Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Lords Man · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
If one remains in the light, there will be no more sin to cleanse.
Men cannot hop back and forth between light and darkness, though they may think they can.
Those in darkness, sin, cannot say they have fellowship with God. (1 John 1:6)

I think that people do not understand that there are two basic forms of sin; commission and omission. Commission is doing that we ought not do. Omission is failing to do that which ought to do. Nobody can honestly claim that the are perfect. Thus they must admit to one or the other sorts of sins or, as is usually the case, both.

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
I'm sorry you had to dilute scripture with your additions.
If the bible says one who is born of God doesn't commit sin, it means no sin at all.
Or are you saying that fig trees CAN bring forth grapes?
Seeds only bring forth of their own kind...including God's seed from which men are to be reborn.

Is there a verse that says Jesus died for those that could perfectly keep the Law upon salvation, and no one else?

If there is... what would this say about the impotence of Christ’s blood to save only the future Sinless, before death?

If a Christian believes physical failure separates them from Jesus Christ, after His death has atoned for their “past” sins... does Jesus have to be Crucified again to pay for their future sins?

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I’m in blunt mode now. No scripture provided to contest my stance, but actually a statement of agreement.

I do agree that those pretending to be righteous did reject Jesus.

Sin is charged by the Law and nothing else per Scripture. Sin reigned before the Law... but the Law became its measuring stick.

I agree, though I would probably use another word than "charged".

When one declares themself Sinless and places that burden on others (Apart from Christ’s imputed Righteousness)... they are as Romans 10:3 and Galatians 5:4 states.

I'ld like to print out Rom 10:3..."For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
And add Rom 10:11..."For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
Some have now submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
They have no sin to be ashamed of.
Or do you feel that nobody, still, has submitted themselves to God's righteousness?

To be more blunt... scripture can be provided to those of sinless doctrine like Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8-10, but they change it’s context and Scriptural exegetic meaning to promote self righteousness.

I thought you had Rom 7 figured out?
Back tracking, are you?
1 John 1 and Romans 7 are used unsuccessfully to meld wickedness into the Lord's body, the church.
And we all know there is no wickedness in Christ...the Body.
And it isn't self-righteousness.
It is the righteousness of God that some have submitted to.

It is an idea that exalts one’s personal standing with God and vocally degrades others.

If submission to God's righteousness rubs you the wrong way, then it isn't for you.
Keep going about establishing your own righteousness.

I’ll be waiting for the scripture that supports that Jesus daughter out the “Sinless”.

Do you want to edit that?

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Lords Man said:
So you are sinless???? I hope for your sake that you answer no. Otherwise you contradict plain Scripture: 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Jesus taught us to pray, forgive us our (sins) as we forgive those who sin against us" (Matthew 6:12). Did Jesus deceive us?? Beware of being a messenger for doctrines of demons.

Well, cats out of the bag. People think Satan is out... pardon the pun “raising hell”... but the Truth revealed that Satan is the most Self Righteous being... to ever live. The Pharisees and Judas were literal pictures of the Devil’s soldiers and the doctrine of sinless perfection taught and professed was literally labeled “The Leavening”... by Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior.

No false doctrine in scripture, has its own name... coined by God. But, Sinless perfection indeed does.

What did Jesus say on the matter?

John 8:44

I direct this towards no human being, but doctrinally speaking... it is a matter that should always receive immediate attention.

I pray no one sincerely misses that “you shall be like God” and “I will be like the most High”... go hand in hand!

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Lords Man said:
I think that people do not understand that there are two basic forms of sin; commission and omission. Commission is doing that we ought not do. Omission is failing to do that which ought to do. Nobody can honestly claim that the are perfect. Thus they must admit to one or the other sorts of sins or, as is usually the case, both.

So, according to you, we are still living in the OT and bound by the Mosaic Law.
Jesus commanded us to be perfect. (Matt 5:48)
He made it possible with rebirth...the death and burial of the old man at our baptism into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-6) "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Paul admonishes on the topic...
" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
So does Peter...
”For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Pet.2:21-22)
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
James and John contribute in there letters too.
How is it that the concept of living in obedience to God is so foreign to you?

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
I do agree that those pretending to be righteous did reject Jesus.

I agree, though I would probably use another word than "charged".

I'ld like to print out Rom 10:3..."For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
And add Rom 10:11..."For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
Some have now submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
They have no sin to be ashamed of.
Or do you feel that nobody, still, has submitted themselves to God's righteousness?

I thought you had Rom 7 figured out?
Back tracking, are you?
1 John 1 and Romans 7 are used unsuccessfully to meld wickedness into the Lord's body, the church.
And we all know there is no wickedness in Christ...the Body.
And it isn't self-righteousness.
It is the righteousness of God that some have submitted to.

If submission to God's righteousness rubs you the wrong way, then it isn't for you.
Keep going about establishing your own righteousness.

Do you want to edit that?

Islam is submission and man reaching for the god.

Christianity is God grasping rebellious, godless mankind.

He exalts the humble and lays the proud low.

As I said... verses can be quoted but Peter said it well... 2 Peter 3:16

Now, part of me hopes that a person that appears to be teaching heavy burdens is simply counting themselves in Christ and thus by imputed Righteousness Of God, speaking in the Armor...

It is by that hope that I sincerely direct the harsh verses to no one, but cling to faith hope and Love in Jesus Christ, our (Isaiah 43:11 ; Luke 2:11).

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
I do agree that those pretending to be righteous did reject Jesus.

I agree, though I would probably use another word than "charged".

I'ld like to print out Rom 10:3..."For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
And add Rom 10:11..."For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
Some have now submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
They have no sin to be ashamed of.
Or do you feel that nobody, still, has submitted themselves to God's righteousness?

I thought you had Rom 7 figured out?
Back tracking, are you?
1 John 1 and Romans 7 are used unsuccessfully to meld wickedness into the Lord's body, the church.
And we all know there is no wickedness in Christ...the Body.
And it isn't self-righteousness.
It is the righteousness of God that some have submitted to.

If submission to God's righteousness rubs you the wrong way, then it isn't for you.
Keep going about establishing your own righteousness.

Do you want to edit that?

Are you willing to declare all your works Skubala, like Paul?

Are you willing to sell all your Righteousness and give it to the “poor”... like Jesus?

Are you willing to be a “poor” fisher of men, instead of high dollar bait?

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Is there a verse that says Jesus died for those that could perfectly keep the Law upon salvation, and no one else?

Yes, Romans 8:1..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

If there is... what would this say about the impotence of Christ’s blood to save only the future Sinless, before death?

Sounds potent to me.
What did Peter say when he was questioned by the men whose hearts were pricked on the day of Pentecost?
TURN FROM SIN, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is no other means of salvation.
Romans 10:9, 13?
Done at baptism IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.

If a Christian believes physical failure separates them from Jesus Christ, after His death has atoned for their “past” sins... does Jesus have to be Crucified again to pay for their future sins?

Physical failure?
I won't be judged for tripping on the cat.
As for Jesus being crucified again...
It is written...4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6)

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
Yes, Romans 8:1..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Sounds potent to me.
What did Peter say when he was questioned by the men whose hearts were pricked on the day of Pentecost?
TURN FROM SIN, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is no other means of salvation.
Romans 10:9, 13?
Done at baptism IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.

Physical failure?
I won't be judged for tripping on the cat.
As for Jesus being crucified again...
It is written...4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6)

Tripping on the cat. Is this a declaration of speaking from imputed Armor Of Christ?

I would be releaved.

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
So, according to you, we are still living in the OT and bound by the Mosaic Law.
Jesus commanded us to be perfect. (Matt 5:48)
He made it possible with rebirth...the death and burial of the old man at our baptism into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-6) "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Paul admonishes on the topic...
" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
So does Peter...
”For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Pet.2:21-22)
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
James and John contribute in there letters too.
How is it that the concept of living in obedience to God is so foreign to you?

I am getting mixed messages from you. Are you Sinless by Christ’s imputed Righteousness, Alone? Your Flesh dead and buried?

Are you declaring yourself dead to the Law of Moses?

I’m crossing my fingers.

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Well, cats out of the bag. People think Satan is out... pardon the pun “raising hell”... but the Truth revealed that Satan is the most Self Righteous being... to ever live. The Pharisees and Judas were literal pictures of the Devil’s soldiers and the doctrine of sinless perfection taught and professed was literally labeled “The Leavening”... by Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior.
No false doctrine in scripture, has its own name... coined by God. But, Sinless perfection indeed does.
What did Jesus say on the matter?
John 8:44
I direct this towards no human being, but doctrinally speaking... it is a matter that should always receive immediate attention.
I pray no one sincerely misses that “you shall be like God” and “I will be like the most High”... go hand in hand!

Who said this..."That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
Hint...Jesus did.
Do you know which cat is really "out of the bag"?
The one that says we CAN live the way God wants.

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Tripping on the cat. Is this a declaration of speaking from imputed Armor Of Christ?

I would be releaved.

Derail.

Phil W · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I am getting mixed messages from you. Are you Sinless by Christ’s imputed Righteousness, Alone? Your Flesh dead and buried?

Yes.

Are you declaring yourself dead to the Law of Moses?

God declares it.
It is written..."For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.(Gal 2:19-21)
So where is the sinner in these verses?
Not dead to the law, that's for sure.

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
Yes.

God declares it.
It is written..."For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.(Gal 2:19-21)
So where is the sinner in these verses?
Not dead to the law, that's for sure.

Aha! You’re a tricky one! You must speak from the armor and laugh at the responses!

You’re a character... you!

Grip Docility · Jun 20, 2019

Phil W said:
Derail.

Rotfl... “Derail”

You knew where I was coming from and were difficult the whole time!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2019

def said:
What about justification by His grace, by works, and by His blood?

Sanctification by works of faith would be more precise.

Paul is quite clear when he spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he said that Justification is by faith in Christ alone, not of works. If a person is mixing works in with Justification, they are not saved, but are depending on good deeds to make them acceptable to God and are rejecting the finished work of Christ. You may need to re-read Romans a bit more carefully, because if you are mixing works with faith and expect to be saved, you are not, and are still on the road to hell.

I will agree with you that sanctification is through the works of faith, but they are still based on what you do as the result of being converted to Christ. The evidence of true justification by faith is the resultant desire to live a holy life as far as one is able, through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2019

def said:
Not necessary, only those who follow the leading of the Holy Spirit are called sons of God.

Only those who have been justified by faith and genuinely converted to Christ have the indwelling Holy Spirit. You have put the cart before the horse. I say that only those who are sons of God, the just who live by faith, are those who are led by the Spirit of God. An unconverted sinner cannot be led by the Holy Spirit because he doesn't have the Spirit at all.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
You can't show me any situation where God compels a loyal believer to obedience. I can show you where God feeds heavenly bread to all who come out of Egypt (indicated by confessing that serving it is worthless) and yet there were those who tasted spiritual food and drink (seen great works) fell away and were not able to repent, meta noia, be born again.

Luke 10:13
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes

Deuteronomy 8:14
then your heart will become proud, and you will forget the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Deuteronomy 10:21
He is your praise and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome wonders your eyes have seen.

Deuteronomy 32:18
You ignored the Rock who brought you forth; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Psalm 78:11
They forgot what He had done, the wonders He had shown them.

Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.

Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.

This doesn't apply to me because I have never lived in Egypt!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
John 15:1-10 is very clear that works are necessary to receive salvation.

Paul spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is the same as Jesus speaking, and he says that those who are depending on works to receive salvation are under a curse. He says if you are depending on works, you have to comply with every single law of God without exception right from childhood. One infraction of the Law will lead to condemnation.

I think that you need to consider whether you are trusting in the true gospel of Christ, and not another gospel.

mdamon0501 · Jun 20, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I fully appreciate what you have expressed.

I see the angels as Free like us. They align with God or pursue selfish interests.

I think of these verses in reference to Satan... through Spiritual reading... as identified by Carnal examples.

Ezekiel 26 ; Ezekiel 27 ; Ezekiel 28 ... though there are many more.

There is a Proverb I like to quote because I don't think it can get any more cut and dry.

Proverbs 16:4 NASB
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Consequently the very next verse is:

Proverbs 16:5 NASB
Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.

I think both the Old and New Testaments are clear on the idea, that giving credit to anything other than God is an abomination to him, because this entire creation has been brought into being to do one thing: Glorify Him.

Hence why he openly admits to being a jealous God. I think this is the proper way to deal with the term iniquity.

Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

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