Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Phil W said:

Which one?
Rom 6:4 or Rom 8:4-?


How does that insinuate that we must leave this world to be free from sin?
Especially when Rom 6:7 says baptism frees us from sin?


Which one kept doing the sins?

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Both skin and mind are Carnal. John 6:63

Phil W said:

Freedom from sin, and brotherhood with Christ is available to all men.

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I can only say this, outright... a man who claims sinless perfection in the Carnal has received their portion before men.

Phil W said:

I call grace the mercy of God.
And by His mercy we have been handed everything we need to remain faithfully obedient to Him.
Others use grace as excuse to sin.

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Obedient?

Because the Blood Of Jesus is Grace, and you are now sinlessly perfect... It appears you no longer need the blood of Jesus Christ.

Because you are well, you no longer need a physician.

Phil W said:

Freedom from sin, and brotherhood with Christ is available to all men.

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Okay... Phil... you like the Light and Dark Verbiage That John uses... so do I.

I’ll express this through Mass Exigesis of Cannon.

In the beginning the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the deep. In this initial vision... we see a dichotomy.

Light - Life
Darkness - Absence Of Life

God Created! The next Dichotomy...

Creator - All things were made through Him
Creation - Romans 1 to Romans 2 uses this verbiage towards this dichotomy

John ques off of this Dichotomy.

The surface of the Deep is simultaneously allegorical, because we see the source of everything and all Life, preparing to impart Life.

As the Eternal, Uncreated Son was born of the Virgin Mary, He was imparted... Born into Creation.

“Let there be Light”... and that Light first mentioned isn’t the Sun! That Eternal Light is imparted as the first life within all of Creation... The Infinite, Eternal, Uncreated Son is the Light of the world!

Let’s go towards Adam...

The dust of the earth, with The Son Of God positioned over it is another Dichotomy...

The Son - Source Of all Life
The Dust - Absent Of Life

We see Jesus reveal Who He is in reference to what is about to be seen in Genesis here (John 9:6)

The Son shapes Adam from the DEAD dust of the earth.

Dichotomy...

The Son - Life
Adam - Dead

The Son Breaths the Pneuma into Adam

Creator + Creation = Living Soul

Now, let’s fast forward to John...

John uses the Creation verbiage over and over!

The Darkness did not want to come to the Light, because it LOVED it’s darkness. In the Light, the Darkness is dispelled and the deeds of darkness are REVEALED.

Jesus is the LIGHT
Mankind is the Darkness

Now, let’s review a theological fact that John plus the Synoptic Gospels, Reveal...

Jesus meshed with Sinners and welcomed Sinners.

Jesus was angered by the self professed, sinlessly perfect, Religious Leaders.

Sinners know they are Darkness with Dark Deeds

Religious, Sinlessly Perfect, Leaders, professed to be a form of Light!

Now... Let’s point out another Scriptural Dichotomy.

There is the Morning Star and the BRIGHT Morning Star.

The transliteration “Lucifer” comes from the words “Light Bearer”. This refers to a Star or Planet. In particular, it binds to a navigational Star or planet used by Sailors. This binds to the Angel Of Light phrases, scripture turns.

Jesus is the True NORTH... so to speak. Jesus is the Navigational Aid that is TRUE!

In these two mentioned lights... one is FALSE light that will run a ship aground!

Jesus is the Bright Morning Star, because He is THEE Light and will navigate a ship to Safety.

When Sinless perfection is professed, within this dust of death... (Captive to the False Morning Star)... the Darkness is professing to be light. This is the exact meaning of these verses.... (Matthew 6:22-24). Disagree? Hebrews 2:14 ... Ephesians 2:2 ... Death is at work in your very members even now! We are currently born... hurtling towards DEATH in these bodies! It is an undeniable fact! Unless Jesus comes and glorifies is... we will physically die!

Professing Carnal Perfection is not walking in the Spirit, but by ALL scripture, Being Darkness!

Of all Heresies... beneath Denial Of the Divinity Of Jesus Christ... it is the most destructive... because it is the Leavening and foundation of ALL condemnation scripture!

It’s actually better to be an Atheist than to profess Sinless Perfection, because the Atheist doesn’t know The Blessed Hope! The Believer that Knows the Blessed Hope, and is illuminated by the Light... then goes forward to declare themselves without blemish (Other than being Atoned for, Justified and Propitiated for)... is claiming Carnal Perfection... amidst the Illumination of the Light Of the (Romans 8:9).

There is no mercy in this teaching as it boasts that it is better than the rest, and equal to God in literal Stature Of Righteousness. The idea taught is it’s either Perfection or Damnation! Well, it’s true! We have a choice! Perfection or Damnation! God’s Perfection or Our Damnation! He is Perfect Light! We are Darkness!

We must admit we are mere clay vessels!

This is the meaning of these verses... (2 Corinthians 4:7-9)

I’ll add this last bit... in closing... To declare yourself Sinlessly Perfect in the Flesh, is to be utilizing the Law of Sin and Death as a reference and believe it or not... that Law is fornication and adultery for us to utilize on ourself and others, for any other purpose than to show and know our NEED for Jesus.

I have been as plain as I can be.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

The Righterzpen said:

LOL - When ever the wicked perish in their sin; God has "forced" His will upon them in taking their lives. How often do the unregenerate shake their fists at the sky for hurricanes and earthquakes, and even things like war; which is of man's own making?

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I'd have a hard time laughing about a "god" who sends anyone to eternal torment without regard to their own will. That silly theology is funny only to the extent that it's not true, if God, IOW, did not create them to be sinners or evil to begin with.

The Righterzpen said:

LOL - Heaven is stocked with the elect and hell with the reprobate. No one makes it into the kingdom if they are not elect.

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Yes, but the elect are only those who've willfully participated, who've made their calling and election sure due to their own choice, independent of God's will in the matter even as He gives all sufficient grace to will rightly. But maybe you're right; if God was so evil as to predestine some to eternal torment, then why place them there at the beginning of creation? Why not make things worse yet, why not first send humanity into a world where great injustices are committed by created beings against other created beings, where evil can be directly experienced, even by those 5 year olds who get raped, tortured etc? Heck, they probably deserve it anyway, right, worthless little wretches that they are? At least it feels better to look at it that way, huh?

The Righterzpen said:

Why'd God allow Adam to sin?
Answer: Without the fall there'd be no setting into motion the greater redemptive plan! One can not be redeemed if there is no awareness of the offense against God. That was the purpose in the giving of the law. The first command given to all creation came right after Eve was created; that was "be fruitful and multiply". Adam called her "The mother of all living." because ultimately the Redeemer would be connected to humanity by being born of the seed of the woman.

The fall was inevitable because good and evil still existed in the world. Adam and Eve just had no knowledge of it until they transgressed.

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The Fall was not inevitable because if that were true then God is the primary and direct cause of all evil, making Him less than satan in terms of goodness. For God to give a command that He wished to be disobeyed is absurd.

The Righterzpen said:

As far as someone "becoming willing" to be redeemed in the first place:

1. The Holy Ghost has to awaken them that they begin looking for God to begin with.
2. They have to come under conviction that their sin needs to be dealt with.
3. They come to recognize the Redeemer that they now intrinsically know that they need.
4. They repent of their sin. (Note John came with baptism of repentance before believers were told to baptize people in the name of Father, Son, Holy Ghost.)
5. They believe. (Messiah is manifest after giving of the law.)
6. All these steps are engineered by God and this whole process is set in motion by the Holy Spirit.

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And yet all that engineering, all that grace, is resistible. Man can say "no" at the beginning, or at any step down the road later on.

Who hopes for what is already seen?

Romans 8:18-25 NASB

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. [19] For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. [20] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope [21] that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. [23] And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. [24] For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? [25] But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

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mdamon0501 said:

Who hopes for what is already seen?

Romans 8:18-25 NASB

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Heb 6:19 Cross References (25 Verses)

And on matters of Salvation being ours now... in compliment to your point... the concept is even Old Testament

Psalms 42:11 ; Psalms 43:5 ; Isaiah 12:2

Oscarr said:

I was responding to our Charismatic friend who says that those who struggle with sin and the flesh are not saved. You need to read my posts which explain my position quite clearly. I don't believe that baptism in water remits our sins. Only the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Our baptism doesn't save. Jesus does, and it is based on God's grace through our faith. Baptism is a work of sanctification after we are converted. If we make baptism a prerequisite for salvation we are basing salvation on works which has no value to God at all.

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John 15:1-10 is very clear that works are necessary to receive salvation.

Psalm 40:4-13 NASB


How blessed is the man who has made the LORD his trust, And has not turned to the proud, nor to those who lapse into falsehood. [5] Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders which You have done, And Your thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with You. If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. [6] Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. [7] Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. [8] I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart." [9] I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, O LORD, You know. [10] I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart; I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation. [11] You, O LORD, will not withhold Your compassion from me; Your lovingkindness and Your truth will continually preserve me. [12] For evils beyond number have surrounded me; My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to see; They are more numerous than the hairs of my head, And my heart has failed me. [13] Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me; Make haste, O LORD, to help me.

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:1-10 is very clear that works are necessary to receive salvation.

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John 15:1-10 is about the Husbandman.... the Father... and the Son is the Vine.

The Body of Christ is comprised of Israel and Non Israel.

Because of a portion of Israel’s unbelief and assault on the Gospel... A portion of Israel was broken off. Romans 11 makes this clear.

Right now... The Gospel has 3 phases...

1) Hearing - Rejection can occur here
2) Believing - The Father Draws ALL humanity through the Son... (1 John 2:2) once Initial Belief occurs.. the proverb of the seed sewer takes place. It is during this time the Father begins to Draw a Believer through the Son and the Son’s imparted Holy Spirit, into True Belief..... (Turning back to Self Reliance can occur here).
3) A Believer is Fully Drawn into Saving Faith (Hebrews 4). (Saved And Sealed permanently)

The misnomer that a Believer in stage 3 can be snatched from the Father’s Hand is unscriptural. A Believer in stage 3... WILL not cease to abide in The Son.

Faith is sealed to True Faith, Imparted by God and Exodus 14:14 is well in Progress.

mdamon0501 said:

Psalm 40:4-13 NASB

How blessed is the man who has made the LORD his trust, And has not turned to the proud, nor to those who lapse into falsehood. [5] Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders which You have done, And Your thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with You. If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. [6] Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. [7] Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. [8] I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."

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Yes, and to the extent that this has become true in us with God's grace and our willingness to cooperate with Him, to the extent that "I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart", we are truly sons of the Most High God.

fhansen said:

Yes, and to the extent that this has become true in us with God's grace and our willingness to cooperate with Him, to the extent that "I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart", we are truly sons of the Most High God.

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I think you are missing the point and putting too much faith in the will of man. Do you believe in Total Depravity? Sure, have a willing heart to obey God's word, such is an evidence of the Spirit, but there is no scripture which tells us that we are capable of being in obedience without the help of Christ. Hence these words from Romans 9

Romans 9:14-20 NASB

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! [15] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." [16] So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." [18] So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. [19] You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" [20] On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

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Grip Docility said:

John 15:1-10 is about the Husbandman.... the Father... and the Son is the Vine.

The Body of Christ is comprised of Israel and Non Israel.

Because of a portion of Israel’s unbelief and assault on the Gospel... A portion of Israel was broken off. Romans 11 makes this clear.

Right now... The Gospel has 3 phases...

1) Hearing - Rejection can occur here
2) Believing - The Father Draws ALL humanity through the Son... (1 John 2:2) once Initial Belief occurs.. the proverb of the seed sewer takes place. It is during this time the Father begins to Draw a Believer through the Son and the Son’s imparted Holy Spirit, into True Belief..... (Turning back to Self Reliance can occur here).
3) A Believer is Fully Drawn into Saving Faith (Hebrews 4). (Saved And Sealed permanently)

The misnomer that a Believer in stage 3 can be snatched from the Father’s Hand is unscriptural. A Believer in stage 3... WILL not cease to abide in The Son.

Faith is sealed to True Faith, Imparted by God and Exodus 14:14 is well in Progress.

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Sorry but that is incorrect, Romans 11 and John 15 are two completely different teachings. Both do support the idea that salvation can be lost but for different reasons. Also notice in John 15:2 and John 15:6 no one has snatched anyone from The Father’s hand. It is The Father that has cut them off from the vine, cast them away to wither, and cast them into the fire.

mdamon0501 said:

I think you are missing the point and putting too much faith in the will of man. Do you believe in Total Depravity? Sure, have a willing heart to obey God's word, such is an evidence of the Spirit, but there is no scripture which tells us that we are capable of being in obedience without the help of Christ. Hence these words from Romans 9

Romans 9:14-20 NASB

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I will confess... I do not believe in the disabling of man’s will... and in this sense... I do not subscribe to the specific doctrine of total depravity.

What allows you and I to theologically be in step is a mechanism I note, called “Privation”.

“Privation”

(a state in which things that are essential for human well-being such as food and warmth are scarce or lacking.)

What this means to me is that in Eden, mankind was in the True Vine... theologically speaking. Mankind had all provision of Food, Health, Wealth, Love, Companionship, Selfless Authority and Sustenance... etc. etc. This included access to the Tree Of Life. I see the Tree Of Life as literal and simultaneously a symbol of Being In the Son. Mind you... the “did man eat of the Tree” Question spawns debates of all types... but is irrelevant to this point.

Mankind was deceived... (Specifically Eve) by a malevolent Force Of corrupted Will, as in Will that was so arrogant it fancied itself as wise as God!

This malevolent Force convinces Eve to join in its arrogance. People read Romans 1 to condemn a certain group of sinners... but the actual context is Temple prostitution. Leave it to mankind to fixate on the Carnal and ignore the Spiritual!

Spiritually speaking... Eve became Spiritually unfaithful to God and bound to Satan as her governing leader. She was literally subject to “Death”... which is a fine name for the Deceiver with all scripture taken into context. (We turn to dust and his curse was to “eat dust”)

Temple prostitution on the other hand wasn’t just a Spiritual infidelity, but people that literally thought sexually joining themselves to the Religious elite would draw them closer to God! This is why the Romans 1 Verbiage circles towards placing the Creation over the Creator!

When Paul talks about fornication with a prostitute... he is likening joining with a false gospel to Copulating with a temple priest!

You know how “gentle” Paul is with his analogies, This even binds to “cutting the whole thing off”... because Paul is calling people of false gospels... “harlots”... sexually joined to one another... which Disgusts Paul so much he wishes they would be unable to blaspheme God with their wicked False Gospels! (Unable to join to one another)

The male aspect of the analogy binds to men who speak in place of God and thus declare themselves ... “God”... and thus teach other men to join in their Pride. This removes the “female” subordination of the “marriage” from the equation of Hebrew Patriarchy (Always intended to point to God) and makes all members of a Prostitute Body, Men “Joined” to men! These men place their faith in one another and thusly are an abominable body comprised of Creations that have placed the Creation over the Creator and thus are turned over to “Their Reprobate Minds”.

These people are of the same Spiritual type as those that sacrificed their children to Ba’al! They are Murderous of Spiritual Truth and Blaspheme the Blessed Hope.

Round about to say... No man has responded to Privation without Sinning except the Son Of God, God the Son... (Proven in the wilderness) thus proving God is the Champion and defender of Humanity... not only because He is our Creator and Savior, but He is the only perfectly Selfless Being in all of Existence. In the face of Privation, God does not choose SELF. He is Infinite in Being, in every wonderful way and able, by His Will, to know Evil and never choose it!

Bottom line, other than God the Son, The Son Of God, mankind proves itself selfish and thus sinful, in the flesh... Daily.

IMO... in knowledge that our mechanisms of understanding probably differ here.

I figured now was a fair time to share my insanity.

mdamon0501 said:

I think you are missing the point and putting too much faith in the will of man. Do you believe in Total Depravity? Sure, have a willing heart to obey God's word, such is an evidence of the Spirit, but there is no scripture which tells us that we are capable of being in obedience without the help of Christ. Hence these words from Romans 9

Romans 9:14-20 NASB

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And yet there are so many verses that tell us that we can refuse the grace of a willing heart. That's the place where man's will comes into play. I have little faith in man and yet that will is exactly what God desires to draw, to coax, to educate, to align with His perfect will. That's been His patient work from the beginning until now and that goes far in explaining why it takes so long, why all the drama and evil and pain and suffering throughout the centuries have occured, have been allowed to occur, since the Fall.

BNR32FAN said:

Sorry but that is incorrect, Romans 11 and John 15 are two completely different teachings. Both do support the idea that salvation can be lost but for different reasons. Also notice in John 15:2 and John 15:6 no one has snatched anyone from The Father’s hand. It is The Father that has cut them off from the vine, cast them away to wither, and cast them into the fire.

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Fire has many meanings in scripture. People get so excited about the LAKE of Fire... but they forget these verses

What Does the Bible Say About Refiners-fire?

Zechariah 13:9 is looking awfully interesting.

Grip Docility said:

Fire has many meanings in scripture. People get so excited about the LAKE of Fire... but they forget these verses

What Does the Bible Say About Refiners-fire?

Zechariah 13:9 is looking awfully interesting.

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Lol you come up with a different angle every time. It’s never consistent with the previous one.

BNR32FAN said:

Lol you come up with a different angle every time. It’s never consistent with the previous one.

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Oh but it is the same. Romans 11, Acts Of the Apostles 1, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14

I simply avoid going into depth...most of the time, because modern dispensational belief and Covenant Supersession Theology, alike, do not necessarily consider what is in scripture, within plain view.

This is a completely different thread, though.


Joel 2 is looking real juicy, too.

fhansen said:

I'd have a hard time laughing about a "god" who sends anyone to eternal torment without regard to their own will. That silly theology is funny only to the extent that it's not true, if God, IOW, did not create them to be sinners or evil to begin with.

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Well, maybe you have a certain point here? Although acts of Divine intervention happen to human beings against their will all the time; (natural disasters, accidents). You are correct in one respect that no one goes to hell who ultimately doesn't want to be there for their flagrant disobedience to God in this life.

The natural man, who hates God to begin with, is always looking for a way to "get out from under God's thumb" so he can "enjoy his sin in peace". So because he so desired the absence of God in this life (particularly and especially the absence of God's mercy); he gets exactly what he wants in the next - the utter and absolute absence of God's mercy.

So in that sense, you're right - no one goes to hell who doesn't want to be there!

fhansen said:

Yes, but the elect are only those who've willfully participated, who've made their calling and election sure due to their own choice, independent of God's will in the matter even as He gives all sufficient grace to will rightly. But maybe you're right; if God was so evil as to predestine some to eternal torment, then why place them there at the beginning of creation? Why not make things worse yet, why not first send humanity into a world where great injustices are committed by created beings against other created beings, where evil can be directly experienced, even by those 5 year olds who get raped, tortured etc? Heck, they probably deserve it anyway, right, worthless little wretches that they are? At least it feels better to look at it that way, huh?

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Here is your error though - everyone starts out in state named above; (desirous of the absence of God)!

And here is your other error: no one who seeks God does so in absence of His will. We don't seek God period because we don't want God. That is the state of all humanity. That is what it means to be dead in trespass and sin.

See you are assuming there is something inherently naturally spiritually "good", "awake" or "alive" in man. Some "spark" that brings about spiritual life. But the truth of the reality is that does not exist. Dead men have no will. One has to be made alive in order to have a will to act upon. Because your will is affected by both your sin as well as your fallen nature - it's not "free". None of us have a "free will" as it pertains to God's demands for us to obey.

Now obviously in this life, you do have the ability to make choices independent of the desires of others (God included); but that is not a "free will" in theological terms because those choices are driven by a nature totally corrupted by sin. That is what "total depravity" is; but "total depravity" is not the same thing as being "depraved totally". The full extent of the sinfulness any of us could exhibit is actually restrained by God.

God does not predestine anyone to hell and ultimately the lake of fire. That is a consequence of sin they've committed. Those are the wages they earned.

Now you could argue; (which you seem to be with this "just throw them in hell at the beginning of creation" statement) that because of the fallen nature and being dead in trespass and sin that "Oh this is God's fault anyway because I don't have a free will." Though you'd have no justification of accusing God because the fall was man's choice and if you were Adam, you would have made the same decision he did. (That is why the fall was inevitable.)

You'd certainly have reason to despair if God did not provided a redemption plan. But you have nothing to complain about because God is gracious enough to not only address the wrath of God aspect of your predicament; but also the dead in trespass and sin aspect of your predicament. If you can't believe and God was not willing to make you able; that would certainly be cause for great despair. But that is not the case! So... maybe you should thank God instead of being mad at him for your own state of deadness.

So, why not send an innocent human into an evil world where injustices and crimes are committed by evil creatures?

Well you know what - THAT is exactly what happened to Jesus Christ! God "throws" His only begotten Son into a created world where - what happens? He get's murdered! Now obviously he was not 5 years old when this happened, yet he was morally more innocent than any 5 year old of the first Adam. And of course we can't "blame" God the Father when the Son agreed to willingly take on this task back before creation ever commenced.

Yet to address the evil of humans who rape and kill 5 year olds. You level these accusations against God claiming He is evil; yet if that were true, you would not be offended by people who rape and murder 5 year olds. It's quite the fallacy to accuse God of being evil because humanity is. Yet in the end, your accusation does nothing to God because you are not eternal and self existent. So, of what ever accusation you desire to throw at Him - He's where the buck stops!

fhansen said:

The Fall was not inevitable because if that were true then God is the primary and direct cause of all evil, making Him less than satan in terms of goodness. For God to give a command that He wished to be disobeyed is absurd.

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It is not that God wished for the command to be disobeyed as much as He knew that it would. There is a difference there. Yet again God "compensated" for the consequence He knew would come about. And compensated for it in such a way as to bring Himself glory. It really is a genius plan.

And if you want to read a theory on the origin of evil. Here you go:

Theory on the origin of evil

fhansen said:

And yet all that engineering, all that grace, is resistible. Man can say "no" at the beginning, or at any step down the road later on.

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Yet those who are truly awakened don't resist because they know their only hope is in God alone!

Grip Docility said:

Oh but it is the same. Romans 11, Acts Of the Apostles 1, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14

I simply avoid going into depth...most of the time, because modern dispensational belief and Covenant Supersession Theology, alike, do not necessarily consider what is in scripture, within plain view.

This is a completely different thread, though.

Joel 2 is looking real juicy, too.

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I prefer Orthodox beliefs, they’re more straightforward and don’t require jumping around from one verse in one book to another verse in another book to determine what was clearly said by Jesus. You see there’s no secret code to what Jesus was saying. It’s a simple discussion of the importance of bearing fruit and abiding in Christ. There’s no hidden meaning.