering here is favored by the word order in Romans 13:11b, "Salvation is nearer to us than when we believed." "The reference is apparently to the Lord's second coming, rather than to future glory" (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, p. 747)."More specifically, eschatology now gives greater intensity to the exhortation, so that one occasionally speaks of a watchman's cry" (E. Kasemann, Commentary on Romans, p. 362; comments on 11-14; compare J. Weiss, "Beitrage," 245; Michel; Balz, TDNT, VIII, 554). "Certainly it is apparent here (Romans 13:11, CG) that imminent expectation was originally the basis of Christian admonition" (Grabner-Haider, Paraklese, 108ff.). We suggest that the salvation of the Roman saints was nearer than when they first believed because the second advent, the establishment of the kingdom of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment day (compare Romans 13:12a) were all nearer in collation to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.70 (look at Luke 21:28-32; Greek translation of Hebrews 1:14).

Engus

This adverb is variously translated "nigh," "near," at hand," "nigh at hand," "from," and "ready" in the King James Version. It is found some thirty times in the New Testament. It is "nigh" in such places as Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:29; Luke 19:11; John 6:4; Acts 9:38; Romans 10:8; Hebrews 6:8. It is translated "at hand" in Matthew 26:18; John 2:13; 7:2; Philippians 4:5; Revelation 1:3; 22:10. It is "near" in Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:28; John 3:23; 11:54. It is "nigh at hand" in Luke 21:30,31; John 11:55; 19:42. "From" in Acts 1:12; and "ready" in Hebrews 8:13b (this last passage literally becomes "(is) near vanishing" in reference to the first covenant or diatheekee.

Harper's Greek Lexicon says the term translates "near" (p.111). Liddell & Scott says "of time, nigh at hand" (p.189). Thayer remarks under the term that "it concerns things imminent and soon to come to pass. "Summer," Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30. Of the coming crucifixion, Matthew 26:18. (Writer's note: does this term giving us "near" mean the same in Revelation 22:10 as it does in Matthew 26:18? No doubt about it in the Matthew passage, why doubt in Revelation passage?) Of the kingdom of God, Luke 21:21 (apply Luke 21:31 with Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:27,28 rather than Mark 9:1 with Acts 2!) In reference to time, Revelation 1:3c. Of the near advent of persons: of Christ's return from heaven, ho kurios engus, Philippians 4:5. With the addition epi thurais, at the door ("it"), Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29. Near to being cursed, engus kataras, Hebrews 6:8. Soon to vanish (the covenant), aphanismou, Hebrews 8:13 (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, pp. 164,165).

"The term with echon (Acts 1:12), present participle neuter of echoo, to have, R.V., 'nigh unto...off' (KJV 'from' nigh unto' with reference to death, Philippians 2:27) is the neuter of the adjective parapleesios, near, nearly resembling" (Vine, New Testament Words, under "Hand," "nigh," "Near," "Ready"). Arndt & Gingrich on a few passages: of the parousia, Philippians 4:5; compare I Clement 21:3. "The word is close to you," engus sou to hreema estin, explained by what follows, Romans 10:8. "At (your) very door," engus epi thurais, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29 (Greek Lexicon, p.213). "Drawing nigh" (John 6:19) is literally "becoming nigh" (Wycliff, "to be made next to the boat"). Romans 10:8 to Vincent, "very nigh thee is the word." Hebrews 8:13 would read, "is nigh unto vanishing" (referring to the first covenant). the whole phrase would translate "but that which is becoming old and waxing aged is nigh unto vanishing" (see Vincent, Word Studies, under all verses under "Engus," II).
All your Greek will not change the many English translations we have today. Did you not realize that God is a SELF-REVEALING God and over time reveals more and more of Himself? The church knows MUCH more about God know than 1st Century believers. I still say you are in a TINY minority.

Please tell me: are you watching for Jesus coming? Do you believe He could come now?
 
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iamlamad

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The rider on the white horse will conquer by means different than what we would understand conquering to be. He will not assume his power by force necessarily but through deception and ingenious manipulation. He will also be making promises and offers that will sound too good and compelling to turn away. There is much more to be said about him but it is best saved for another thread.

The reason why this rider appears at the start of the tribulation is because that which has been delaying the time of the tribulation and which has kept the Anti-Christ from revealing himself will be taken out of the way when that day comes. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)
You are pulling the first seal out of its 1st century context! That is a no no! Go back and read in chapter 5 where John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - circa 32 AD.

The first seal is RIGHTEOUS. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - every OTHER time to represent the righteousness of the saints. Why would ANYONE imagine John (backed by the Holy Spirit) would use white once for something evil? Never never never never happen!

The first seal is the CHURCH (the only righteous entity on earth at that time) sent out with the GOSPEL. Of course there would have to be overcoming (conquering) because Satan is the god of this world. He does all in his power to stop the gospel.
 
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iamlamad said:
Perhaps He did not see the ascent, but he saw the arrival AFTER the ascent. Thanks for pointing that out. He saw the sudden arrival of Jesus back in the throne room.
Readers: keep in mind these verses must be understood in their context of Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father and the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room.

===========================
This would have to have been after Jesus' ascension in Acts 1!
This shows Jesus "standing", as if in judgement on the 1st century corrupt murderous Judeans.
This was years before 70ad and the start of the Jewish Wars/Rebellion in 66AD I believe.
...
NO, of course it would not have to be after His ascension in Acts 1. He ascended (the first time) as soon as He sent Mary away. Agreed: It should be clear to the readers that Jesus stood because Stephen was being killed.
 
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You are pulling the first seal out of its 1st century context! That is a no no! Go back and read in chapter 5 where John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - circa 32 AD.

The first seal is RIGHTEOUS. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - every OTHER time to represent the righteousness of the saints. Why would ANYONE imagine John (backed by the Holy Spirit) would use white once for something evil? Never never never never happen!

The first seal is the CHURCH (the only righteous entity on earth at that time) sent out with the GOSPEL. Of course there would have to be overcoming (conquering) because Satan is the god of this world. He does all in his power to stop the gospel.


The Church is never represented as a conquering king. The only figure the scripture uses to represent the church is a bride. Because John’s visions are of things to come, the only context in which the seals can be placed is within a time that is yet to come. The church was already presently established and at work spreading the Gospel when John wrote the book of Revelation and therefore cannot be represented by the first seal.

While the color of white is used as a symbol of purity and righteousness, in the case of the first seal, John saw a figure who may have appeared righteous but was in fact a counterfeit to Christ. When comparing the figure of the first seal to Christ at His second coming, there are some similarities, but differences that set the true Messiah apart from the fake.

If the first seal is the church spreading the Gospel, then what is setting off the other seals, all of which are global cataclysms since all the seals appear to be connected to one another? What is hard to understand about the seals is where about in the coming tribulation there placement is. All we know is that their placement is at the beginning of the tribulation and possibly taking place throughout.

At best, the seals are simply laying out a synopsis about what is to take place in the tribulation into which the rest of the book of Revelation and other scriptures that deal with end-time events go into greater detail.
 
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The Church is never represented as a conquering king. The only figure the scripture uses to represent the church is a bride. Because John’s visions are of things to come, the only context in which the seals can be placed is within a time that is yet to come. The church was already presently established and at work spreading the Gospel when John wrote the book of Revelation and therefore cannot be represented by the first seal.

While the color of white is used as a symbol of purity and righteousness, in the case of the first seal, John saw a figure who may have appeared righteous but was in fact a counterfeit to Christ. When comparing the figure of the first seal to Christ at His second coming, there are some similarities, but differences that set the true Messiah apart from the fake.

If the first seal is the church spreading the Gospel, then what is setting off the other seals, all of which are global cataclysms since all the seals appear to be connected to one another? What is hard to understand about the seals is where about in the coming tribulation there placement is. All we know is that their placement is at the beginning of the tribulation and possibly taking place throughout.

At best, the seals are simply laying out a synopsis about what is to take place in the tribulation into which the rest of the book of Revelation and other scriptures that deal with end-time events go into greater detail.
The first seal does not mention a "conquering King." We ALL will get crowns. Remember, this is a very symbolic book. We must account that many things will not be presented literally. They will be presented symbolically. Did God ever call the INFANT church a bride? I think not. Anyway, HERE the church is represented as a conquering power that will be victorious.

John's visions don't necessarily ALL have to be "things to come." That theory is myth. God CERTAINLY showed John "things to come" so satisfied that verse.

"the only context in which the seals can be placed is within a time that is yet to come." This is myth because your first statement was myth. God most certainly allowed Himself freedom to include some history with his foretelling. Yours is a theory; it just can't be backed up by scripture correctly understood.

The church was already presently established and at work spreading the Gospel when John wrote the book of Revelation and therefore cannot be represented by the first seal.a
Then you TOTALLY MISSED the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5 that set the timing of the first seal as the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I did not write chapter 5, JOHN wrote it by the Holy Spirit.

Question: WHEN did Jesus send down the Holy Spirit?

John saw a figure who may have appeared righteous but was in fact a counterfeit to Christ. Whoa BACK! GOD is showing John this vision and it is going to be EXACTLY what God wanted John to see! What you are saying is, GOD chose to use white 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. NEVER NEVER NEVER happen! God chose the color of evil and it was fiery red!

You cannot escape the CONTEXT: Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room (where He had been absent) and then sent the Holy Spirit down. My friend, this NAILS the time down to 32 AD. Jesus went immediately to get the book and then started opening the seals. the ONLY way we can tell when He stopped opening is by the context of the seals themselves. The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age, and people are still be added, so that is where we are today.

The seals are ONLY connected because they are sealing a book. Jesus is who is opening the seals, one by one. It seems He opened seals 1 through 5 right then.

If you wish to know, the church is waiting at the 5th seal church martyrs: when the last martyr is killed, the rapture will take place, ending the church age, and starting the Day of the Lord and God's wrath upon the earth. Then (probably 10 days later) the 7th seal will begin the 70th week.

Notice that God's "goal" is to get the book opened. It contains the trumpet judgments and at the 7th trumpet, Satan is FINALLY kicked off his usurped throne as god of this world. Finally God gets His planet back!

Synopsis: God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book, but He wanted to start the story while the book was still in the right hand of the Father. That would mean He would have to start the story in John's HISTORY. Without a doubt the book was in the hand of the Father before Jesus rose from the dead; perhaps before He left heaven to be born from a Virgin. It was 95 AD: God had to show "somehow" that it was history John was seeing. I don't know why God chose to use symbols. But that is what we have to work with. So He showed this:
  • A throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father.
  • The Holy Spirit IN the throne room - when Jesus had said that He would send Him down.
  • A search for one worthy to open the book - that ended in failure.
  • TIME passing
  • A search that found JESUS worthy
  • Jesus suddenly appearing back in the throne room He had left 32 years before.
How would YOU have written it?
 
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eleos1954

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Right, but the Lord will have His say; Ezekiel 7:14 They have blown the trumpet and made ready, [for war] but no one goes to war, as their turmoil has brought forth the wrath of God. Psalms 11:4-6

Re the Seals, from all the terrible wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters that the world has experienced since the 1st century, we can be sure those Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension.
Proved by how all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 We await the Sixth Seal to change the world and set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

we can be sure those Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension - Disagree somewhat - I think the seals have been opening over the course of history.

"We await the Sixth Seal to change the world and set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns " I agree here, I think we are sitting at Revelation 6:13, with the return of our Lord beginning with Revelation 6:14

The seven seals seam to repeat the same history as the seven churches, but with a different emphasis. And the seven horses seem to be following that history as well but are depicted symbolically. Then, the seven trumpets seem to cover the same basic timeline but with its own distinctive focus (warnings).

John's vision

Revelation 1:19

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

historical & present (within Johns life time) and future components

“The time is at hand.” Revelation contains prophetic messages needed by the church (believers in Christ) in John’s day, by the church throughout its history and for us as
individual christians today.

Philippians 3:20

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

Amen!
 
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claninja

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It is in the latter years. Not back before the time of Jesus.

Jesus appeared in the latter years

Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Peter believed it was the last days

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.


1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

Paul states the end of the ages had come upon them

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come

John stated it was the last hour

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

James stated the coming of the Lord was at hand, and even stated the judge was standing (present tense) at the door.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

The disciples believed it was the latter times, this is clear, as evidenced above.

It was to be in the latter days that God would bring Gog against the land, so that the nations would know Him.

Ezekiel 38:16 You will advance against My people Israel like a cloud covering the land. It will happen in the last days, O Gog, that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I show Myself holy in you before their eyes.

Thus Gog would be brought against Israel, after the Babylonian exile, in the latter days (1st century according to the apostles) so that the nations would know God.
 
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