Can you lose your salvation

Wordkeeper · Jun 19, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I agree, some people misunderstand James 2:21 the Greek word translated to “justified” not only mean to render or be counted as righteous but also to be evinced or shown as being righteous. James is talking about being shown as righteous not being made or counted as being righteous. Nevertheless works are still required to receive salvation according to John 15:1-10.

I agree works are needed to be finally saved.

Salvation starts by coming out of Egypt.
This leads to being fed heavenly bread.
Which requires allowing the seed to take root.
Next we must complete/perfect our faith like Abraham and the believers who gave up serving mammon by laying down everything at Peter's feet (IOW, we should not be like the rest of Israel, or the rich young ruler, or Judas, but, rather, like Joshua and Peter) .
Then we will be empowered like Joshua and Peter who were involved with signs and wonders, which led to Rahan and the jailer coming out of serving mammon.

This is the modus operandi, the stone which became the chief cornerstone, which the prophets had preached and had been rejected, Israel preferring to depend on circumcision, entitlement.

BNR32FAN · Jun 19, 2019

gradyll said:
works are not required for salvation. Otherwise faith is no longer faith. However repentance is required, but repentance is not works. Say for example that you were going against God, someone told you the gospel, and you started going toward God, that is what repentance means, it does not mean you are perfect or that you need to follow the law of moses, it means that you are giving God your life. And you are making Him savior and Lord. Intellectual assent is not faith. Faith is a trust that God can save you by the gift of salvation in Christ Jesus. Doing works for salvation is not trusting in Jesus work on the Cross. James does talk about justification before man. But it is also talking about fruit. Say for example you see a heathen living a life of sin, hiring prostititutes, engaging in homosexual sex, etc, there is no fruit there. That person has no works, and thus is not saved. But that is only in the negative. Not having fruit can mean you are not saved, but having fruit does not save. That is what I mean by it's only in the negative.

Bless you brother Grady, I would kindly like to share these words from Our Lord and Savior Himself.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The term “takes away” is actually an inaccurate translation. A more accurate translation is cut off for removed according to the Greek definition of the word used.

BNR32FAN · Jun 19, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
I agree works are needed to be finally saved.

Salvation starts by coming out of Egypt.

This leads to being fed heavenly bread.

Which requires allowing the seed to take root.

Next we must complete/perfect our faith like Abraham and the believers who gave up serving mammon by laying down everything at Peter's feet (IOW, we should not be like the rest of Israel, or the rich young ruler, or Judas, but, rather, like Joshua and Peter) .

Then we will be empowered like Joshua and Peter who were involved with signs and wonders, which led to Rahan and the jailer coming out of serving mammon.

This is the modus operandi, the stone which became the chief cornerstone, which the prophets had preached and had been rejected, Israel preferring to depend on circumcision, entitlement.

Works are merely an extension of love both towards God and others. Anyone who abides in Christ and Christ abides in him will bear much fruit. The person who says works are not necessary to receive salvation should ponder is love for God and others necessary for salvation. Love is the cause of works. It is Christ’s love abiding in us.

createdtoworship · Jun 19, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Bless you brother Grady, I would kindly like to share these words from Our Lord and Savior Himself.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The term “takes away” is actually an inaccurate translation. A more accurate translation is cut off for removed according to the Greek definition of the word used.

That is a great verse, I agree with it. I still don't think that fruit is required to be saved. But I do believe everyone who is saved will eventually bear fruit.

the bible also says the "bruised reed He will not break, nor will He quench the smoking flax."

basically meaning if we have a mustard seed faith, He will take that, and work with it. We don't have to be perfect to be saved, Just willing. If we are willing to work with God, He is willing to work with us.

it is important to stay away from works centered righteousness, as that is one of the few things that makes us different from mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. They both believe that works are required for salvation. But if it be of works, it is no longer faith. Romans 11:6

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[fn] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Romans 11:6

Wordkeeper · Jun 19, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Works are merely an extension of love both towards God and others. Anyone who abides in Christ and Christ abides in him will bear much fruit. The person who says works are not necessary to receive salvation should ponder is love for God and others necessary for salvation. Love is the cause of works. It is Christ’s love abiding in us.

John 15
13"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

TheSeabass · Jun 20, 2019

gradyll said:
That is a great verse, I agree with it. I still don't think that fruit is required to be saved. But I do believe everyone who is saved will eventually bear fruit.

the bible also says the "bruised reed He will not break, nor will He quench the smoking flax."

basically meaning if we have a mustard seed faith, He will take that, and work with it. We don't have to be perfect to be saved, Just willing. If we are willing to work with God, He is willing to work with us.

it is important to stay away from works centered righteousness, as that is one of the few things that makes us different from mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. They both believe that works are required for salvation. But if it be of works, it is no longer faith. Romans 11:6

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[fn] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Romans 11:6

There are verses that eliminate the perfect works required by the OT law from saving a person. (Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5)
There are verses that eliminate works of merit from saving a person. (Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:9)
There are verses that eliminate one doing his own righteousness from saving a person. (Romans 10:3)
Yet no one has ever shown the first verse that eliminates obedience to the will of God from saving a person.

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?" RL Whiteside 'A New Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to Saints in Rome'.

BNR32FAN · Jun 20, 2019

gradyll said:
That is a great verse, I agree with it. I still don't think that fruit is required to be saved. But I do believe everyone who is saved will eventually bear fruit.

the bible also says the "bruised reed He will not break, nor will He quench the smoking flax."

basically meaning if we have a mustard seed faith, He will take that, and work with it. We don't have to be perfect to be saved, Just willing. If we are willing to work with God, He is willing to work with us.

it is important to stay away from works centered righteousness, as that is one of the few things that makes us different from mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. They both believe that works are required for salvation. But if it be of works, it is no longer faith. Romans 11:6

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[fn] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Romans 11:6

Bless you friend, notice verse 2 and verse 6.

The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit.

Anyone that does not abide in me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

I believe this must refer to loss of salvation because the branches that are cut off from the vine are in Christ. The branches that fail to abide are attached to the vine. They cannot abide/remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with.

We must also remember that Jesus is speaking only to His 11 apostles at this time. They are the only ones present with him to receive this message. In verse 4 He tells them to abide in Him. This wouldn’t make any sense to tell them to abide in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide.

The entirety of the context is Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles of failing to abide in Him and explaining the consequences which result in loss of salvation. This is what the church has always taught since the beginning of Christianity. Even the earliest church writings dating back to 180AD support the idea that salvation can be lost.

BNR32FAN · Jun 20, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
No, the grammar of both the Greek and English say Paul was saying, "I am NOW the chief of sinners".

Here's the point ...

If I must DO a list of things AFTER I get saved TO REALLY BE SAVED or STAY saved, then I am working to STAY saved.

Look, if you are so shallow in your Bible knowledge that you don't even know things covered in Basic Doctrines 101, you just keep believing what you want ... I'll see you at the judgment.

John 15:1-10 Jesus said we must abide in Him and bear fruit otherwise we will be cut off from the vine (Christ) cast away to wither, and cast into the fire to be burned.

createdtoworship · Jun 20, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Yet no one has ever shown the first verse that eliminates obedience to the will of God from saving a person.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
John 6:29 nkjv

that verse eliminates obedience, as well as romans 4:2

just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

yes fruit is eventually required but not right away, there is room for those to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. Only God knows.

TheSeabass · Jun 20, 2019

gradyll said:
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
John 6:29 nkjv

Belief is a work of obedience that God has given man to do.

gradyII said:
that verse eliminates obedience, as well as romans 4:2

just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

yes fruit is eventually required but not right away, there is room for those to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. Only God knows.

The works in Romans 4:2 refer to the perfect, flawless works the OT required for one to be justified.

Abraham did do obedient works, Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:17 and was justified by works James 2:21-24.

Paul does not contradict himself, for Paul required obedience to be justified in Romans 6:16-18....they obeyed from the heart, then were freed from sin/justified.

In Romans 6:16 Paul says we are serving one of two masters, we are serving either:
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

As long as one is not obeying God, then one is serving sin unto death. The only solution the Bible gives to keep one from serving "sin unto death" is serving "obedience unto righteousness".

Wordkeeper · Jun 20, 2019

gradyll said:
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
John 6:29 nkjv

that verse eliminates obedience, as well as romans 4:2

just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

yes fruit is eventually required but not right away, there is room for those to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. Only God knows.

Funny you offered the verse as a proof that works are not required, considering the context. The question is asked, "What must we DO?"

John 6
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”

29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.

Pisteou is mistranslated as "believe", when in the Ancient Near East it meant "be loyal to". WHAT MUST WE DO? We must be loyal

Romans 4:2 explains that if Abraham had done something that had made a person greater or richer and for this he deserved to be part of that person's circle, he could have made that claim, but not in his interaction with God.

David says that the person who was accepted by God without considering his efforts was blessed.

In the ANE, both in OT and NT times, when a vassal responded with loyalty to a suzerain king, he was accepted into the king's inner circle. No one could give money or do anything worthy enough to enter the inner circle, because the king was so powerful and rich, he himself needing nothing. No one could boast that they had made him richer or greater. In return for loyalty, the vassal would find favor in the eyes of the king, be in his good graces. He would receive gifts, things he would never have had the ability to buy for himself. Pontius Pilate received the post of governor of Palestine through having such a patron.

As for fruit, the landlord sent his servants every year, every harvest season.

The vineyard is empowerment to do signs and wonders, like Moses did with Aaron's rod in Exodus 4. The fruit are the souls rescued from serving mammon. God expected Israel to respond quickly, whilst the memory of the great works He had done was still fresh in their minds.

createdtoworship · Jun 20, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Belief is a work of obedience that God has given man to do.

The works in Romans 4:2 refer to the perfect, flawless works the OT required for one to be justified.

Abraham did do obedient works, Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:17 and was justified by works James 2:21-24.

Paul does not contradict himself, for Paul required obedience to be justified in Romans 6:16-18....they obeyed from the heart, then were freed from sin/justified.

In Romans 6:16 Paul says we are serving one of two masters, we are serving either:
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

As long as one is not obeying God, then one is serving sin unto death. The only solution the Bible gives to keep one from serving "sin unto death" is serving "obedience unto righteousness".

I agree with the second half, I think you are misunderstanding belief. Belief is not obedience. While having belief is obeying a command to be saved by faith. That is not the same as saying belief is obedience. I think we agree for the most part on salvic repentance, but I don't think obedience saves us. From the scripture I mentioned in the last post, "blessed is the man who God imputes righteousness apart from works." This is directed toward the romans church of christian Jews. So no, it's not simply about moses law, but all works. It was the book of romans that made martin luther change His mind on salvation by faith alone. He did believe that a christian needed to commit to God, but not to perform works of the church. This subtle distinction allowed many wars and many people to die for their faith to be free from rome. But to say that we know better than martin luther, and that we have a more accurate version of the gospel is a bit proud. I don't disagree with His take on it. I believe we must turn from any known sin and recieve Christ as our Lord. And this is what it means to obey the gospel from the heart. However again, saying that belief is obedience is not accurate. They are not synonomous, else we be saved by works. James is talking about justification before man. If you look at someone and they are living a horrible life and they say they are saved, well to us, they are not. But God knows the heart, He knows if they are still learning about sin etc. I was homosexual for a year of my life. If obedience saved me, then I would have been lost during that year of my life. I don't think that was what happened. And the purpose of this thread is not to preach that type of message. I believe if you have a desire to be saved, and you are not proud of your sin. That it causes shame, that this is a sign of the Holy spirit. However if you are a homosexual and you are going to gay pride parades, and living in homosexual sex regularly, and you are not ashamed of that sin. And you think that you think you are saved by grace still. Well the Bible does not say that either. Shame over sin is a sign of life. IF that is gone, it's an indication of no life. But back to obedience and faith, they are salvically different concepts:
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Acts 13:38‭-‬39 NKJV

See obedience is a type of the law, and the law does not save.

TheSeabass · Jun 21, 2019

gradyll said:
I agree with the second half, I think you are misunderstanding belief. Belief is not obedience.

Romans 6:16 each person is either obeying God (obedience unto righteousness) or disobeying God (serving sin unto death). There is no middle ground, no other option(s).

Believing certainly is not disobedience to God (serving sin unto death) so it must be obedience unto righteousness.

The ASV rightly renders John 3:36 the following way "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is 'obedience unto righteousness' and unbelief is disobedience (serving sin unto death).

GradyII said:
While having belief is obeying a command to be saved by faith. That is not the same as saying belief is obedience.

First you post that "belief is obeying" then then say belief is not obedience. Again, there are only two options 1) disobedience - serving sin unto death or 2) obedience (obedience unto righteousness).

If believing is not obedience then it must be disobedience - serving sin unto death.

Romans 6:16--------obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 10:10-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, then belief must be obedience.

GradyII said:
I think we agree for the most part on salvic repentance, but I don't think obedience saves us.

Again, each of us is doing one of two things, either disobeying God -serving sin unto death or obeying God (obedience unto righteous). If obedience does not save us then the only alternative is disobedience saves us. Yet no verse ever says disobedience saves but disobedience is serving sin unto death, spiritual death, eternally lost.

GradyII said:
From the scripture I mentioned in the last post, "blessed is the man who God imputes righteousness apart from works." This is directed toward the romans church of christian Jews. So no, it's not simply about moses law, but all works. It was the book of romans that made martin luther change His mind on salvation by faith alone. He did believe that a christian needed to commit to God, but not to perform works of the church. This subtle distinction allowed many wars and many people to die for their faith to be free from rome. But to say that we know better than martin luther, and that we have a more accurate version of the gospel is a bit proud. I don't disagree with His take on it. I believe we must turn from any known sin and recieve Christ as our Lord. And this is what it means to obey the gospel from the heart. However again, saying that belief is obedience is not accurate. They are not synonomous, else we be saved by works. James is talking about justification before man. If you look at someone and they are living a horrible life and they say they are saved, well to us, they are not. But God knows the heart, He knows if they are still learning about sin etc. I was homosexual for a year of my life. If obedience saved me, then I would have been lost during that year of my life. I don't think that was what happened. And the purpose of this thread is not to preach that type of message. I believe if you have a desire to be saved, and you are not proud of your sin. That it causes shame, that this is a sign of the Holy spirit. However if you are a homosexual and you are going to gay pride parades, and living in homosexual sex regularly, and you are not ashamed of that sin. And you think that you think you are saved by grace still. Well the Bible does not say that either. Shame over sin is a sign of life. IF that is gone, it's an indication of no life. But back to obedience and faith, they are salvically different concepts:
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Acts 13:38‭-‬39 NKJV

See obedience is a type of the law, and the law does not save.

The only work in Romans chapters 1-4 that Paul eliminates from saving is the work of flawless law keeping required by the OT law of Moses. Paul shows in Rom 3 the Jews had an advantage over the Gentile in being given their own law, yet that OT law could not justify the Jew for the Jew did not keep it flawless but sinned, Romans 3:10-19. So it is not works of the law that justifies but faith, Romans 3:28 and faith/beleif is a work, it is obedience. Paul therefore excluded flawless works required by the OT law from justification and included obedient faith.

Luther's faith only is seriously flawed and has no Bible basis. Again, Paul shows in Romans 6:16 that we are serving one of two things, we will either be:
1) lost serving sin unto death
or
2) be saved serving obedience unto righteousness

Luther's faith only denies and eliminates serving obedience unto righteousness. That leaves only serving sin unto death.

createdtoworship · Jun 21, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Romans 6:16 each person is either obeying God (obedience unto righteousness) or disobeying God (serving sin unto death). There is no middle ground, no other option(s).

Believing certainly is not disobedience to God (serving sin unto death) so it must be obedience unto righteousness.

The ASV rightly renders John 3:36 the following way "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is 'obedience unto righteousness' and unbelief is disobedience (serving sin unto death).

First you post that "belief is obeying" then then say belief is not obedience. Again, there are only two options 1) disobedience - serving sin unto death or 2) obedience (obedience unto righteousness).

If believing is not obedience then it must be disobedience - serving sin unto death.

Romans 6:16--------obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 10:10-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, then belief must be obedience.

Again, each of us is doing one of two things, either disobeying God -serving sin unto death or obeying God (obedience unto righteous). If obedience does not save us then the only alternative is disobedience saves us. Yet no verse ever says disobedience saves but disobedience is serving sin unto death, spiritual death, eternally lost.

The only work in Romans chapters 1-4 that Paul eliminates from saving is the work of flawless law keeping required by the OT law of Moses. Paul shows in Rom 3 the Jews had an advantage over the Gentile in being given their own law, yet that OT law could not justify the Jew for the Jew did not keep it flawless but sinned, Romans 3:10-19. So it is not works of the law that justifies but faith, Romans 3:28 and faith/beleif is a work, it is obedience. Paul therefore excluded flawless works required by the OT law from justification and included obedient faith.

Luther's faith only is seriously flawed and has no Bible basis. Again, Paul shows in Romans 6:16 that we are serving one of two things, we will either be:
1) lost serving sin unto death
or
2) be saved serving obedience unto righteousness

Luther's faith only denies and eliminates serving obedience unto righteousness. That leaves only serving sin unto death.

The confusion is in saying belief is obedience. Typically obedience is typified in scripture as works. Only a few verses suggest faith is obedience. Faith is not works so to typify faith as a work is a contradiction. We must follow systematic theology. Tell concept of expositonal constancy. We take in to consideration all verse on a topic, not one or two. Someone can take one verse to prove suicide is a legitimate option for a believer, but it is not

TheSeabass · Jun 21, 2019

gradyll said:
The confusion is in saying belief is obedience. Typically obedience is typified in scripture as works. Only a few verses suggest faith is obedience. Faith is not works so to typify faith as a work is a contradiction. We must follow systematic theology. Tell concept of expositonal constancy. We take in to consideration all verse on a topic, not one or two. Someone can take one verse to prove suicide is a legitimate option for a believer, but it is not

One is either obeying God or disobeying God.
One will be either saved or lost.
The light is either off or on.

Each of the above are mutually exclusive, both cannot be happening at the same time.

If belief is NOT obedience then believing is disobedience (serving sin unto death) and what verse says believing is disobedience to God's will?

Yet believing is what saves, not what causes one to be lost.

Clearly then belief is obedience. This Biblical fact does not jibe with Luther's faith onlyism and is why the Bible does not teach faith only saves for the Bible does not contradict itself.

createdtoworship · Jun 21, 2019

TheSeabass said:
One is either obeying God or disobeying God.
One will be either saved or lost.
The light is either off or on.

Each of the above are mutually exclusive, both cannot be happening at the same time.

If belief is NOT obedience then believing is disobedience (serving sin unto death) and what verse says believing is disobedience to God's will?

Yet believing is what saves, not what causes one to be lost.

Clearly then belief is obedience. This Biblical fact does not jibe with Luther's faith onlyism and is why the Bible does not teach faith only saves for the Bible does not contradict itself.

it's not cut and dry like this. Belief is obedience, but not obedience to law.

Wordkeeper · Jun 21, 2019

gradyll said:
it's not cut and dry like this. Belief is obedience, but not obedience to law.

In a family, loyalty isn't defined by rules, laws. It is a binary: those who are for God don't do ANYTHING against God. Not even disbelieve.

TheSeabass · Jun 21, 2019

gradyll said:
it's not cut and dry like this. Belief is obedience, but not obedience to law.

Yes it is cut and dry like that.

One is either saved or lost, no middle ground.
One is either obeying God by working God's righteousness (believing) or disobeying God by working unrighteousness (unbelief), no middle ground.

Belief is obedience and not just a mere mental assent of the mind.

createdtoworship · Jun 21, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Yes it is cut and dry like that.

One is either saved or lost, no middle ground.
One is either obeying God by working God's righteousness (believing) or disobeying God by working unrighteousness (unbelief), no middle ground.

Belief is obedience and not just a mere mental assent of the mind.

if that was the case, then the wording of the gospel sections of the majority would not mention faith at all, they would say "obedience of belief."

and while it is technically the same, the Bible simply does not word it that way in the majority of cases, so I don't do that either.

Wordkeeper · Jun 21, 2019

gradyll said:
if that was the case, then the wording of the gospel sections of the majority would not mention faith at all, they would say "obedience of belief."

and while it is technically the same, the Bible simply does not word it that way in the majority of cases, so I don't do that either.

Pistis is wrongly translated as belief today, when in the Ancient Near East, it meant loyalty.

A friend of mine, a historical lexicographer wrote a book on this. Here is a related article:

Theo Geek: Faith is Obedience
A. J. Wallace

Quote
How do you tell if two words mean the same thing?

Imagine we didn’t know what “the Bible” or “the scriptures” meant, and we came across sentences that said:
“The Bible is a collection of religious writings”
“The scriptures are a collection of religious writings”
“The Bible was written between 2 and 3 thousand years ago”
“The scriptures were written between 2 and 3 thousand years ago”
“The Bible is holy to Christians”
“The scriptures are holy to Christians”
It would reasonable to think that the Bible and scriptures are two different words for the same thing. The more pairs of sentences we have that attribute identical information to both words, the more and more certain we can be that the words are identical in meaning.

Here I will use this method to argue that the word which is translated “faith” or “belief” (pistis) in the bible is a synonym with obedience. I have argued before that the correct translation of pistis is “faithfulness” (and not“faith” nor “belief”).
Red coloring indicates a verse containing “obey” and blue indicates a verse containing pistis (“faith” or “believe”). Headings indicate what each section is saying.

====
Blessed is the one who hears the gospel and believes/obeys it.

Luke 11:28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!"

Rom 10:14b And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Gal 3:9 For this reason, those who believe are blessedwith Abraham who believed.

Can you lose your salvation

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He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

In the grip of grace

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He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Newbie

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

In the grip of grace

Newbie

Well-Known Member

In the grip of grace

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